The Code of Chivalry and roleplay thereof

[JeffCrook]

Hooboy.

A) Maybe this should have been an in-character post.

B) Out of character, you are correct provided this is a historical fantasy of the middle ages. If it is pure fantasy, and I am not talking Xena, then chivalry itself has other rules. First of all, there is no infidel, not in the historical sense, as there are no saracens in Castle Marrach, nor a church, nor God in the capital sense of the word. And since Chivalry is so heavily tied to religious beliefs, if the religious beliefs do not make the distinction, then neither should the knight. As a matter of fact, it would not be unusual, and might even be fun, if the religious beliefs hold the opposite opinion. But that is for another world.

But in pure fantasy, the examples of heroic, chivalric women are numerous and well-founded. I will give you one non-Xena example that should help. Middle Earth. I point to Eowyn, the sister of Eomer, who fulfilled in a most exemplary fashion the chivalric female knight. Also, in olden times, there was Luthien, who pulled ol' Beren's bacon out of the fire more than once.

Of course, if that was an in-character post, you already know that.

[Seidl]

Originally posted by Malichor:

The high roleplay potential, is being thouroughly thrashed when it is suggested thast i consider choosing my words, when stating the plain facts that women have no place in a duel, if a woman is dishonored, to such a point, a champion is chosen.

The mideval roleplay is not fricken Xena warrior princess. A woman who wields a weapon will eventually go down. and will never hold serious position in court

sorry this isnt politically correct, and im all for equal opportunity.. but the idea of a woman taking up arms, or fulfilling a "mans" role in courtly fashion is an impossibility. IM-POSS-A-BILL-A-TEE.


Except it has been shown IC that in this Castle at least, women are fully expected to hold weapons if they wish to. Armsman Carey leading weapon practice. Duelist Allenya, Calla Dane, etc.

You can feel this is an afront to your dignity, and role play it. But you shouldn't object to others when they interact with the women of the castle who carry blades as part of their jobs.

When you have attained a blade for yourself, and can best the above 3 women in duels, I shall consider your point made, but till then I'm going to play in the world that the Skotos staff seem to be making: A fantasy world filled with intrigue and mystery - where women do seem to be able to hold their own in a fight.

-=- Matt aka. Martel

[StaciD]

Malichor and all,

The issue of gender roles and historical accuracy was considered carefully by the game design team. Yes, we may have bowed to some nebulous "politically correct" standard by making it possible for women to bear weapons and fight their own battles. But the simple fact is that today's women--of whom we expect fully half our player base to be--enjoy whacking each other with swords (in games) just as much as men do. There is no reason to require them to play male characters in order to do this--that would result in alienating many fine players and also cause a very sexually unbalanced castle population.

Please bear in mind that, while the setting of Castle Marrach is based on Medieval and Rennaissance culture and society, it is not historical. The world of Castle Marrach is not our world--it is a fantasy, pure and simple. And because it is fantasy, we are able to determine what is proper and what is not.

I do apologize if this lessons your enjoyment of the game, and your opinions will probably have bearing on the development of later, more historically-based games down the line (see the thread on racial/gender discrimination on the 1849 game, for instance).

You are certainly free to continue playing your character as being outraged at the presence of women bearing arms, just so long as your realize you will be chastised (In Character) for your views, and it's not likely to stop it from happening (though it would make an interesting plot thread if your character were to find others who shared the same view and form a society opposed to women in such roles...) In the meantime, I hope you forgive us our surrender to modern, popular ideals in this arena, and continue to contribute to roleplay in the Castle in a productive and enjoyable fashion.

Staci D.

[Malichor]

You mistake alienating people for offering them a roleplaying challenge

and as for sexually unbalanced... you must surely be forgetting how well the spoken word will command, if given the right conveyance, swords or no.

since (apparently) all the guild leaders are built in as women ( cant verify, just seems like it.) I can see no point in even trying

Pity PC had to ruin this potentially interesting game

[JeffCrook]

Originally posted by Malichor:
Pity PC had to ruin this potentially interesting game

As someone who abhors PC in all its forms, I do not see this issue as PC. As I stated before, historically, the European and Japanese chivalric periods did limit the role of swordwhacker to the highborn males. But a few centuries previous to that chivalric period, this was not the case. The recent discovery of a burial site in England containing a female gladiator is proof of this, as are recent finds linked to the previously-mythical Amazons. Also, as I noted earlier, chivalric female heroes from fantasy literature is not a new invention. I noted Tolkien, but there was also Robert E. Howard's Red Sonja (sp?) and Belite characters. Both these authors date from well before the PC era. Even in chivalric times, there were special instances in which women donned armor and went into battle (of course, these are arguable, but generally true), most notably Joan of Arc.

The author or creator of a world defines gender roles rather early in the world's conception, as well as how closely the world will resemble the real or historical earth. Robert E. Howard's Hyborean Age of Conan has both extremes. There are the sloe-eyed doxies hawking their wares and princesses a-plenty in need of rescue, but there are also women who carve their way in the world with the sword or magic or seduction. Do we complain that Howard was being politically correct or succumbing to Xena-ism because he said that Cimmerian women fought alongside their men in defense of their homes? No. He was being historically accurate, drawing a parallel between the Cimmerians and the Celts (and possible Vandals and Goths), but without slavishly (now there's an insulting word for the PC) adhering to historical precedent. Yet Conan held to many of those ideas we ascribe to chivalry. Shouldn't he then have take the sword from Belite's hand, dragged her from the helm of her ship, and told her to peel potatoes in the galley, because she is a woman and shouldn't be leading pirates on raids? She'd have laughed and had him thrown overboard. Not because it was PC - Howard's audience was in large part male. She'd have done it because that was her character.

So I wouldn't call it PC just because it isn't true to a vision of a small period in the history of a small portion of a world.

[Erica]

Frankly, its an RPG. If you dont' like it IC fine, deal with it IC.

However its already been covered, there will ALWAYS be female players and female characters that want to deck it out for themselves. I'd like to face attituides like yours in character, but there is no place for it out of character.

If I wanted to play a reclusive and submissive female I'd do it. infact my secondary character is quite like this.

I will keep working to do what women typically did not in a historical period. But until it becomes a historical game, you can bet it all I'll keep fighting the fight as I will.

-=Arrion=-

[ChristopherA]

Originally posted by JeffCrook:
[B]But in pure fantasy, the examples of heroic, chivalric women are numerous and well-founded. I will give you one non-Xena example that should help.[B]

Historically there are also a few: Joan of Arc of France, and Queen Boadecia, ancient British queen who in AD 60 led a revolt against Roman rule.

-- Christopher Allen

[Malichor]

I beleive in these ten commandments of the code of chivalry

However, there seems to be a trend of "PC"
in the roleplay, and frankly, i find it.. ruinous

The high roleplay potential, is being thouroughly thrashed when it is suggested thast i consider choosing my words, when stating the plain facts that women have no place in a duel, if a woman is dishonored, to such a point, a champion is chosen.

The mideval roleplay is not fricken Xena warrior princess. A woman who wields a weapon will eventually go down. and will never hold serious position in court

sorry this isnt politically correct, and im all for equal opportunity.. but the idea of a woman taking up arms, or fulfilling a "mans" role in courtly fashion is an impossibility. IM-POSS-A-BILL-A-TEE.

If your offended.. then you dont understand the nature of midevial society, like it or lump it. This game revolves around court intrigues... wanna play xena? go play everquest

I am looking forward to serious, well thought out responses to this post.
of course, flames will be met with the hand.


1. Thou shalt beleive all that the church teaches and shall obey all her commandments.

2. Thou shalt defend the church.

3. Thou shalt respect all weaknesses and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.

4. Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.

5. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.

6. Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy.

7. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.

8. Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word.

9. Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.

10. Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against injustice and evil.

[Erica]

More thoughts on this topic.. this is a long one so buckle up....

As someone who works and plays at renaissance and medieval faires and festivals, I've come to learn my fair share of period customs, traditions and lifestyles. Why? Because it is required study material for most faire folk. What has the reading taught me? That the time periods were bloody, hellish, sexist, immoral days where power and station was everything. Life was hard enough if you were a man, but the life of a woman was simply cruel. Simple things like a rotting tooth, or looking sideways at nobility could bring a swift or sometimes painful death. And yet, life went on.

Is this what we portray at a festival? Of course not. Why? Because no one wants to be subject to the hard cruel fact of what life really was like. Festival and faire goers want to partake in the pageantry and chivalry (or at least the parts that we like to believe were good and pure), and for a day or a few hours they want to pretend life was beautiful. They come to see valiant knights on horseback, kings and queens in full royal festivities. Patrons attend these shows to be entertained and want to leave feeling great.

At a faire or festival we do maintain some of the hierarchy, but even we must admit and accept this is the new millennium. People want equal rights. Its entertainment, and in such we need to satisfy the needs of many, not just the needs of the few.

An RPG isn't much different. It is something we are drawn to as a source of entertainment. Its a place we go for a few hours each day to escape the cruel reality of the real world and let our imaginations run free. In places like Castle Marrach, we are presented with the opportunity to believe that a knight is just and true, and holds to the code of chivalry to the word. His heart is pure and full of passion. We come to witness the pageantry of a courtier move across a hall, the train on her silk and velvet gown trailing gently behind her. We come to witness the magic and mystery of an unknown world unfolding about us. To see and maybe learn a little of the arcane arts from the unseen Wizard in his tower, or the dark and foreboding doctor in the dungeons below. We gather together to tell stories to awaken and feed the imagination's soul.

Historically the knights templar were a group of mercenaries out upon the lands. They were responsible for much bloodshed. When the church stepped in and gave them their title of knights templar and the code was laid down, many of the knights upheld it, however these same knights were the ones that raped and killed the men, women and children, and pillaged the villages they came across. Fascinating and heartbreaking for the historian. But its not something I want to spend my evenings role playing.

I'll close this post by simply saying, there are two sides to every coin, and with the historical aspects of any game or organizations there are the two sides. The purists and the entertains. Games are meant to be fun, and not necessarily to regurgitate history. If that is what Castle Marrach was about, then there would be no grinning cats, hissing shadows, wizards/sorceresses, necromancers, or folks with no memories of how they came to be awakening in quiet color coordinated rooms with magical portals leading to mysterious and foreboding halls.

Marrach doesn't exist in the real world, it never did, and it never will (though I'd pay to see that too!!) If historical pureness is desired, then might I suggest you contact your local chapter of the SCA and ask for the nearest purist association leads.

[Brahm]

I would add to Erica's post a statement which She and I have spoken on before;
Knighthood and Chivalry are fine and beautiful ideals, too bad humans have to be involved.

[LadySilverwolf]

Originally posted by Brahm:
I would add to Erica's post a statement which She and I have spoken on before;
Knighthood and Chivalry are fine and beautiful ideals, too bad humans have to be involved.

*chuckles*... yep... it is amazing how we even see ourselves as the destroyers of Chivalry and Honor. I think that is why many people select RPG's such as Caslet Marrach to reintroduce this very basic ideas back into existance.

I know that when I play a character, I have a set idea of how that Character will interact with those around him/her. Whether it is to select a path of honor or treachery. I also find it amazing how many folks actually bring in their own suppositions and experiences into play in their very characters. Each of us should take a look at what we have developed in our characters and see which part of them is actually a part of us, whether it is the dreams of trying to attain a specific goal in our lives, such as becoming a leader amoung our peers, or whether it is to see how far they can get the things they desire most out of life.

Roleplaying is a way to live out our ideas and a way to reach out and touch others in ways that we can not do in real life. A lady wishing to weild a sword in a game could be a lady who wishes to actually fights battles of words on the podium in real life.

Again... just my two cents... http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif

[Monkey]

I hope this meets Malichor's requirement for a serious, well thought out response.

Chivalry had many different commandments and codes depending on the region, the era, and in some cases, the knightly order.

I'm not sure which source Malichor draws his code from, but it is not the only code available in the real world, let alone the infinite possibilities available in a fantasy world.

I want to play my character Philo as a chivalrous character, but I have no one code in mind while I'm playing him. Instead I have an amalgam of codes in my head which seem appropriate to the setting, including the one in the Marrach Player's Book, and some of my own.

If we played a historically accurate game, our characters would never get to be chivalrous, wield swords, or engage in political intrigue. Our characters would never rise above the station they were born at, which would mean that many of us would end up playing serfs with nothing to do but obey orders. Yeah, I could play such a game and even have some fun. But once I'd reached the bounds of what my character could do, I'd lose interest.

I'm not sure why Malichor ties chivalry to the idea that women can't wield swords, but I think that it's absurd to claim that:

A woman who wields a weapon will eventually go down. and will never hold serious position in court

1) Any person, man or woman, who wields a weapon will eventually go down. Nobody is capable of winning every battle they fight. Consider the lesson behind the story of David and Goliath.

2) Women did hold serious positions in court. The theme of the game extends from the Middle Ages into the Renaissance. Eleanor of Aquitaine in the early 1100's, Queen Margaret of Denmark and Norway in the late 1300's, Margaret of Anjou in the mid 1400's, and Queen Elizabeth I of Great Britain who ruled during part of the English Renaissance are examples of women in 'serious' court positions.

I hope the lack of realism will not keep Malichor from playing.

--Monkey (aka Philo)

[Nefaratus]

G'day Fellow Marrachians...

I heartily concur with some of the posts regarding "historical accuracy" versus "roleplaying."

I feel that regardless of the predominantly male dominant roles for what many see as the chivalrous and adventuring careers in much (though not all) of history, roleplaying is vicarious play and exploration. To pigeon-hole characters into sex, race, religious, or philosophical lines, however historically correct (or not), would be to stereotype players in a game, that while loosely based on some historic facts, is still a world of fiction. There are no stereotypes in Marrach (yet). This isn't a historical REINACTMENT, this is a fantasy game. I feel it would defeat the concept of the "imagination" that dominates roleplaying. Boundaries should be overthrown in roleplay.

That said, history is all well and fine (though the truths of history are often buried with those who lost, not won), but history need not be a restriction on fun (for everyone), but just act as a tone/setting guideline.

My two cents. Now stop reading this mindless post and GO PLAY! http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif

-Nefaratus

[Kargh]

You forgot one.

Thou shalt not pick, jab, prod, stab, hit, pinch, poke, kick or slap any old men sleeping within the castle walls.

This is considered rude and cowardly.

Much thanks
Corbin

[Atama]

Oops, sorry Corbin for poking you yesterday then. Sara thought you were dead, though. We had to ease her worries.

Zero

[nastasha]

Personally I think that whacking each other with swords is way more fun and more "civilized" than cat fights. I find cat fights rather distasteful but brawls between guys do sound appealing http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif