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murf
08-25-2001, 05:14 PM
Travis,

I think the real issue here is the struggle between coercion and free expression in online games. So as to avoid putting words in Ms. Mulligan’s mouth, let me say that I may be completely off-base here. However, her focus on player-run justice systems left me thinking about what I’ve seen going on in the world of online games and, more importantly, the philosophies around it.

I’m a big fan of Raph Koster’s (www.legendmud.org/raph/) work, though I think I enjoy his writing about games more than the games themselves. One thing I’ve seen come out of his work on UO and his discussions on the Star Wars game has been the issue of coercion, specifically, how do designers get players to play the game the way the designers intend it to be played. Now, at first brush, this looks wrong; players should be allowed to play a game however they want to, right? Well, how would you like it if your opponent in chess shoved his queen up your nose every time you jumped one of his pieces? Not a fun way to play chess, and certainly not the way chess was intended to be played, I’m sure. The same is true for online games, and vital for games that are supposed to evoke a certain sort of atmosphere.

Let’s take Star Wars for example. We all know what the Star Wars universe is like. At its core, Star Wars is about swashbuckling adventure, cool gear and ships, strange aliens and locations, and the struggle between good and evil on the grand stage of galactic events and the hidden chambers of each individual’s soul. A game that takes place in the Star Wars universe needs to evoke these themes. Otherwise, it isn’t Star Wars. It could still be a commercial success, but the designers wasted the money spent on the franchise; they would have done better by everyone involved if they had just developed their own world.

The big challenge, of course, isn’t graphics or making cool ships or coding communication systems. The challenge is getting the players to play like the world they are in is the Star Wars galaxy. Players are very good at bringing everything down to the bottom line. Any game that has a strong achiever (www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm) focus to it (which is just about any game with levels or improvable stats) is going to have a strong, vocal community hell-bent on improving their characters. These players will do whatever it takes to “level up”, whether it fits with the themes of the game or not. The designer response to this is to attempt to build systems into the game that encourage or coerce (www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_38.html) the players into actions that promote or reinforce the theme and style of the designers’ vision.

And this is where a possible conflict exists between Entertainment and Art. Entertainment says that the primary focus of design needs to be people having fun. Art says that the primary focus of design needs to be the vision of the designers as artists. A game based on Tolkien’s Middle Earth should have very few wizards in it. Designers attempting to recreate the feel of the Middle Earth books should create a magic system that discourages powerful wizards. Mulligan would say this is bad design because lots of people who love playing fantasy RPGs enjoy creating powerful wizard characters. Anything that limits the players’ ability to play such a character will drive away customers.

Frankly, I think a little conscious coercion is a good thing. I enjoy exploring the creations of others and the feeling of being in another world that comes with the suspension of disbelief that coercive systems attempt to encourage. In short, playing in a game that encourages me and my fellow players to play as if we’re in a setting that I find fascinating is good entertainment that I’m willing to pay for. However, I’d also love to see a purer version of what Ms. Mulligan is espousing: a game in which the players design the systems and settings as they play, or just by playing in the game. But I’m not sure I’d hang around. A pandemonium of player-visions, without any central theme or foundation, sounds like a neat place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.

Brian

Kwil
08-25-2001, 07:50 PM
Uhh... first you say:
Originally posted by murf
So as to avoid putting words in Ms. Mulligan’s mouth, let me say ...

then later go on to say:

Designers attempting to recreate the feel of the Middle Earth books should create a magic system that discourages powerful wizards. Mulligan would say this is bad design ...

So.. which is it?

Beyond that, I don't think either of you nailed what Ms. Mulligan was going for. She didn't comment on setting up a style of play that "discourages" anything. What she was talking about was coming down like the Hand of God and saying "This shall be So.." and making a change to fit the vision of what you're doing.

Her article was primarily devoted to critiquing those designers who, when seeing the game is not going the way they intended, change the ground rules to force it into that path.

She readily acknowledges that not everybody is going to like the same thing. So if you really love being in a world full of wizards, you're not going to play the Middle Earth game that places serious restrictions on them, and there's nothing wrong with this.

On the other hand, if you run a middle earth campaign and find that 3/4ths of the paying players are becoming wizards and you don't like it - do you have the freedom to go in there and change the system so that they lose their wizardliness? In some sense, you've now decieved those players who came into the game because they heard how wonderful it was to be a wizard in middle-earth.

In essence, her article was one on being a good GM. She's suggesting that some game designers are like the GM who'll drop an asteroid on the characters if they decide that they'd rather not rescue the princess today, thanks. And she's warning that this type of behavior will drive people away from your game.

JesteR
08-25-2001, 08:54 PM
:mad: This has nothing to do with the topic but these talking games are crap.I want one where you accually walk around and fight stuff, not these pieces-of-**** where you write in what u want to do!!! :mad:

Dariel
08-26-2001, 02:48 AM
Not only has your post nothing to with the topic, but neither does it have anything to do with intelligence.

Have a nice day.

Atama
08-26-2001, 11:21 AM
If ignorance is bliss, why is JesteR so upset?:confused:

murf
08-28-2001, 08:59 AM
Kwil,

You're absolutely right with your quotes! Bad poster! Bad, bad, bad...

However, the suggested reading in Ms. Mulligan's article are about designing games in order to herd players in certain directions, rather than "nerfing" afterwards to "fix" how the game is actually played. And I personally find the emphasis on carrots and sticks I've seen in recent writings, both here in the Skotos articles as well as by others like Koster, somewhat disturbing. Maybe it's as necessary as umpires in baseball, but it still grates a bit.

And thanks again for catching me in a bit of bad writing. :)

Brian

Annatar
08-28-2001, 09:45 AM
Ahhh the old arguement of Art vs Entertainment, how many papers have I written on ye. ;). Now I know why I'm a theatre arts major as well as computer science major.

JessicaM
08-30-2001, 07:45 AM
Interesting comments abut the BTH column, thanks, all!

What the main thrust of the column was really all about, was intentions; do you intend to create Art, or is your intention to have a kick-butt game that people will want to play for years? The two are not necessarily antithetic, but history of the MMOG industry seems to show that intending to create Art generally results in disaster.

And, frankly, I'm just plain getting tired of having players of for-pay multi-player games treated as test subjects in virtual world art nouveau pieces, :) .

Brian Rucker
09-10-2001, 09:51 AM
When you get into questions about 'what is art' or what is 'entertainment' I can't help but feeling one's missing the point. I agree with Travis here that a designer is really setting out to design for an audience and the tastes of that audience will generally determine the sophistication or originality of the title.

Online games, in my experience, aren't close to art or even performance art. They're societies. When you talk about player justice or PKers you're talking about a social ecology not a theatre troupe. If you look at the factors that bind societies together, IRL, you're talking about mutual protection and generation of wealth (comfort) and social context (meaning).

How do you create the conditions for social interaction other than the most superficial kind if every character is immortal, armed with godlike powers and exists only to whip the next AI animated monster that dwells and regenerates safely away from one's living room. We can assume social interaction is a generic goal of multiplayer games, I think, and we can also assume that interactions can be judge qualitatively.

Frankly, I don't see any massively multiplayer game that does a good job as a 'roleplaying' game (providing reasons to play interesting and complex characters with varied personal goals and biographies that are relevant to, or interactive with, the in-game world). These games tend to be a series of dungeon crawls and powerups with any roleplaying, in character, essentially pure make-believe that's more a testament to the desire of folks for a realistic and immersive environment than vindication of the existing one.

So the best we can do is to provide some sources of dramatic tension. AI NPCs can't do this. Staff at a MMRPG can't keep up with each group. Instead global solutions must be implimented. Asheron's Call tried a changing storyline but the constantly regenerating nature of the quests made them pretty dull. You'd know the story before you got started. Ultima Online tried PKers and IC social justice which, of course, didn't work brilliantly because without fear of permanent death there's little incentive not to gank folks right and left.

My solution is for more strategic/economic issues to come into play and for the imposition of permanent death as a social factor while allowing PKing to exist. A MUD called Armageddeon has had excellent success with this and many good roleplayers, nonMUDers and MUSHers, have ended up over there. A new MMRPG called Atriarch will be experimenting with this as well as having characters born into 'families' of existing characters. There's more social context and more tension.

It's not art. It's social engineering. And online it has to be considered.

Re: Murf on Koster - I agree. I like his ideas better than his games so far but at least he's trying. :)

honkwomp
01-31-2002, 05:41 PM
You have captured it for me. UO is using "scenarios" to introduce content to the game. The designers have declared that eventually, the game will be impacted significantly (outside new "loot" or skills). There will be a carrot in the form of winning and losing. Many players could care less about winning or losing, they just want the content, and a sizable portion do not participate. Basically, if enough players opt out, the shard (server) can lose.

A better example is involuntary acts one player may perform upon another. At one time, they were uncontrolled, and despite the fact that the penalties for murder (pk) are severe and include the permanant loss of 20 percent of all your stats, despite the fact that due to the severe penalties getting pkd in uo is about as likely as a random server crash completely wiping out all the players on all shards (including housing and posessions) with no valid backup, despite the fact that every shard (sever) got a mirror facet 2 years ago that is completely void of any pking, (its hard coded, you cannot perform negative acts on other players without them being part of game systems in the form of guilds)UO is still known as game of noob gankers by a substantial part of the gaming world
As Ms Mulligan stated, players fled in droves. But many did not quit the game, they simply moved to the "good side" of the server that did not allow criminal acts. Within days of housing on "trammel" most of the populace lived there. No theivery, no murder. Despite the fact that murderers are virtually non existant in UO, despite the fact that the odds of being PKd are quite low, despite the fact that competition for resources and loot is almost non exsistant on the "bad server side" most players never travel to the side of the server that allows crimes to be committed on another player. There are plenty of PVP systems in the game, anyone who wants to PVP can do so through guilds or factions (factions is a kind of super guild). What I am talking about is having another player attack your or steal from you, when you have not consented thru any of the in game systems Now after most of the players fled to the good side and while many players had at least one character in voluntary PVP, and even though it was so obvious to the people running the game that they even put all new players on the "good server" side, they still adhere to their artsy vision of player justice. so much so, that although the player distribution good side bad side is probably close to 80/20 or even 90/10, more than half of the server resources are dedicated to allowing criminal acts and non consenual PVP. Well, gotta qualify that. In a sense, if you travel to the "bad server" it technically is giving consent, but it is a passive system. Half of every server is dedicated to the "bad" side, and then you have entire servers dedicated to the bad side, both facets. I know the us one is kinda deserted, even though murder on that server carries no penalties. I suspect the asian shards using the "evil" rule set are probably busier.
Anyway, what the vast majority of customers want for a playe style is quite clear, they voted with their feet. Yet all those resources are tied up for what the players do not want. Developers "fix" stuff that does not need to be fixed, and leave long standing bugs to rot, all the while introducing new bugs to very basic game systems that are caused by the fixes that should not have been done in the first place.
I believe this is along the lines Ms Mulligan speaks to, where devs adhere to a concept simply because it is dear to them or is what they envisioned while ignoring the player base. THe devs feel that some of the "art" will be lost if they give in to player demands. The solution is so simple most reading this thread already know it. Its called a PVP switch. UO has already declared this a dead option. Yet just the other day, they started a thread on " how can we get players back to the deserted facet of the shard"

And for those that do not understand why players stay if this happens so much, its because of the time and emotion that players have invested in a game. I myslef have 2 years at about 20-40 hours a week in UO for example. Also, keep in mind that the game has a lot of other compelling things to keep me going :)


Originally posted by Kwil
Uhh... first you say:


So.. which is it?

Beyond that, I don't think either of you nailed what Ms. Mulligan was going for. She didn't comment on setting up a style of play that "discourages" anything. What she was talking about was coming down like the Hand of God and saying "This shall be So.." and making a change to fit the vision of what you're doing.

Her article was primarily devoted to critiquing those designers who, when seeing the game is not going the way they intended, change the ground rules to force it into that path.

She readily acknowledges that not everybody is going to like the same thing. So if you really love being in a world full of wizards, you're not going to play the Middle Earth game that places serious restrictions on them, and there's nothing wrong with this.

On the other hand, if you run a middle earth campaign and find that 3/4ths of the paying players are becoming wizards and you don't like it - do you have the freedom to go in there and change the system so that they lose their wizardliness? In some sense, you've now decieved those players who came into the game because they heard how wonderful it was to be a wizard in middle-earth.

In essence, her article was one on being a good GM. She's suggesting that some game designers are like the GM who'll drop an asteroid on the characters if they decide that they'd rather not rescue the princess today, thanks. And she's warning that this type of behavior will drive people away from your game.