Bye bye!

[Kristine]

Rightee. I've given this a lot of thought, and I have decided to stop playing Castle Marrach. You guys send me emails, ICQ messages and stuff, alright? If you are wondering why I quit, find me in ICQ, email me or send me a private message in these forums. Look for me in The Eternal City if you want to talk, too. My char name there is Karinett. I loved the game, I had fun with you all, thanks for everything, and the Dueling Watchwoman will be around from time to time (I promise :D)

Cya'll!

~Kristine aka Karinett~

[Kristine]

7 votes? Only 7? :confused:

A few more notes (mainly because I'm bored):

I have no real IC reason for her disappearance, so something has to be done. Or of course, she could have just disappeared mysteriously...:rolleyes:

Kyle, I'm really sorry about this. I promised you I'll be back but I guess I won't be. I'm sure Kyle'll get another sera soon, I mean...he is a flirt, even when his beloved Kris is around ;)

Monkey, I don't know what's going to happen to Kris' Watch position. I'll still be around -sometimes- so...

Ermengarde's player, heh, I guess Ermengarde won this time with Kris' disappearance :D

Oh, and no, I am not going to be giving things away. *eyeshift* Ok, maybe a few things. Maybe none. Kris is in trouble for sharing stuff already...*mutters :mad:*

Again, I'll miss ya'll.

~Kristine~

[Umichan]

Ack!!! Kris! You're making me cry now... :(

[John]

can anyone tell me why we seem to be losing people faster now than before? Is there something messed up or going on? i ask becouse i have heard a grumble or two but not really had any of my own problems..but then i play wierd. I like having you around kristine...you should hang still but..take a vacation from the castle..a few weeks mabey..:)

[Kristine]

Why you guys are losing more people faster than before?

Read thread: Yet Another Bludgeon

And because most of us are movin to TEC.

I'll miss you too, John, but I've already made up my mind and I need to make a few thousand more denars *eyeshifts* :D

[Blade]

John, the castle is getting ridiculous. Basically the entire way of life in the Castle is being changed, and we are getting bombarded by rules that both conflict and constantly change.

It's becoming intolerable, especially for older players who have been told one thing for months and now are having to deal with the fact that "you've been inappropriate all along". Um, thanks a bunch.

It's just been building up till finally it's gotten out of control.

Kris, explaining IC why you are gone is easy. Leave a note saying that you finally have evidence that will condemn Morte, so blatant that even the Watch that seems like Morte's protector can't ignore it any more... Then disappear. :D

[Kristine]

Uh, Blade? It's a really cool idea, but I dont want Kris dead 8)

And I'd have to make up a reason if I ever visit the castle. If.

[John]

well..this all makes a little prob for me..i dont like TEC much..it just reminds me of other games i dont like..
so..i will keep working here and see if we can get this fixed...becouse if to many people leave..
then i will just stick to my sitdown and larp games:)..

[Kristine]

Hmm, I don't think too much can be fix in terms of...stuff, now. Especially not after the clothing system has been...enforced. If you give CM a makeover job...make it more interesting, more stable...;)

[Kvalhion]

Hey Kris,

Remember to share all those talents with your old CM friends if we are ever in TEC. =)

Although it may not concern Skotos overmuch now if people go over to TEC from CM, it may in the future, since TEC3D is being developed. I have no idea how far along it is but I imagine that a graphical version of TEC would appeal to a lot of players, even those who are used to the text only MUD type games.

Things to remember in TEC: You better have luck points if you die. You really run the risk of losing your character permanently, a lot more than you do in CM. If another player decides to kill you, you are dead. Period. While that might add excitement, it can also lead to a lot of frustration!

One of the things that appeals to me about CM is the simplicity of the game, if that is what you want it to be. I've played CM for over 6 months now, and even though I do not have a bunch of items, fine clothes, access to the IB, etc, I still have a lot of fun playing. I like the fact that I can sit on the landing and nod to people as they go by while doing other things. That I do not have to worry about someone coming up and attacking me while afk. I am sure I am probably in the minority of enjoying just being lazy in the game, but that's what I like most about it. =)

I would like to see some of the features that have been promised, such as complex emote sentences, or free-emotes in certain areas. I will most likely contniue to play TEC and CM, and not "leave' either one. Then again, nobody really relies on my presence for any plots. :) Good luck to you in TEC, I am sure we will bump into each other occasionally =)

Kv

[Kristine]

Kari still owes your char some stuff, too bad we haven't been bumping into each other lately ;)

[Annatar]

TEC3d, or Ereal Rising is a good 12 to 24 months off, best guess given to me by the guys writing it.

[Catharsis]

Originally posted by John
well..this all makes a little prob for me..i dont like TEC much..it just reminds me of other games i dont like..
so..i will keep working here and see if we can get this fixed...becouse if to many people leave..
then i will just stick to my sitdown and larp games :)..


Thta's the whole idea of Skotos though - offer different games that appeal to different people. Some players have been in Marrach for awhile and enjoy it ... but TEC is what REALLY grabs them. And vice versa - TEC doesn't have to appeal to you. Heck, I like the castle a lot more and will stick around for sure. Basically, everyone is finding their niche and as more niches appear, people will disperse (and new ones will show up) to what attracts them the most.

As for things changing and people leaving, it's not sudden. It's discontent that has been building up for a long while now (since January for some) and since the castle is still in beta (as far as I'm concerned) there's a still a lot of sculpting that has to be done. Left side getting a bit bulgy? carve it off! Granted I know that there have been some players who have run with an idea that CE previously told them was A-okay and now they hear it is not. It's not easy, but some people have more flexibility than others, I guess.

The Battle Guild now is nothing like it started off like. Yes, some of this was player driven, but a LARGE portion of it was my discussions with CE, trying to figure out what exactly they were unhappy with and what sort of solution we could create to make the most people happy. I spent more time OOC than IC for about two months there. Heck, I needed flexibility. I did back flips at times. Cartwheels. Handsprings. And in the end (of probably one of the most frustrating experiences of my time in Marrach) there was the Battle Guild as you know it today.

Sure it wasn't easy and darned frustrating, but I WANTED to create a guild that worked and the success made it all worthwhile. And I was willing to do that for the game, for the castle, to add an element to the game that I hoped would attract others and give them something that they enjoyed.

Marrach is a cycle - perhaps the best part of it is that it is never ending, even though we are but in the early stages of a much large cycle. Not that it will be smooth - hardly. Internal and External communication issues of Skotos aside, people always have certain ideas and it's hard to let go of certain ideas, even when you're told it is for 'the greater good'.

Leah

[Faruq]

Originally posted by Kristine
Hmm, I don't think too much can be fix in terms of...stuff, now. Especially not after the clothing system has been...enforced. If you give CM a makeover job...make it more interesting, more stable...;)

There could be several things done to fix the game.

1) Come up with a set of non-contradictory rules and stick with them. Don't have rules that are Catch-22 in nature and don't have rules that shift with the breezes in the courtyard. If it turns out you made a mistake and vests ARE formal wear in medieval society, suck it up. In CM, which is blatantly obviously not the medieval world, vests are common wear. Live with it. Don't change the rules.

2) Beat several of the players upside the head. Point out to them, for example, that people are here to have fun, not to have some shrill shrew (I was going to use much stronger language here) scream at them -- incorrectly, I might add -- that vests are for formal wear only. Also point out to them the very important term "consensual roleplaying". Get them to grasp the very notion of "consent" as being something other than "that system that won't let people slap me unless I let them".

3) Give the place some hope. This setting is unrelentingly dark. All of the major plots (and most of the minor plots) in it are "toxic" (to use Peter's terminology): there are large penalties for failure, but little to no reward for success. Even the mindless little plotlets that pop up from time to time are this way. "Find my chair and couch or nobody gets clothes ever." "Find my spatula or nobody gets food ever." How 'bout a major plot with rewards for success and no particularly nasty penalties for failure sometime -- just to balance out the toxicity?

4) Teach some of the players that real human beings do things other than pursing their lips and frowning disapprovingly. Some of us even laugh from time to time. We tell and listen to jokes without demanding duels of honour.

5) If you implement that major plot I suggested in item 3, make it visible. You know, like actually have people *KNOW* about it -- other than the dozen or so core players who know everything, I mean. We, the greeby nothings.

6) Hell, while we're at it -- ban the dozen or so core players from even participating in that plot. They obviously like the fact that everything here is toxic. They built it that way, after all. Give the non-toxic plot to people who would appreciate it and who won't strive to turn it as toxic as possible.

Basically, in short, make this place fun for people other than the core group of cronies.

[John]

Originally posted by Faruq


There could be several things done to fix the game.

1) Come up with a set of non-contradictory rules and stick with them. Don't have rules that are Catch-22 in nature and don't have rules that shift with the breezes in the courtyard. If it turns out you made a mistake and vests ARE formal wear in medieval society, suck it up. In CM, which is blatantly obviously not the medieval world, vests are common wear. Live with it. Don't change the rules.

2) Beat several of the players upside the head. Point out to them, for example, that people are here to have fun, not to have some shrill shrew (I was going to use much stronger language here) scream at them -- incorrectly, I might add -- that vests are for formal wear only. Also point out to them the very important term "consensual roleplaying". Get them to grasp the very notion of "consent" as being something other than "that system that won't let people slap me unless I let them".

3) Give the place some hope. This setting is unrelentingly dark. All of the major plots (and most of the minor plots) in it are "toxic" (to use Peter's terminology): there are large penalties for failure, but little to no reward for success. Even the mindless little plotlets that pop up from time to time are this way. "Find my chair and couch or nobody gets clothes ever." "Find my spatula or nobody gets food ever." How 'bout a major plot with rewards for success and no particularly nasty penalties for failure sometime -- just to balance out the toxicity?

4) Teach some of the players that real human beings do things other than pursing their lips and frowning disapprovingly. Some of us even laugh from time to time. We tell and listen to jokes without demanding duels of honour.

5) If you implement that major plot I suggested in item 3, make it visible. You know, like actually have people *KNOW* about it -- other than the dozen or so core players who know everything, I mean. We, the greeby nothings.

6) Hell, while we're at it -- ban the dozen or so core players from even participating in that plot. They obviously like the fact that everything here is toxic. They built it that way, after all. Give the non-toxic plot to people who would appreciate it and who won't strive to turn it as toxic as possible.

Basically, in short, make this place fun for people other than the core group of cronies.
you know i have to ask now..who exactly do you see as the core group of croneys humm?...i know a good number of older players who are into stuff..and a good number who are not..or who are still clueless...or..you get the idea... how exatly are you cutting down the group?. and as to non toxic plots..nice idea but...hard to do sometimes...you want to avoid it giving to much, but you also want it to do something.. its a hard ballance..i know i have been trying to work with it from a player plot point of view but...still working..
(mostly a ramble/rant)

[Kvalhion]

Basically, in short, make this place fun for people other than the core group of cronies. - That's essentially what we hoped to do when the Forgetters were started some months ago. Unfortunately the founder of the Forgetters (Yuen) I think is in another country for a year or is too busy to play. The idea never really took off, although we did have a few interesting meetings and a few just mess around type of meetings.

The Forgetters are a group of people who enjoy spending their time doing more trivial things without specific purpose to advance themselves in rank. For instance, Yuen was also a poet and had a part in a play (not to say that Poets do not try to gain rank, but I think he was just doing it for fun). I would like the Forgetters to be a group where the rules of the castle do not weigh us down. We basically enjoy what we have and try to cause harmless mischief (see the chemise throwing incident) rather than worrying over our image or running from task to task in hopes to gain favor.

I am not sure how many people would want to be a part of this group or not, but even that is somewhat irrelevant since a Forgetter is more of a state of mind than a structured group. I'm not saying that groups such as these are the answer for the opression of the castle, but comedy and a care free attitude is hopefully a start. =)

Kv

[skitten]

I would like to point out that a lot of us older players try to stay out of the new plotlines designed for the newer players. However, more often than not, these plotlines are not only shoved at us, but people get upset if we tell them to figure it out.

More than once a newer player plot has been dodged skillfully by the people they are intended for by the newer players -insisting- that the older characters deal with whatever it is.

Jenn

[Faruq]

Originally posted by skitten
More than once a newer player plot has been dodged skillfully by the people they are intended for by the newer players -insisting- that the older characters deal with whatever it is.

The problem is likely one of trust.

I don't know which characters you play, but unless you play one of three remaining old-timers I interact with at any level, if you tried to shove a problem at me, for example, I'd likely duck it.

The sad fact is that I don't *TRUST* the older players anymore. (Or, more accurately, I don't trust most of the older players. There are a few -- although their number is decreasing as they get disgusted and quit -- I do trust implicitly. Most of them, however, are in no position to make a plot that actually has real rewards.) I don't trust them to hand me a plot that is all punishment/no reward. I don't trust them to set up a plot that is fair -- that isn't laden with Catch-22 situations from beginning to end. Hell, I don't trust them not to take their OOC annoyance with me saying things like this publicly to IC.

And, you know what? I'm not the only person who doesn't trust the old-timers. Not by a long shot.

The well has been poisoned. It will take a long period of nearly-perfect behaviour before trust will be earned back. And every, smallest piece of misplaced trust will set you right back at the start. Welcome to the wonders of human nature.

[Seidl]

You know what? Its posts like that that make me wonder why I spend hours trying to get new people involved in plots. And more hours writing the plots themselves. if they aren't appreciated, then fine. Believe it or not, people like to play with the people they enjoy playing with. I frequently recently have been doing less of this to involve other people. To suck new peopel into things.

But guess what? The more plots that get thrown back, the fewer ones that will get thrown out. We're trying people. We are. But you know what? constant negitive feedback will not improve things, only make them never happen. Any chance for some positive feedback mixed with the negitive? Any chance of some of themiddbies running plots?

What rewards do you want for your plots? (and remember that you need to think of a year or two down the line, so knighthoods are bad rewards. What would you offer up next?). You want items? Talk to Zia or Quilp. Foods? Those are easy. Even Ermie clothes can be gotten for good reason. What rewards are you looking for?

-=- Matt

ps. Yes, there are problems. But lots of right things too. This game isn't for everyone. Why we have TEC. Sometimes its the right time to move on. Krsitine, I'll miss you, but if you can't take a single IC attack from someone who is known to be perticular about favor, maybe this isn't the right game for you. Will the lack of a couple of clothing items really effect your role playing that much?

[KathyN]

Plots for new players are all very well, but I wonder if what Faruq and others are saying is that the people who are in-between are feeling left out? They didn't start with the 'oldbies' but they've been around long enough to get acquainted.
But what is happening that's exciting for them to be involved in? There are vague statements made about gaining favor and eventually being able to struggle into high society. But where are the opportunities? How much is assumed to be common knowledge but actually isn't? Other players besides you Matt have also tried to make things interesting for people. There's differing interests, not everyone wants to sew, not everyone wants to duel. I know you're all trying. But it seems that there just isn't enough to do. I wondered why people want to join the Awakeners and finally realized it was possibly because helping other people gives you something to do! A purpose for being there. The people that are most satisfied with Marrach are very probably the ones who's charactors have found a purpose. So maybe finding ways to give players a purpose might help?
Kathy N

[John]

Originally posted by Seidl
What rewards do you want for your plots? (and remember that you need to think of a year or two down the line, so knighthoods are bad rewards. What would you offer up next?). You want items? Talk to Zia or Quilp. Foods? Those are easy. Even Ermie clothes can be gotten for good reason. What rewards are you looking for?


I know this really wasnt to me but..i would like to take a shot at the answer..
rewards: things you cant get easly : obvious favor (from an older player or more...) obvious being that it is said or something is done to show it. :secrets...: leads to bigger plots or leads to plots that the person has been looking for: status..(goes with favor but in this case its pushing a person in a guild a bit..or making sure something of them is known..like sera addreama taking someone poems to the lord chamberlain personaly..
these are a few examples but i want to ask..do people agree that these are what is being looked for?
as a note not trying to annoy anyone...just getting a famework:)

[John]

Originally posted by KathyN
. So maybe finding ways to give players a purpose might help?
Kathy N
well actally..its not a well known IC fact but..many of the positions named in the great chain..have no one in them. and it is posoble to try for them tho in most(if not all cases) you need to get HG status first..(i think..if i am wrong sorry..new teritory for me here..dipping my toes). Its just that you have to ask people about this..the lord chamberlain is a good sourse but i have gotten some answers out of others..
so you might not want to duel but...do you want to make books? learn enganeriing? keep track of the locked rooms? wait hand and foot on the queen?...there are a lot of options...just not many players know squat about them(i only know becouse i was asking about a position in an attempt to not get in trouble for using the name "Keeper of the Kennels.."but now that there is a list..if something on there looks good..ask about it..see if you can be it...:)..its hard work but hey...lots of options..

[Faruq]

Originally posted by Seidl
You know what? Its posts like that that make me wonder why I spend hours trying to get new people involved in plots. And more hours writing the plots themselves. if they aren't appreciated, then fine. Believe it or not, people like to play with the people they enjoy playing with. I frequently recently have been doing less of this to involve other people. To suck new peopel into things.

I can imagine this is frustrating. But now look at it from the perspective of those who came in after January. First there were no plots whatsoever and there was nobody willing to interact with us. Then plots started, but they were all in one of two categories: toxic or pointless. (I'm sorry, but a missing spatula just doesn't strike me as an intriguing, engaging plot. And having the ridiculous threat of all food services being removed if it isn't returned is just stupid.)

But guess what? The more plots that get thrown back, the fewer ones that will get thrown out. We're trying people. We are. But you know what? constant negitive feedback will not improve things, only make them never happen. Any chance for some positive feedback mixed with the negitive? Any chance of some of themiddbies running plots?

You've done an excellent job of making sure the midbies can't run a meaningful plot. We're left out of anything important. We have no positions of authority. We have nothing we can grant as rewards. We've been locked out of anything even remotely meaningful here -- which is why I've just not bothered to try any longer.

What rewards do you want for your plots?

At this stage, an honest "thank you" combined with people actually remembering that you've done a favour would be light years ahead of what has become the norm. I've pretty much given up all hope on seeing anything resembling advancement for favours rendered. I have seen far too many people basically whore themselves to the oldbies for trinkets, only to get tossed back down again when there was the slightest chance of any kind of advancement.


This game isn't for everyone.

You're right. It's for about a dozen people. The rest get screwed over repeatedly.

[Umichan]

As a "not olbie but not newbie either" player, I can say that I often felt left out of plots... I participated in a few small ones (the impromptu Whyndam/Zenaida duel to the death, for example... *grins* That was noce to roleplay), but that's about it...

However, I do agree that once your character finds a purpose in the game, it's getting nicer. Look at Umi proudly wearing her green armband with silver trims. She's not very strong, she's one of the most immature people in the castle, she's clumsy, and she doesn't have artistic talents whatsoever... Swordpractices are something she enjoys, but what she enjoys the most is teaching. It might not lead her to the IB (she wouldn't spit on it if she was offered to be an Honored Guest though), but she found something she likes doing, a purpose to her life in the Castle.

Solutions? Let's try involving all kinds of people in plots (oldbies, newbies, middle ones, annoying ones, etc.), and let's help other players to fing a purpose for their character in the castle. Sure, the game is not perfect, but it will improve. Besides, perfection is boring.

Just some ranting,
Gaby

[Seidl]

Breaking a private rule twice in one day. I know I'll get in trouble for this.

Why can't you run plots? If all you want as a reward is a thankyou and it being rembered? You can do that. Middlebies not being accepted? Well the duelists just doubled in size with mostly middlebies and newer players. They have things to offer. I expect the watch will do admissions soon as well. The seekers are always taking in more people. The tailors have lots of not oldbies on staff. Quilp is looking for help. Zia is looking for help. Thats options for a lot.

I remember what people have done for me. I know lots of people go all the way up to access databases to keep track. If you think someone is forgetting, remind them politely OOC. We are only human.

And on that note, A question. Everyone does realize that basicly every castle elder you meet these days is a VP right? All played by other players with feelings and opinions and directions handed down from above. Would you appreciate me flamming the way you play your characters? But its allright to flame the way others play theres.

So, there are openings. Take them. If you're burned out after the long drought, I'm sorry. i can't fix that. But I can work to make things better. Slowly. Thats what we're doing. In spite of the complaints more than because of them it seems.

-=- Matt

[John]

Originally posted by Faruq




You've done an excellent job of making sure the midbies can't run a meaningful plot. We're left out of anything important. We have no positions of authority. We have nothing we can grant as rewards. We've been locked out of anything even remotely meaningful here -- which is why I've just not bothered to try any longer.

sigh..thats not true...i am a midbie myself and i am doing well..still in the 11th part of the chain but doing well in it...some of it was luck..some work..some sucking up..and a lot of it was supporting others in their bids..and having them pay me back by supporting me later..(and thats really starting to pay off) I do have some things i can do plot wise but its really slow...IC i have some help if i ask for it but OOC i dont live near any other players..add that to the fact that a lot of what i want to do needs me to get a hold of people IC with scrolls and the such means that i am really slow to do plot.. I am doing better than i was but...still hard work. i do have 2 suggestions however..one is scrolls...if you want something..or to do something..write a scroll to any important person you have met who might do something like what you want
and 2 use ooc...if you are board..go to some of the oldbys and the mids and even the news if you trust them..and talk to them in a side room ooc about what you want story wise...if the story looks good then there is a good chance it will fly..just rember it cant be all good for your charicter all the time...but as i said if the story is good...it might fly..
(as a note..i can be approched this way as well if you have any philosopher/battler ideas..other stuff i may or may not be able to get anything done..but plot/story stuff with thos two(more philosophers than battler) i can work with you with..ok?..BTW thats to anyone..)

[Faruq]

Originally posted by Seidl
Well the duelists just doubled in size with mostly middlebies and newer players.

After doing the "Incredible Shrinking Duelists" act for four months it is trivial to double in size. Hell, you were close to having one new triad doubling your size. I wouldn't exactly hold that up as a success story.

The seekers are always taking in more people.

And then doing nothing with them. For the past three months the only thing the Seekers got into plot-wise was "look for the [crimson|crescent] moon!" Repeatedly. Ad nauseum. Complete with the SAME bad poetry recited over and over and over and over again.

There's a reason why there's so few active Seekers (people who actually attend meetings, for example) nowadays.

[Seidl]

Faruq, so go to Charmiam or the Acolytes and offer up some plot suggestions. I'm not a seeker, I have little to no clue what would make a good seeker plot. but how about:

Balence - there is too much (Good, Evil, Selfish) - so the seekers get directed to go out and be the opposite. Till that fails. :) but it makes points with the seekers, who have open Acolyte positions.

Also, now that Nadira is about more, maybe that will improve.


As to the duelists, we can only admit triads that can get the votes IC. Did we make mistakes? Yep. And we've admitted them. We've also worked to make the process better. Remember, this a guild run by me at this point. A player. I work with what I've got, but I'm going to make mistakes, and the poeple above me will make mistakes. but its not like I'm getting payed for this either. All the guild leaders are doing what they can. But in general we're happy to have people email or ooc us plot ideas we can look into running. But we need to have fun too, so if we don't drop everything to run your plot right then, forgive us.

So faruq, you've been around for some time. And the other middlbies. Go to your guild leaders OOC and give them plot ideas. If the guild leader wants more details, give them to them. Let the guild leaders go to the SP's and CE for the bits they can't provide. I know I have some things in the works for duelists and others, but I'll take more ideas.

-=- Matt

[Blade]

Faruq, alot of the "oldbies" just don't have anything to GIVE. A thank you? Cody's always saying thank you for things, he tries to treat people well unless they give him a reason to get ticked, and even then if they turn around he'll be ok (like with Kvalhion).

But what can Cody give someone? He can induct them as a Battler, but that isn't hard, ALMOST anyone can be a Battler. He can make people Teachers, and give them the teaching skill, but he needs to be careful who he allows to teach because a bad teacher can cause students to quit (it's almost happened once). He can make people Elders, but there can be at max 5 people, and he REALLY needs to be careful about who they are (and if he gives someone a sword and they go off abusing it he MIGHT get in trouble himself). As a poet, he can write poetry for someone. But he can't give out power, he can't give out other things most people would want.

What is the purpose of a plot? Plots give people something to do. They don't usually result in tangible rewards, they are usually some calamity that needs to be averted. This might be seen as "toxic" but frankly most stories are like this. How many stories have you ever read that involved something good happening? Bad things are exciting, good things are boring. Now, I agree that it would be nice if you were rewarded after a plot was over, but that doesn't happen often (not right away) unless it's CE running it.

What you usually get out of a plot is the ability to later say "hey, remember the time when..." and a way to define your character better. I've been involved in plots that really screwed up my characters in the long run, but they're fun to talk about.

Cody tries to give people rewards for things, everyone in the Battle Guild had to put SOME effort before being inducted (even if it means showing up and being polite) and his teachers and Elders are people who've tried hard. One person recently was inducted for personally helping Cody, she didn't need to wait the usual week to be evaluated, you could call that a mini-plot with a reward I guess.

Cody's two current positions took alot of time and hard work to achieve. He basically hooked up with Catharsis and Delacroix and was DETERMINED to make the Battlers into something functional, and now that he's the only one left he's in charge. Even becoming a poet took MONTHS and at least a half dozen poems, some written under strict guidelines that were hard OOC to work with, but fun.

I've never been handed anything, and I've often had things slapped away. I'm not saying that everyone should have to go through what I did, no. But there's no reason to complain about older players, most who I assure you share your frustrations in many ways. Heck, I'm agreeing with you on alot of what you've been saying lately after all. :)

Hey... Since you have this "list" of 12 people I'm really curious to see who they are...

[Dariel]

I haven't bothered to look at Davog's Poll again, but I still feel like the Newbie here (even though that Emris fellow has posted on the IC boards quite a few times, but whoever he is, he might be an active Alt, so I'll simply claim the title for now).

And I'd like to give you my perspective on things.

I am almost done with my free month, and for a not-yet paying customer, I have had a ball.

From an OOC perspective, that was it. I simply have been able to immensely enjoy myself: From meeting great characters with real personalities (I'm not going to start naming them because I might end up with a rather huge list, but basically everyone I regularly associate with falls into that category), to participating in one small and one larger plot (even though the larger plot was more of what I have come to call a 'peep show', meaning a plot where you are involved but not really able to influence the outcome because it is very linear - which is not necessarily a bad thing, just something different from a plot where you are free to choose your actions), and that is not mentioning my activities in just getting to know the castle, trying to find out some of its secrets for myself or just sitting in the courtyard and acting out Lord Lazeabout, even if it could be boring at times, I'm not going to break character...

From an IC perspective, I've even been modestly successfull: Having been to the IB (if only for a short while), hopefully being on my way to become a Counselor as well as embarking on that other road, the one of the sorcerer (even though Dariel doesn't really make this all that publicly known) despite having treated certain people less than appropriate ;) and simply the success of being generally liked by people Dariel likes as well.

The problem simply seems to be that fun depends on success and advancement. I don't know what the few player characters in the IB are getting in the way of plots, and surely the older OB residents get their slice of the cake. The problem seems to be with the middle class who has all the small things that make castle life comforable (I would kill for a chair so I could finally sit at that table in my room and write my scrolls in relative peace) and nothing to aspire to in any credible range... they're sort of stuck in limbo with no apparent road to whatever it is they need.

If I was better informed about those players, I'd probably be able to understand why, but as it is, I can only assume. I play to play. CM is first and foremost a platform, a framework, a stage, and I am an actor on that stage. The props are there, but no actually visible drama, only plots and rather pregnant pauses in between - and I cannot help but find those pregnant pauses what keeps me returning to this game. Surely, there is some incentive to become better in my chosen vices, languages at the moment as Dariel is not so much the blue collar type, and probably attain some measure of rank and fame (or infamy)... but it's not my main incentive for playing...

As I said, I am not all too well-informed, else I'd stoop to the assumption that a few of those players who are upset about things as they are simply belong to the more competitive sorts, who want to see their character succeed in everything they set out to do... There's nothing initially bad with this kind of playing style, I simply do not like it myself, as it tends to create those kinds of players who will bitch over small rule issues and -during table top or larp events- actually get rather rude and violent... I myself have gotten into scuffles and have had Warhammer miniatures being thrown at me before...

I can understand the problems with conflicting statements and the resulting frustrations, but a lot of other things said in here and in that other threats, I cannot understand... Kristine obviously getting OOCly mad over an IC statement from Ermengarde that -by the way- might be nothing more than a well-timed bluff...

In closing, I'd like to tell everyone who considers leaving to please simply stay, sit it out and watch how things develop... as someone said before, this game is -for all accounts- still in its beta stage...

I hope at least part of that rant was understandable.

~Dariel~

[Kvalhion]

One of the things that I believe is missing in online games in general (and especially in CM) is a lack of a cast. A cast would be a group of players who play specific NPC-like roles and would collaborate on an over-all plot that would involve the players. While partially scripted, it would still be open ended depending on what happened within the game. The Great Chain of Being is a good start for the roles of a cast. As someone mentioned previously, right now there are really nobody playing those roles.

Other games such as Meridian69 and Everquest (I know they are graphical, but thats what I played before coming to CM) have tried to do this sort of thing, but surprisingly the success of it was their downfall. In Meridian there would be literally 50-75 people swarming the "God" NPC that appeared and would interfere with whatever plot they were tryign to achieve. EverQuest is about 10 times worse, with 1500 people being on one server.

Yet in a setting like CM, it might actually work quite well. While CM does have a decent following, I do not think it would suffer from people beign too anxious when Sir Launfal or Queen Vivienne or Sir Boreas or whoever was out and about in the Outer Bailey. Not just for two minutes, and not just to talk to a player about an issue, but to actually have a base-storyline or plot that could be enacted. Afterall, if CM is like a stage, why not have actors?

These people really could be anyone, not necessarily paid staff. This has in all likelihood been implemented on a small scale already, but I would like to see it much more prominent. Not just having a cat act strangely and stealing some slippers.

Players are capable of creating and acting out their own plots as well, of course. But why not make a plot more public? Why not have a thread of plots? If it is not possible for CE to make a cast of sorts, we coudl always do it ourselves. Post a plot with parts that you would like people to play. Personally, I enjoy playing non-main character positions, or evil characters even if they are doomed from the start. You do not have to post what is going to happen, or even know beforehand how it will end. But I think it would open the door to have people much more involved in plots by making it obvious what the plots are. People here are creative, I am sure with a little collaboration and people willing to play parts that the plots do not revolve around, we could come up with some classic stories.

Just my opinion. I would like to see more NPC type players portrayed by players. Like a bartender, guards, whatever. Not as a special rare occurance, but something regular that you can look forward to. I am still searching for a game like that, although I still enjoy being in Castle Marrach.

Also, if anyone does have use for someone (Kv, an alt, whatever) who would like to play a small part in a plot without the need for rewards or the like, let me know. That would add to my enjoyment of the Castle.

Ron (Kvalhion)

[Blade]

Oh, another thing... Faruq, I am VERY open to plot ideas for the Battlers, ask Johnathan. And since he's a character who Cody LIKES, and wants to induct soon (talk IC tonight if you can get on) he would be open to things you do IC as well.

If you want to get plots together, please let me know. I'm no StoryPlotter, but I'll try to support you as much as I can if you have a plausible plot (I'm sure whatever you come up with will be good though).

[Blade]

Ron, good idea. But it exists. :D

They are called "VP"s, or Veteran Players. They play people like Master Quilp, Lord Sicard, and Geoffry the Cook. Regular players who play a major persona whose job it is more or less to advance plots and get characters involved in stuff. Unfortunately, it has worked pretty bad so far, because they are either antisocial or in the Inner Bailey where nobody sees them, but it's just getting started so you gotta give em a break. :)

But they work exactly like you described, in every way.

Oh, please let me know if you want to be involved in plots, Ron. I like the interplay that was occuring between Cody and Kvalhion and would like to expand on it.

Oh... by the way, if Yuen is gone so much who is taking care of the Forgetters? Maybe you could step up and take over... A plot in itself! :D

[Kvalhion]

"...but it's just getting started so you gotta give em a break. " - I hear that about a lot of features within Castle Marrach =) But I understand what you mean. The player-run plots and CE-run plots do not need to be mutually exclusive, however. Why limiit it to a VP? Are there enough VPs to go around?

While that is great and all, and would certainly be fun once it is a bit more visible, why not have Jr VPs? ;) I mean, something that is not so formal as that.

For example, why not be able to just post up an idea here in the CM board? Give a basic outline of whatever idea you have, detail that you need two or three minor parts that will perform a selected task (especially roles of villains or antagonists), and see if anyone is interested in spending whatever amount of time playing that part. After they are done, they can go back to their "major" characters.

I guess the point is, I would have liked to see this at the start. And by the time it is fully implemented (if it ever reaches that point) there might not be anyone left for it to matter. =)

By the way, what is the process involved to become a VP? =)
I am interesting in becoming involved in plots, but I am not really interested in becoming the main character(s) that the plot revolves around. This is why I've tried to purposefully keep Kvalhion in the background these months. I love to roleplay and like to further plots, but committing myself to spending time online has gotten me in trouble with my wife in the past. =) Thus it is easier to play a minor role (which is just as much fun in my opinion) and let the others "be responsible" for the overall plot itself.

As far as the Forgetters go, I am certainly going to try to "revive" them, if others are intersted. Even if not, I dont mind being the sole Forgetter. Just because Kvalhion has tamed his views in regards to the Royalty doesn't mean he isn't going to have some fun with the Outer Bailey residents who could use a bit of tormenting. ;) It's what I do best!

Kv

[Aumakua]

CE would like to let everyone know, that yes, we are listening to your concerns brought up in the forums.

For now, we would like to ask that everyone be patient with us for the immediate future. Next week (June 21st-ish) we have planned to put up some posts in the CE Policies and Announcements forums that should help everyone resolve and understand many of the issues brought up recently.

[Gareth]

When too many rats are put in too small a cage, or regardless of cage size, there's too little food, or the food is distributed through enforced competition, they start biting at and, eventually, eating each other. Breeding pairs and aggressive individuals are usually the strongest and most likely survivors in such environments.

This is the same with any species.

It's called the "pecking order", named after observations of a Norwegian barnyard.

In an economy wherein there is sufficiency for the sustenance of all, then you have an environment that tends towards a certain self-limiting level.

A plenty, and the society grows.

A scarcity, and you get competition.

Too much scarcity, and you get, rather quickly, the Four Riders of the Apocolypse. Napoleon was, I believe, quoted as saying any city was usually no more than "three meals from revolution."

An interesting book, called the "Lucifer Principle" looked at the 'pecking order' of organizations and political ideas (dubbed in the book "superorganisms"). All of this is standard fair for those who have done this type of sociology before. If not, you might want to read into it.

Gareth is blessed to be in a "breeding pair" (not that CM permits kids...). ;) Avaria and I have often turned to each other for much-needed support after a tough day. And, being a kind of "alpha" pair, others have often come to us individually or together for comfort after various tough days. We often take little chicks under our wings. (Neither of us are VPs, SGs, or etc., btw...)

Others are solitary Darwinists roughing it like people on "Survivor." Every once in a while social pressure forces someone "off the island." Others shrug ("they just couldn't handle it I guess"), stoically march on, regardless of the body count.

Some of these form into "wolf packs" -- the next best way to survive scarcities. Our team can kick your team's ass.

Some of the backlash against VP or SP characters has been reflexive... People who are "just players" felt pressures "from above," so they are lashing back at it. Some of the pressure sent towards VPs (or SGs or SPs or CE) is not personal, but environmental. Frustrations piling up towards the direction of psychoses. Castle fever...

I'm always glad when organizations, even those who are supposedly "hostile", recruit new members because it shows a positive organizational growth and development. This is a growing society, and there is an abundance of opportunity.

I also don't squabble over who is made Honored Guest before who. I figure as long as there's some promotion going on, everyone feels like there's a lottery ticket that might have their name on it at some point in the future. Even if its a CE self-limited bestowal of the Queen's Favor, we all in our hearts hope that we will be picked next.

The issue of the Great Chain was amazing... Boggling how many positions there are open in it!

But when people ask about it, or seek to meet their social betters, they come out of the experience feeling like it was a WWF Smackdown. That's when it makes you wonder if maybe Kvalhion's point is very defensible.... ICly. ;)

Rise up! Take arms! Break down the doors of the Commissary! Rise up in revolution!

(During the briefing in the Pantry, the leader of the dark coalition hisses, "...by the way, only go after the Watch members. Don't worry about the Royal Guards at all. They only just stand there. Useless!!!")

Right now, we guests are vermin lower than servants -- literally -- and only one step up from criminals. Along with all the recent changes, I've been waiting to see the revised Gwen storming into the Refectory, challenging people to duels to the death for having their feet up on the tables. :confused:

In medieval society, Gentility and Nobility have a responsibility of Hospitality to guests, and to seek that they protect and serve the People. A rank is a privilege that supposedly comes with responsibility.

Just as an example, never once have I seen a duelist, never mind a knight, kick the shit out of Quilp for threatening and tormenting a defenseless Newlie Awakened. If he does ever cow-tow to someone, I've never seen it done in public.

He has been toned down recently, and I believe he's now no longer as feared/loathed as he once had been. But I was there one night when he had to break OOC because things were just getting too squirrelly. Like Matt says, VP and SP characters are played by humans.

Hard job to play such characters. He and others have been (and are rightly) commended for their efforts! It's a tough job.

But Kvalhion ICly is right about many parts of his argument. When our social betters in the game actually show reasons to worship them, they will find loyal subjects. When people are downtrodden, or their genuine desires to follow the Great Chain are met with Nazism, they start pushing back. Most folks know ICly it's little use. Just a great way to get into a stupid duel or thrown in dungeon.

OOCly, right now, people are wondering why they want to play, or continue to play this game. Their characters are trapped. But heck, it's summer, and we could be going to the movies, visiting friends, dancing, going to concerts, etc.

The escape valve is to see the flow from OB to IB and rise in status of people we want to root for, the just desserts to those who deserve to take a fall, or some drama as the inverse happens.

But if it happens that your, ahem, non-favorites keep getting further ahead, and your team/friends/buddies/people-you-know-and-respect get nowhere, or worse, get punished, then you start believing the world is a) at best totally random and chaotic, b) subjectively capricious -- up to the mood of the moment, likes and dislikes without fair opportunity, etc., or c) worst of all, specifically malevolent. That's when paranoia is not just acceptable, but its a prudent and desirable survival trait.

Elsewise, people are looking to see what dramatic plots get forwarded, and which ones get twisted or shot down in flames.

To my mind, the world is currently suffering from a kind of inertial drag, a fever. Seems to be very hard to do anything, even if you put forward best efforts. There's too much punishment, and too little rewards.

If people saw more rewards without repercussions -- "You mean, I can just do (or have) XYZ? No strings?" -- then they might breath easier. People love Zia because, although capricious -- never know when you'll get your gift -- she gives them freely. When she comes on the 'who' you go "Yay!".

Well, those are a lot of words...

More simply put, we need more "Yay!" moments.

-Pete.

[Catharsis]

Originally posted by Dariel
The problem simply seems to be that fun depends on success and advancement.

All depends on how you define "fun"

I think fun depends on what goals you set out for yourself.

What about failure as a goal?

You know what I love to do BEST in the castle? I have this alt who just cannot succeed no matter how much s/he tries. Really pathetic and I hope s/he keeps on failing utterly. Does my alt go around bemoaning this and looking for comfort? Naw, that's no fun and generally irriates other people. Nope, s/he keeps trucking along and trying hard and hoping to succeed someday. (although I the player make sure failure is in the works)

Dunno if that's fun for everyone, but I suppose it depends what your goals are. My goals were NEVER to 'succeed and advance'. Honestly, Catharsis was a fluke, pure and simple. Luck, timing, whatever. Success wasn't as fun, so that alt was born so I could enjoy the humour in constant failure.

Leah

[Kyle]

I havent read page three yet, but let me remind you that its REALLY hard to make a plot, especialy with people droping out suddenly and even then, the castle at large doesnt accept the results. Example being Langshaw (however you spell that) who died because she didnt get her medication.
If we had more to work with we might end up makeing more plots that work. Nobody cares about my alts that died when I was training healers... its because I just loged off. (that and nobody was to farmiliar with those ones) so the healers I trained would get laughed at, because a lot of people here dont want to RP, they only accept word from people who can emote or people who were put in athority by the emoting CE people.

[Atama]

I havent read page three yet

I blame Gareth's post, which should have its own index, table of contents, and for most people a glossary. ;)

As for people not accepting plots not from CE... Not true. People will generally accept a believable plot idea, especially one that conforms to things already believed. If something seems contrary to plans CE has, though, don't expect us to believe it. For example, Kyle training a bunch of healers on his own is NOT something I would believe without CE backing, because it runs contrary to CE's plan for healers, and he would have no IC way to heal people that would back him up. On the other hand, if you gasped and grabbed your throat in the dining hall, I would believe that Kyle was choking to death. It all depends on what you are trying to get people to believe.

I once had a character who made outlandish claims, but I found ways to back them up. People started to suspect me as CE because these things worked, but of course I'm not. I just knew ways to "trick" people, and it was fun. :D

Plus I lucked out...

[Kyle]

On a note, I kinda thought that lossing a bet to Catharsis and becomeing a servant (one that studies healing in his spare time) would be fun... I could be a bartender... an NCP like the one they Have on TEC at the entarance...
So while im not online you could still carry on limited interaction with me. I serve drinks, I spread gosip, I wink at ladies... all while im not even around... but that would require some CE intervention.

[Kyle]

ok, to continue my never ending rant... Kyle was originaly a tragidy story... I didnt expect to pay, now that I am.... well I guess I failed at my goal of failing. But I actualy found I liked being the castle's only healer for the past 6(?) months...
Granted my group didnt go very far, but I blame that on lack of advertising and the fact that most of the people (mostly alts, we are still filled with alts now) said 'No skills? This sucks!' despite my best effort to kill/miam my alts for there entertainment... my 3 best students droped out when Pay hit...
So now what? My Severin fan club kinda never got visited by severin... usualy my 'prophesy' is pretty darn acurate 'Severin will come!' -sigh-
BTW, I was totaly off base on Jasmine too.
So Ill have to say im in Gareth's Catagory B.
I just Pray I can Make Apprentice to Severin (and thus fullfil my game goal and win the game :) ) before Anabeth gets all the skills from him and he dies (or Maylor dies) to provide an advancement place.

And yet STILL! (most important part of this post)
STILL I love this game... I mumble about people droping from my plots, I murrmer about my plots sucking because I have to ooc emote everything, I gibber about this and that... But this game Rocks.

THIS GAME ROCKS!

'whats that? you have rocks in your underpants?'
I even love the endearing bugs... I wana see if SH cats can be eaten.

So despite all the hassle this game causes from ooc work and ic work that just doesnt work... its still worth it... If it wasnt worth it. I wouldnt complain about it.
Mumble something about people not having timeing down.

Oh, could I play a servant sometime? Lets see... is there a recruting office?

[Kyle]

Well, I wasnt really doing anything, and that was the problem... I didnt want to do anything CE wouldnt back up... so it was basicaly how to keep people comfortable and how to tie bandages... im not sure if bandage tieing will be a skill, so maybe CE will back it up... but I figured that if the watch could do it then so could I.
It was like I said, the Severin fan club. But now that I actualy have some skills... ??? now what? I think ill have to learn more I guess.
Oh, and I developed a hiccup cure! (RL)

[Emris]

Ok I found this topic becuse I noticed I seemed to be posting many things on the forms, so I did a search for any of the posts that had my name... this one came up. (I found the one person that mentioned me... thank you for noticing me.)

Ok but know that I am here, I think that I shall post my thoughts on the matter. (witch seems to be plots...)

Ok, I have been involved in a couple of plots, but as most of them where romances... I was loosing what little of my mind I had left. So I created Emris. What I did to make him was to pick what I thought was my best trait and my worst trait and put them into him (Exagerated of course). So I figured my best trait is that I am smart, my worse trait would be I have very bad eye sight. Emris did not start out blind, but I realized latter that he needed more character, so I blinded him. While I was still tring to get the basic character down, I tried to start my first plot... what turned out to be a fallure (The seeking the cure for the Madness). Know that I have Emris's character defined better I am tring to run two plots at once... hopefully one will happen. The one I am working on most is tring to start a Guild of Science, and the second... well I know some of you have been saying that the secret plots are no fun... but... this one if it works, will affect everyone in the castle for sometime.

So what I guess what I am tring to say is that, finding a plot is sometimes hard, with all the romance plots out there the good ones get baried. Even though I have only been in the castle for a month, I am tring to make my own plots that will define Emris's character so that if anyone ever need's a blind scientist that tries to find out how magic items work they know were to look. I hope that I have made Emris unque.

So if your not finding plots try to create your own. I know many of you do not have things to offer now, but that should not stop you. Allow your plots to fail if you really think that it working would mean that you would have to give someone something that you do not have. At least then you will have been in a plot. I also know that I am not a storyplotter, but they can be busy sometimes, so if you ever need help with a plot let me know. I'll try to help you get your plot all ready and set to go into the castle, or to the storyplotter's so that they can do the hard work of new items and other odd things like that. About the worse that will happen if you ask me for help is I'll say, I do not know how to help... (well I might give you bad ideas... but I hope not.)

Poxson (Emris)

[Faruq]

Originally posted by Emris
[...]and the second... well I know some of you have been saying that the secret plots are no fun... but... this one if it works, will affect everyone in the castle for sometime.

So...

You want to make a plot that will affect everyone in the castle, but which is only open to a select few to participate in and possibly influence? :confused:

[Emris]

That's not quite what I ment... I mean that it is secret right now, and that I am not going to tell anyone anything about it... that way people will get pulled in to the plot and not even know it.

[Atama]

I think Emris means it will start out secret but then get revealed and involve everyone. Most good plots start out that way, in fact technically all do.

I'll use the Roland plot as an example because to me it's the greatest plot that Castle Marrach has ever had, and what any ambitious plots should live up to. It was like the OJ trial, pretty much everyone had an opinion, everyone who played at the time knew about it, it was exciting, it was mysterious, it was dangerous, and in a way everyone was involved.

It started as an Armsman of the Watch (Roland) and a founding member of the Duelists (Edouard) bickering because that's what Watchmen and Duelists do. It led to a duel, which sometimes happens (but surprisingly not often considering the amout of animosity) which was public. Back then duels were rare and it was a really big thing (and both characters were Skotos-controlled so it was an Event).

The secret was that Edouard's blade was poisoned. The person who did this got the poison and snuck around and managed to poison the blade without Edouard knowing. At this point the plot was a secret. Not until Roland melted into warm green jello did the plot become public.

Every good plot is going to start secret, whether it means sneaking around, or it means a conspiracy between a few people, or if it means it's in the player's head until he acts on it. However you look at it there's a brief time that the plot is hidden until it pops out like a Jack-in-the-Box and yells "surprise!". The ones that can be harmful in my opinion are the ones that never come out of the box. There's nothing wrong with private plots, they are cool, but if you think that there's any way at all you can share your plot with people please do so. I have found that letting others know what you're doing not only makes it fun for them, but more fun for you too.