Supply Burden?

[Hobbes]

The greater the demand for products, the greater the burden on the artisans to supply products.

We don't want artisan-type characters to be overwhelmed by orders because if it causes them to be too stressed to play their characters the way they want to. I suppose if the demand is that high the artisans can raise their prices accordingly, but some goods will have to flow in order for characters to survive.

In your opinion, how do we avoid the demand for products being too stressful on the PCs?

What, if applicable, are your experiences with item creation in other games?

[Lance]

In your opinion, how do we avoid the demand for products being too stressful on the PCs?


In my opinion, giving players the ability to play as an artisan or craftsman of advanced skill is something that must be done all-out. It is important to remember that, depending on how difficult it is to actually 'make' the products, have dozens, or even 'hundreds' of orders may not become 'stressful'. Different groups of players can achieve varying levels of efficiency.

My experience has been that the single best way to cause stress for a player is to allow them a way to gain responsibilities but not enable them to carry out those responsibilities. Stress (from my experience) usually is not the product of Yikes, I've too much to do, but rather, there is too much I cannot do. When a part of the supply chain gets disrupted for any reason, be it 'someone stole my supplies' to 'that guy who has all of my tools and nails lost his computer in a freak hampster accident', that's when stress sets in. You have something sitting on your To-Do list but you cannot DO it. This is further compounded by people who are impatient and start pressing the matter. In the most extreme cases, you can have dozens of people who come to believe that you, personally, are trying to piss them off, a feeling which begins to cause your crafter character to suffer even away from his crafting profession.

The best way of preventing this is to pro-actively enable artisan-types to do what they want. An artisan who has too many orders is one who can pick and choose his orders while allowing OTHER artisans to still have work that isn't chosen. An artisan who can up his production for 'profits' (be they a sense of happiness or additional $$$ in his pocket) is an enabled artisan. An artisan who can also downgrade his level of output (for vacation, or to focus on other things, or perhaps to make one exquisite masterpiece of his craft rather than the day to day dreariness of producing X widgets a day) is also enabled, as they are not stressing over the what-if's of not following a slavish routine of production.


Enabling is important.

Just as important is making it all worthwhile. Yes, you can make the most wonderful widget(s) at whatever speed you want whenever you want. You're the widget extra-ordinaire! But is it worth it? Is playing such a character OOCly enjoyable and worth the IC roleplay? A craftsman, by the very nature of their craft, are the cream of the crop. They have the skill to produce things that the average person just does not have. No matter how an individual may think of a specific trade, those who participate in it are elite masters of creation. Many go to online games to play 'the hero', the swashbuckling strong-guy who outperforms a dozen dastardlies and saves the princess, using the skills of his sword, learned over the course of his life from the greatest masters of the craft (and a few barroom brawls or out of necessity on the rough roads). What is commonly forgotten is that artisans are to the production economy what swashbucklers are to grunt soldiers. An artisan can make things that a hundred other people working in unison could not make for lack of experienced instruction in the craft.

Heroes are to high fantasy what artisans are to economy. Where a single hero can best a hundred enemies, an artisan can best a hundred laborers.

What's the point if you're character, struggling from a life of rags to learn the secrets of how to create, becomes an obstacle for other characters to get Item X?



Let the artisans have ALL of the tools at their disposal to do what they need to do, and make the environment one that is worthwhile.


What, if applicable, are your experiences with item creation in other games?


Closest to here is Skotos' own Castle Marrach, I play Lance. He's a carpenter and the most advanced PC carpenter in the game (as far as I know). Most of the suggestions I make from above are a result of seeing the results of having no ability to make things that needed to be made or no reason to make the things anyway.

For a while, for reasons in character and out, Lance just could NOT make furniture. What was initially quick and efficient service lagged days, then weeks, then months behind the old timetables, prompting people in general to complain about their lack of service. To note, Lance quite literally did all of this work 'out of the goodness of his own heart', with no pay of any sort nor opportunity for advancement given to him for months. Believe me when I say that RP'ing a character who more often than not gets whined at and harassed for not kindly slaving away for people of varying levels of repute and annoyance is the epitome of stressful.

In perfect contrast, the ability to pick and choose work as well as have the capabilities of 'getting stuff done' is sheer bliss.
When the freedom to pick and choose tasks, delegate work, and feel as though the results of efforts (both IC and OOC) are 'worthwhile' all come together, it makes playing an artisan-type character worthwhile.

[Hobbes]

As we will have a money economy, the market will enable artisans. If there is a severe lack of people making widgets and Mr. and Mrs. Ultrarich are willing to pay top deben (currency) for efficient service, some PC is going to come around and learn the trade. We are going to structure the artisans in such a way that would allow skill acquisition (to a point) to be accessible. Since we won't be using a system of favour based on human response and politics, artisans won't have to wait for reward.

What you say is true; artisans may pick and choose which orders they want to fill based on the prestige and lucre resulting from the order. If you are turned away by metalsmith A, metalsmith B will theoretically seek your business because you have money to spend and he/she may have different motivations for why they are in the business. When they first start off, I see artisans taking whatever they can get. If they rise in power and prestige, then they can pick and choose the larger orders, and maybe even employ underlings to help.

If you want to find out what we are planning in more detail, you have to vote in the Menti poll over in the Glory of the Nile forum here. (http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26415)

[Arian]

I would like to echo Lance's sentiments. I play Arian who among other things is a semi-accomplished Jeweler on Castle Marrach. I feel the biggest problem with being an Artisan in our game is the really paradoxical expectations in our game. The demand is very high because people know or think we can make things very, very, quickly and without any real limitations, which isn't true on either part.

The game is such where we can make things fairly quickly either by our abilities or by helping the coders make specialized items. This along with the other player's mentalities of how having stuff is the point of the game (which in Castle Marrach, it isn't) makes it rather stressful.

I also do believe not having an explicit economic vehicle (favor is not a tangible thing unlike good, old hard cash) hurts us here in CM. Because favor is a rather subjective forum of 'currency' unlike most game's monetary system, it's rather hard to evaluate which characters should deserve which type and quality of merchandise. That is part of the power of being an artisan, is that through one's opinion of the person requesting the item, the artisan can decide how well of an object would he or she like to make for that person.

[Forsooth]

"If there is a severe lack of people making widgets and Mr. and Mrs. Ultrarich are willing to pay top deben (currency) for efficient service, some PC is going to come around and learn the trade." - Hobbes

This arguement presumes that IC money is a strong OOC player motivation. That's doubtful, unless money opens many new possibilities within the game. Plus, that means crafting has to be one of the game's top moneymaking activities.

I suspect that making crafting inherently rewarding is the better approach here. And if that's your approach, CM experience is definitely relevant.

[Hobbes]

This arguement presumes that IC money is a strong OOC player motivation.

The accumulation of wealth is not for its own sake, but rather for access to the upper echelons of power, the ability to recruit bodyguards and a larger estate, and hold more influence over the country. One can do the same by seeking a position in government, working up the ranks in the temples, or being instrumental in a battle and gaining recognition in the military.

My argument therefore assumes that IC money is an OOC player motivation, but not necessarily a strong one. Given that there are so many things (and people) that money can buy, I do make the presumption that someone will step up to the proverbial plate and seek a role as a crafter. The fewer there are, the harder the work but the more there is to be gained.

CM experience is definitely relevant, I agree. I want to avoid some of the burnout that occurs there before the game even begins.

----

Arian: there will be limitations in that the supply of the raw goods necessary to create items will ebb and flow depending on the mood of Osiris and other outside factors, including war and famine. Either people understand those supply factors, or they do not. If they want to help relieve them, they can go pray to Osiris. Otherwise, there is nothing a papyrus maker can do if there are no reeds.

We aren't sure what the final system will look like, but I'm hoping to create small time delays before a product is ready. I have no idea if this is possible, but it should take some time for a stain to set in wooden furniture, etc.

The artisan can still stop selling goods to someone they don't like. Even worse, Ptah (god of industry) can issue a prohibition against a person. Not to worry though, nomads from elsewhere still bring in interesting goods accessible to even the most antagonistic character.

[Lance]

I would have to say that most characters would be heavily influenced by IC money. Assumably, money can purchase goods and services (pretty basic economic concept). I can reliably say that quite a few players will have characters who go after the $$$ positions.

Secondly, basic supply and demand should make crafting an entertaining role with the introduction of a monetary system (favor? Ha. One could arguably say that Lance has had one of the strongest effects on the physical structure of the very environment many characters/PC's reside in, yet the benefits offered from such are neither significant nor tangible for such a level of input). It's like having your own business! Who wouldn't want that? CM experience isn't the best business model to follow; hence, CM experience is relevent, but only as an example of what not to follow. As Arian said, there is a huge demand for things. Anybody remember the old 'supply and demand' charts in high school? For the most part, many crafters could get away with an 'infinite supply'. Just get out those poof books or go to the supply rooms (or even ask an NPC seamstress) and you can collect a whole bunch of 'craftables'. For this reason, the value of a plain shirt is negligible. It's literally worth but a few seconds of effort. How about those price versus demand charts, where the maximized income is derived from setting a price where the demand and income yield the most money? CM experience has shown me that people are often and constantly asking for things because, save for a small wait, there is no price.

As Arian pointed out, the 'get stuff' mentality combined with people's tendencies to hoard items in an online environment (one of these Skotos Articles discussed the issue very well), and the virtually non-existent cost of craftable items leads to the huge influx of orders. The relative lack of 'profit' that such a position entails combined with the (often thankless) work necessary for crafters to output in combination with demanding and thankless customers who oftentimes contribute nothing to job benefits or satisfaction ultimately yields only frustration and annoyance.

Honestly, a night where Lance only gets a dozen or so carpentry scrolls is a 'good night'. If I don't have Lance make a scroll run, there are often times dozens of scrolls waiting for him, a majority craft-related.



Following Arian's thoughts, 'good, old hard cash' will reduce the 'gimme effect', reduce the frustration on crafter's shoulders, and make products more enjoyable on both the consuming and receiving end, as the relative and perceived 'value' of the goods are higher. Being able to alter your workload and affect your income by playing around with the price is one of the benefits of owning a business. Without any price, there is no way to reduce demand save by making customers wait for a longer time (and telling people to 'wait another month' only indirectly fuels your own frustration).

Any system which requires raw supplies to convert into finished goods, some sort of currency exchange system, and individual crafter freedom to play with their work schedule and pricing system within the confines of the world around them should alleviate many of the stresses that I have personally experienced. Being able to play with these values also has the added effect of allowing more individual freedom as a gamer for each crafter. Simply put, the casual player who only puts in a few hours a week should not advertise the 'blow out savings!' he can offer and instead focus on more expensive, elite goods; whereas the more hard-core gamers might experiment with mass production of goods.


Putting power in the crafter's hands reduces frustration or enables the players themselves to avoid it. There's a reason why enterpreneurs are so lauded and respected (and even rich) whereas your wage worker is often times not driving the Mercedes. Crafters are the heroes of the industrial world, elites of their craft. When they have no choice whatsoever in the decisions they make, it tires them and annoys everyone else. Not the best recipe. Choices,on the other hand, are yummy for all.

[hollydragon]

If there is a severe lack of people making widgets and Mr. and Mrs. Ultrarich are willing to pay top deben (currency) for efficient service, some PC is going to come around and learn the trade.

Another note on this, from CM experience - due to the fact that only som played characters can teach, and the time consuming way of learning (which has both good and bad aspects), in CM this just isn't possible.

Your top crafter drops out and NO ONE else can get up to their skill. Skills are highly limited and rare in the CM environment. The seamstresses especially go out of their way to make sure no-one but the VP has top skills. Now there are good reasons for it, but it makes players feel held back and untrusted.

Will it be possible to advance slowly on your own or with an NPC in GN, or will it be RP'ed teaching or a mix? The ability and length of time to get a skill has a sizeable affect on the production of things - and in TEC the repetitive skill-point training reduces RP at times and gives extra power to the unemployed power gamers who sit there all day to make their way ahead, while those with less time drop way behind and feel less gratified and satisfied.

Also, this brings up the RP factor - must you have in your possesion certain tools for accurate RP? Do you make it so that they are necessary to practice your trade? But then if someone steals them.... (as will always happen, it seems *sigh*). RPing lessons is great fun. Sometimes people don't have the time for hugely intense RP, sometimes they get called away for RL, but a good RP lesson can be fun and they are good things to encourage.

But then we get to how much RP is needed, because it can get like OOC homework, the constant study of ancient dyes, healing arts etc. just to get ahead in the game - and once again it encourages the players who have free time on their hands and not the ones who like a few hours of fun after a hard days work (which pays for those premium accounts)

:) Looking forward to trying out GN when it is ready.

Jane