Planning and Quest Generation: Where is it?

[murf]

Ok, a quick question from the programming ignorant: why don't we see this? I've been kicking the basics of this idea around for about three years now, and I can't program my way out of a paper bag with anything other than VB. Something like this would make even EQ fun. With some tinkering, it could be used to produce dynamic, world-altering quests for newbies (though not, perhaps, world-shaking quests, just tiny stuff like lowering the costs of certain items newbies desire or use frequently, that sort of thing) which would go a long way towards retention by making new players feel like they have a stake in the world of the game. (http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_89.shtml)

So, seeing as how this type of dynamic quest system has so many benifits, promotes suspension of disbelief, and must be easier to code than a 3d graphics gaming engine with real time whats-its and multi-polygon dynamic whos-its, why don't we see it incorporated into the professional games on the market? Or even the ones scheduled to be released on the market?

Brian

[Richard]

Murf>Ok, a quick question from the programming ignorant: why don't we see this?

Because the people who design virtual worlds are often the people who play them, and the people who program virtual worlds are often the people who program regular computer games. There is no reason why either of these groups of people would necessarily be aware of AI work in this area. Perhaps, after reading this series of articles, they might look into it. Then again, maybe they knew about it all along but have more pressing concerns.

Richard

[Jed Norton]

Dear Dr B.... (Couldn't resist it sorry, You now have an Agony Aunt column!)


So....

"Bob" is an NPC Dwarven Smith.

He has a premises, the Smithy.
He has a career, a Smith.
He has customers, the players.
He has capital.
He has advertising.

So Bob is a Smith - what does he (can he/could he) Smith?

Axes. Swords. Polearms.

We make the requisite components/designs of each into a seperate "quest" and allow different players to fulfill each.

Hilt-leather enables sword manufacture?
Staves enables polearms manufacturing?
Carbonated steel enables Axe heads?

And then down another level...

Plans for a Ricasso enables sronger swords.
"Flamberge" designs enables two-handers....

(And so on ever down)

And at each (or some) levels Bob requires new items to make each, new advertising "All new flamberge swords from Bob the Builder" (oops j/k) and so on and so forth.

-

OK, so we know have a smith that is more "interactive" than the curent static examples in many MMOG's. He'll make whatever he can, but that's determined by what he knows and that by what the player provides him with in terms of both resource (components) and knowledge (designs).

Each task though further defines and advances Bob the NPC - yet in terms of an MMOG with thousands of players per server/world, it can't be long before each one is fulfilled... most of the "tasks/quests" are one-offs. Once you have the design for a ricasso or tang-nut you have it - it doesn't need repeating.

Does this not create a tremendous amount of maintenaince and a very limited "lifespan" on the individual quests/tasks themselves?

If so, is not the working life of the (dynamic) quest list for each NPC very short... especially with hundreds or thousands of people working on it? (Although one suposes that there is always a pool of static elements such as "fetch me x bars of steel and Y staves for polearm handles, advertise my latest sword" etc etc)

Or - the short, non rambling version of the question:

Is such a "deep" series of quests feasible without bloated code to manage it and a poor pay-off in terms of invested time over time-to-achieve from the player population? Would we not see NPCs moving from barman to Master Smith in the space of days or weeks?

(Hmmm - although once succesful who's to say Bob doesn't desire a new career as a philosopher, avid art collector or determined to uncover the truth behind the missing Diana tapes.... you never know!)


- - -


On a sidelie thought - if feasible its a hell of a way to allow for player involvement in a world whilst offline - through a form of NPC manipulation. Players buys a building (smith) and then finds an NPC wanting to be a smith..."hires him"/"Goes into partnership". Player gives NPC the building then goes afk from the game for 4 weeks... you come back to either a rich smithy, a poor smithy or a brothel (he was a very bad smith but a very good "madamme") ... I kind of like that potential.

[Richard]

Originally posted by Jed Norton
Is such a "deep" series of quests feasible without bloated code to manage it and a poor pay-off in terms of invested time over time-to-achieve from the player population? Would we not see NPCs moving from barman to Master Smith in the space of days or weeks?

This is a very good question.

There has to be a limit to the depth to which quests can be created. Once a quest has been expanded to this depth, it can be considered "played out". Therefore yes, on the face of it it does look like individual NPCs will run out of things they want players to do, so players have to spend more and more time seeking out ones who haven't yet been tapped.

However, this assumes that new quests can't arise from changes in circumstances.

Example 1: NPCs Alf and Babs both want to lead the village council. They can't both lead it. If Alf achieves his goal, then either he won't have any goals until Babs achieves hers or he'll have a new goal of maintaining his position.

Example 2: NPC Chuck wants a career in catering. He runs the best coffee shop in town. The price of coffee rises. Chuck raises his prices. People stop coming because the tea shop down the road is less effective. Chuck needs a goal change.

Example 3: NPC Debby wants to marry NPC Ed. She pulls out all the stops and marries him. She only wanted to marry him because she loved him, but now she has access to Ed's inheritance. You could press her quest button again and get a new quest - maybe a career, maybe she wants children, maybe she has now met Ed's brother and wants Ed out of the picture so she can marry him instead...

On a sidelie thought - if feasible its a hell of a way to allow for player involvement in a world whilst offline - through a form of NPC manipulation. Players buys a building (smith) and then finds an NPC wanting to be a smith..."hires him"/"Goes into partnership". Player gives NPC the building then goes afk from the game for 4 weeks... you come back to either a rich smithy, a poor smithy or a brothel (he was a very bad smith but a very good "madamme") ... I kind of like that potential.

It's interesting from a The Sims Online kind of perspective, yes, rattling the cages of semi-autonomous NPCs.

Richard

[Jed Norton]

Strange you mention the Sims - if im remembering correctly: in the Sim's the AI is placed in objects rather than in avatars. Avatars have basic "needs/wants" but the AI is embedded in the objects, interactions coming from the needs/wants of the avatar interacting with the AI on objects?

Is this not close to what you are proposing here?
(The quest dispenser is an avatar with needs/wants and the "ovjects" are the players providing the AI and means to achieving their wants?)