I KNEW it was gonna happen someday! I KNEW it!

[Bear]

Got this off slashdot.org and followed the link to here:

http://support.uo.com/advancedcharacter.html

Oh my.

Existing player reactions to this can be found here:

http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=uouhall&Number=3323534&page=0&view=&sb=5

...among other places.

OK. They are finaly moving into direct competition with eBay. Not to speak of which, Griefers are going to find strafing some newbies a little more challenging than before. Of course, this also means that a griefer who really wants to get up to speed fast can broil the true newbies alive more readily.

I gotta know what you designer types think of this. I can't stand it!:)

Bear
http://theforge.smithwrite.com

[JessicaM]

Originally posted by Bear
Got this off slashdot.org and followed the link to here:

http://support.uo.com/advancedcharacter.html

Oh my.

Existing player reactions to this can be found here:

http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=uouhall&Number=3323534&page=0&view=&sb=5

...among other places.

OK. They are finaly moving into direct competition with eBay. Not to speak of which, Griefers are going to find strafing some newbies a little more challenging than before. Of course, this also means that a griefer who really wants to get up to speed fast can broil the true newbies alive more readily.

I gotta know what you designer types think of this. I can't stand it!:)

Bear
http://theforge.smithwrite.com

Initially, I was shaking my head over this one. On further thought, UO's situation is unique enough that the Advanced Character system may not have serious effects on the quality of the game.

There is certainly a danger here of the service being used as an 'Insta-Griefer' bonanza; I suspect that is part of why the price is $30, to act as a deterrent. Griefers are notoriously price-tolerent. It also creates the opportunity for Insta-MegaMules, which may or may not be a bad thing.

Beyond that, though, mixing these characters with the general population on a shard somewhat cheapens the whole player experience. This is ameliorated by the fact that UO is a mature game with a stable subscriber base, one which has grown little over the past two years; the likely buyers here are not new players, but established players looking to branch out and try skills they haven't had the time to fool around with. The service is expensive enough that they aren't likely to get a lot of new players using it to save time to test-drive the game .

I would never do this for a newly-launched game, or one that still has a significant growth trend, without a lot of thought and consultation with the players and other designers. For a five year old game with a static playerbase, I'm not sure I see great harm coming from this.

-Jessica

[AngelKnight2780]

Hmmm...but, on the other hand, consider that RL LARP groups often allow players to trade money for skill points to a point. (Usually, it's a yearly limit of money, and the transfer is heavily weighted on the money side (lots of cash for some points)) The system allows players who aren't willing to devote as much time into the game, but still want to have fun to be able to function.

Where I see the problem is that there's a sense of elitism among the players that put their time into the game, feeling that such systems cheapen their time. Why can't I on a limited scale trade one of my limited resources (money) for another (time)? Remember, as you like to keep pointing out, now these MMOGs are aiming not for fanatics, but the mainstream gamer. This means a whole new approach to how players can enter.

Personally, I'm more concerend about the "D&D" atmosphere of these games, where the advancement and status system is built around combat. I'd like to see a game that has several cursae honorae within the engine, and that a player can choose which one to follow.

[Pamoya]

I've never played UO, so my assessment might not be exactly fair. But my first thought is that the game must not be very fun if people are willing to pay to avoid playing it. Why do we always have games that are painful to level at, that take weeks and months before you get anywhere interesting? People talk about all the effort they've put into the game as if it were torture that they've proudly survived. It's as if they are admitting that the first 85 pts are a boring time-sink and it is only after that point that the game gets good.

Why do we all continue to pay for games that beat up on us? I'm really asking, because I do it as well and I think it is kind of sick...

[JessicaM]

Originally posted by Pamoya
I've never played UO, so my assessment might not be exactly fair. But my first thought is that the game must not be very fun if people are willing to pay to avoid playing it. Why do we always have games that are painful to level at, that take weeks and months before you get anywhere interesting? People talk about all the effort they've put into the game as if it were torture that they've proudly survived. It's as if they are admitting that the first 85 pts are a boring time-sink and it is only after that point that the game gets good.

Why do we all continue to pay for games that beat up on us? I'm really asking, because I do it as well and I think it is kind of sick...

Damn good question. Now if only I had a damn good answer...

[AngelKnight2780]

Personally, I blame Dungeons & Dragons. Why? Because it is the biggest roleplaying game out there - most gamers have played it. The result is that it has in a subtle way poisoned how we see certain game mechanics, such as character development and the cursus honorum of the game (how a character progresses in terms of social standing). I would like to see:

Removal of levels - levels are arbitrary, and do not faithfully replicate how we develop as a person. Instead, a system such as Shadowrun's karma pool would be more faithful - the character would develop in a more natural way.

More paths to follow - One of the biggest problems with D&D is its focus on combat, and sadly, that seems to have passed on to these games as well. It seems that for the most part, the only way to power is to kill everything in sight. There should be other ways to gain power and clout, and to play the game - remember, Attila the Hun was averted at the gates of Rome by the Pope.

[Psychochild]

Originally posted by Pamoya
Why do we all continue to pay for games that beat up on us? I'm really asking, because I do it as well and I think it is kind of sick...

I think I can offer part of an answer.

Let's say you like swimming. When you were young, were you thrown into the English Channel, directed to the other shore, and told "Okay, now swim!"? No, you probably started in a kiddy pool when you were really young, graduating up to larger and larger swimming venues. Yet, once you get competent enough to do something like swimming the English Channel, things like kiddy pools don't hold any interest for you, right? It's beneath your ability.

It's similar in online games. You learn your basic abilities at low levels then learn your advanced tactics at higher levels. Why do people hate eBay characters? Because the person doesn't have the player (not character) experience to handle that higher level character. You don't want the mage to be asking "How do I cast spells again? Which spells are good?" when you're fighting a tough monster. Going through the lower levels gives you the training necessary for the higher levels. Yet, when you start a new character, you already know half the mechanics from playing the first character.

So, I guess the question is, how do you separate out the true newbies that should learn the game mechanics from people working up a second character? The UO example seems to be pretty good, because it allows experienced players to get past the "I'm new here and learning the mechanics" phase to "I know what I'm doing, get me up to level X and I can take it from there."

Originally posted by AngelKnight2780
One of the biggest problems with D&D is its focus on combat, and sadly, that seems to have passed on to these games as well.

That's because combat is easy to do. Lots of games have done it in the past and it's a simple process to have the computer automate all the "dice rolling". Other means to advancement are hard if not impossible to implment in code. Think about something like social advancement that very hard to control from a development point of view. Thinking about thinks like social balance, social activities, etc, as a deveoper is a large step above considering these issues for combat.

My point of view,

[Stix]

Yet much of the gaming market decries the current combat systems and many of the companies who have implemented these systems take no heed. From a developer's point of view, it may seem reasonable to implement the simple design, but are we forgetting that innovations must be made sometime or another?

[Mylon]

Originally posted by Pamoya
Why do we all continue to pay for games that beat up on us? I'm really asking, because I do it as well and I think it is kind of sick...

A very good observation indeed. I quickly get tired of games and MUDs that require bashing of the same monster/monster type with the same two to three commands over and over just to get a level then repeat the process on a bigger monster. I think the basic game design is inherently stupid.

Sure, Dungeons and Dragons may focus on combat with levels which in turn bleeds over to MMORPGs, but it works on the table top because of two main reasons: the quests (with a good DM) are story oriented. Combat is just something that happens along the way and (again, with a good DM) if it can be avoided, all of the better. That is, adventurers typically don't go into a dungeon just to bash monsters in the idea that they'd become more powerful. They go in to get loot 'cause then they'd have something to retire on or because someone is asking/paying them to get something, or some other reason. Furthermore, the monsters the characters face can be a fairly wide variety and they in turn level fairly quickly, while MMORPGs leave players to bash the same two monsters for sometimes multiple levels across many hours. It works in D&D, but it translates poorly to MMORPGs.

Levels on the other hand are mostly a tool of the tabletop gaming environment. That is, levels are relatively easy to design and create (for the maker of the system), and play/advance. I can draw up a level 1 D&D character in about 20 minutes, while a 100 point GURPS character can easily take an hour if I have a pretty good idea of the character I want to build. Computers can handle more complext methods, so there's really no reason they shouldn't aim for something better.

Discworld MUD is a nice example of what MMORPGs should strive for. Skills advance through use and they can also be advanced with the use of experience, which is earned through simply being online or using class abilities, in addition to the usual kill-the-enemy approach. Thus, players have plenty of methods aside from just killing stuff.

[sieggy]

I think the whole brings forth the level treadmill that is such a burning issue in MMORPGs today. From my D&D days one of the things that I remember was that it was still fun to be low level. With a good DM the campaign could still be fun, despite your characters more limited abilities. Unfortunately, as it has been pointed out, leveling is often the pregame in most MMORPGs today.

However, paying for levels is certainly not a solution. Regardless of however poor the design mechanism is for building a character paying is a risky and bad idea. Chances are your players who pay for the service are newbies looking for a quick fix or potentials griefers who want a quick way in to cause some havoc. Your bread and butter players who burn insane hours and put up with the slow leveling will feel quite robbed and upset.
As they are your main customer base you want to keep them happy and intrigued and this will certainly prompt more than a few to jump ship to another game. Even worse (from the player perspective) is the success of the service in which case it becomes an essential item for survival. Not only are you forced to pay the money to be on even ability with your peers it masks a poor leveling system which, if it was better designed, would negate the drive to have such a service to begin with.

All in all its two steps back for Ultima Online, imho. I feel sorry for their player base. :(

[Bear]

What always bugs me more than any other single factor is the repetition. For example, if I wanted to start a new character on a different EQ server that was reasonalby similar in type/class as my original character (to join up with friends who had moved to another server for instance) then I had to quite literally repeat every single step of the leveling process in precisely the same way as for the original character.

Even if I was changing classes, the newbie areas are limited at best when it comes to options. To optimize my level advancement, there was only way "best" (meaning most efficient and having the highest profit/time invested ratio) way available. I had to do the same quests in the same order, I had to kill the same mob the same required number of times to achieve the same level of faction that would allow me to obtain the same quest from the same NPC to gain the same reward from the same "next" NPC that would allow me to gain the same next quest in the mindless sequence.

Once you have gone through the early levels in many games, there is just no way that any thinking person can withstand the lethal boredom of it. The low levels are often, and I mean quite literally, exactly the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over andoverandoverandoverandoverandover.........

Bear
http://theforge.smithwrite.com

[Mylon]

How many bunny rabbits do you have to kill until you can start to enjoy the game? That's what these game designers should be asking themselves. And Sieggy is right, allowing people to buy characters that are finally in the "fun" area is just a mask for a poor levelling system.

I personally find MMORPGs a rip off as it is. They charge about $30-40 for the software, and then you have to pay to actually play the game. All just so you can get a MUD with pretty graphics. I'll stick to the world of text, where I don't pay for poor game design and rightfully deserve it if I get it anyway. This "advanced character" service sorta smells like a crippleware scheme. That is, give us a little bit of money and well give you some of the program. Give us more money and only then will we make it more enjoyable.

[JessicaM]

Originally posted by Mylon
How many bunny rabbits do you have to kill until you can start to enjoy the game? That's what these game designers should be asking themselves. And Sieggy is right, allowing people to buy characters that are finally in the "fun" area is just a mask for a poor levelling system.

In general, I agree, too. In UO's case, since they are one of the very few online worlds that support eBay sales of characters and items, the Advanced Character Service is unlikely to hurt the game much. If anything, it will drive down the eBay prices.

Originally posted by Mylon
I personally find MMORPGs a rip off as it is. They charge about $30-40 for the software, and then you have to pay to actually play the game. All just so you can get a MUD with pretty graphics. I'll stick to the world of text, where I don't pay for poor game design and rightfully deserve it if I get it anyway.

SOMEBODY is paying for the text games to be available; the bandwidth and hardware don't just spring up out of nowhere, ya know. 'Free' is a relative term; it may be free to you, but it is costing some university or company hard cash to keep it running.

When you pay for a commerical MMORPG, you're paying to support the necessary bandwidth, hardware and billing and account services needed to keep things running, as well as future development of new games. Your mileage may vary; if they don't meet your expectations or desires, voting with your feet is a legitimate consumer activity and more power to you, <g>. Some 5 million+ people worldwide find the games engaging enough to pay to play. I agree, though; that is a drop in the bucket compared to what we should have, for many of the reasons posted here and in other threads.

Originally posted by Mylon
This "advanced character" service sorta smells like a crippleware scheme. That is, give us a little bit of money and well give you some of the program. Give us more money and only then will we make it more enjoyable.

If UO had launched in 1997 with the ACS in place, I'd say you have a point. After 5 years of existence and some 200,000 paying subscribers, however, I think this is just an attempt to profit from a need in UO that eBay has made apparent or formalized.

[nigel_ht]

Originally posted by Psychochild

It's similar in online games. You learn your basic abilities at low levels then learn your advanced tactics at higher levels. Why do people hate eBay characters? Because the person doesn't have the player (not character) experience to handle that higher level character. You don't want the mage to be asking "How do I cast spells again? Which spells are good?" when you're fighting a tough monster. Going through the lower levels gives you the training necessary for the higher levels.

I have yet to see a MMOG player class that you cannot master the basics within say...a couple weeks of casual play. At least enough that you're as good as most folks are at the game.

Having been in my fair share of dysfunctional high level EQ groups with out a single ebayer, it certainly is no guarantee that 50+ days played is any indication of overwhelming game skill.

Also, most classes rarely change from mid-levels (30ish) and upper levels in style.

I think that you can launch a game with pre-built characters if you also limit their maximum growth potential. Taking EQ as an example, you might offer a level 50-55 character with decent gear for $200-$500 that capped out at level 59. That leaves the "regular" characters a presitige level for "roughing" it and you've capped EBay'd characters at a low enough value that it hopefully becomes insufficiently profitable to grind characters to sell.

I dunno...maybe you CAN grind from 1 to 55 in a hundred hours (4.1 days played) for a massive $5 an hour. Eh.

On the other hand, a regular player that's ready to leave could sell their account for maybe $600 for a level 55 since it can go to 60. A nice little bennie for the loyal player that isn't grinding characters for resale.

If you make it legal to sell but charge a $60 fee to do any transfers you still get a small(er) slice of the pie. 3 months revenue for 1 minutes worth of database work.

Even if you start at 55 its pretty much certain that by level 56, you've got a handle on your class. Verant just received 25 months of revenue for 1 minute of database work. If they quit in a month or two from boredom or "lack of roots"...um, who cares?

In fact, that may be an optimal case. 25 months of revenue for 1 month of overhead costs.

And the die hard characters with their uber level 60 abilities can sneer at the lowly purchased characters. Unless of course its one of their alts.

Regards,

Nigel