HUGE Can O'Worms: Rape

[skitten]

Ok. I'm about to open up a whole can of worms here but this particular topic is starting to upset me on an OOC personal level. I realize that many people want to have traumatic, interesting pasts... and rape is on heck of a button pusher. However, I have a couple of things I would like to say before things get too out of hand.

First, rape is a horrible, traumatic experience. No one in their right mind thinks this act is sexy, romantic or cool. It's all about power and fear. Frankly, it sucks.

Second, those who have been raped do NOT run around shouting about it and being anti-rape. They avoid mention and memory of it. They are angry but it is more of an anger at men or a certain type of man. It is not something a woman advertises for sympathy. There are a whole host of bad emotions like anger, fear, guilt, shame and self loathing that a woman has to deal with.

Third, there is an extreme number of females who apparently have been raped in the Castle. It has gotten to the point where I have been confronted with someone who was raped, threatened by rape or threatens to rape someone... EVERY SINGLE DAY this whole last week. To the point that it is being shouted out about in the public areas. In my opinion, this is outrageous and unacceptable. I do not come to Marrach to be confronted by this. I come to role play. I come to enjoy myself and not deal with some of the harsher realities of this world.

I am not telling people not to have rape in their background. I am -asking- them to role play that aspect of their character responsibly and to think before you act. There are a host actions and reactions. Punzel is an excellent example of how to role play this sort of trauma responsibly.

Also, while this may be a game, there are rules and laws. Just like Philo said, when you punch an officer in the face in the real world, you get arrested. The same reasoning applies here. When Cerebus threatens to rape someone, he should be put in chains, thrown in the dungeon and/or, at the very least, be questioned, by the Watch. A character who has been raped in her past should -not- run around shouting about how they were once raped and thus should kill Cerebus for threatening it.

I am also bringing this topic up because there is a high number of female players in this game. Chances are, some of them have been raped. Chances are, they don't want to role play dealing with someone else's rape trauma. Chances are, if you are loudly proclaiming to have been raped or loudly threatening to rape someone ICly, you are making a few of the players behind the characters very uncomfortable.

I ask you all to think about this very carefully. To remember that there are real people behind the characters. Real people who have been hurt in their past and don't want to deal with that sort of hurt in their game. In all honesty, I am one of those people and I know I'm not alone.

Thank you for your consideration and for listening.
Jennifer

[ChristopherA]

Jennifer,

I want you to know that I take your concern very seriously.

One of the whole reasons behind the consent system was to prevent the abuses that I've seen in other games.

I do need to get some clarification, which you (and others) should feel free to post here or to email me privately.

My assumption from your post is not that there is any actual player vs. player abuse in the game itself, but that people are claiming to have been raped at some point off-scene in the game, or claim to have seen such an act off-scene, or claim to have rape as some significant part of their past. If there has been more then this, then that is a serious failure on our part.

If these claims are the essense of the problem, do you feel that it can be solved through education (an article on the website, more discussion about it on the boards), or culturally in the castle though some form of in-character mechanism?

Is there anything else we can do?

-- Christopher Allen
President & CEO
ChristopherA@skotos.net

[Seidl]

Well, today there were some IC threats that are working toward another duel, and getting the watch involved. I think in any midevil setting you will get some of this, but I do admit that its starting to get excessive. When I tried to get Petris to kill me, it was a big thing. But I think PCs need to be carefull of making threats. I know at least a few characters IC who wouldn't stop to ask questions, and would see how well the death code worked right there and then.

-=- Matt aka. Martel

[Lobo]

As being one of main people working on peoples memories, I've heard some of the instances where rape was a major part of the memory. Just so everyone is aware, I HAVE and WILL NEVER lead anyone's memory to this or any other type of abuse, be you male or female. Granted, in some situations it can make for a powerful background, but it should be KEPT to backgrounds if allowed at all.

Jen is right that this is a topic that really shouldn't be brought into this arena. Were here to have fun, and this has a very big chance of bothering people now and in the future, both male and female.

I recommend a house rule that everyone should drop this for the time being. There are a lot more plot devices out there and its not really worth the trouble to bring this up.

[Atama]

I have run into a couple of Guests who had rape as part of their background, from both sides (both as giver and receiver). These were things that Zero learned in confidence, and in both cases they are a source of incredible shame, where it was deserved in one case, and not deserved in another (as it often is in real life). I have had too many female friends (and girlfriends) in real life who have suffered from this, and I know that realistically, this is how one handles it.

I am in favor of avoiding the subject altogether, or if it must be used, keep it in one's private memories, known only to a few. I don't see it as something appropriate for regular RP.

[skitten]

Christopher,

Thank you to all of Skotos for your quick attention to this matter. I (and others) very much appreciate it.

For clarification: I have heard of only one character falsely accusing another character of rape to her then beloved. However, I am assuming that this was just part of the character's manipulating style. Fortunately, the whole situation has blown over and that part of the 'trauma' was never revealed publically. All in all, the rape trauma has occurred in the characters' lives.

As for what to do about this, I am not certain. Marrach has a large variety of players from different walks of life and gaming experience. I am certain the mental pain being caused is not on purpose. It is more of a blind thought of "Wouldn't this really be traumatic to have happened?" so that there is an emotional response to the character when this trauma is discovered.

Perhaps education on intense role playing. Especially in an adult setting. I'll have to admit, I have the urge to drag out one of my "Save, Sane and Consensual" lectures and teach my hint, tricks and tips to whomever would listen.

In any case, I appreciate the time and attention being shown by Skotos as a whole and by the playership of Castle Marrach.

Thank you.
Jennifer

[Kimberly]

I found it very interesting that Jennifer raised this issue in the forums, only a few days after I had been discussing the same concern with another player in email:

Do you (as I do) find it disturbing that everyone in the castle so cavalierly refers to rape all the time? It seems like about 2/3 or more of the women's memories involve rape, and most of them mention it like they're talking about going to the grocery store. "Oh, and then I was gang raped, and then ..." I find it actually pretty annoying, because being raped had a massive effect on Punzel (though I hadn't originally thought that when I created the character, it just sort of popped up in a scene with Lobo where he tried to pin her down on the bed and tickle her, and it seemed to explain her reasons for being in disguise and some other stuff), and these other characters/players treat it all so lightly.

I went on to discuss how it bothered me OOC, as well, for it's ramifications in real life society, but that I had been trying not to think about that very much, because ... as Jennifer said ... it opens a whole can of worms. I'm going to try to focus on behavior in the game ... my vague ideas about what's happening, why it's happening, and how it might be changed.

I think that treating rape lightly, even in a game environment, is irresponsible. If a character is going to use rape as an element of a character's past, he/she should think seriously about how the character would respond. Would she (excuse my use of the feminine pronoun for simplicity's sake) really just talk about it matter-of-factly in a group of strangers? Or would she run out of the room when rape was mentioned? Would she use the word "rape" easily, or would it be difficult? If players try to be more sensitive to how their character would truly respond, then I think they would also be less likely to behave in ways that might make other players uncomfortable.

Also, I think players need to be aware that they make not only IC choices, but OOC ones as well. We need to remain aware of the other real people sitting at all those other keyboards. If what I'm doing is fun for me and wonderfully appropriate for my character, but likely to hurt another player's feelings or make them uncomfortable ... it's probably not a good OOC choice, even if it seems like a good IC one. Of course we can't always know what is likely to hurt someone else, but we can use some common sense and compassion.

I think that an article on the Skotos website about mature and responsible role-playing might be useful, but I'm not certain, because I'm quite new to role-playing, myself. I'm not sure how to fix a problem that seems to stem from players wanting to give their characters interesting pasts, and wanting to distribute that information quickly to help develop and identify their characters.

I think that making rape a taboo topic in the game is not really a good solution, even though I have been very much bothered by some of the role-playing around the issue. For one thing, Skotos can't actually control what people say in the game. I'm not sure what the right answer is. But I'm interested to hear what other female players think, since I believe that all other responses on this topic have been from male players.

This is a difficult issue, and I don't know what the answers are, but there's my two cents.

Kimberly

[JeffCrook]

It's an internet thing, I think. Back in my chat room days, I encountered this same attitude and obsession. It seemed that wherever you went, whoever you talked to, their lives had been destroyed by rape. Either there is some sort of strange statistical quirk going on here, or it is just something people say to try to give some real emotional juice to an otherwise uninteresting background. I am talking about a fictional background, either when people are IC, or when they are trying to portray themselves as something they are not.

As a fiction writer, there are things that you can use to evoke an emotional response in a reader. Suicide is one, rape is another; there are many others. For most people, what is the most memorable scene in Deliverance? For me, it is the table scene at the end, but for just about everyone else, it's Ned's famous pig scene. Rape and suicide, when handled well in a fictional environment, can twist you into all kinds of emotional knots. Unfortunately, most beginning writers and roleplayers know this, but they forget about the 'handled well' qualifier. All they know is that it evokes an emotional response which few people will dare to challenge, and so it is used and overused to such an extent that it diminishes the importance of the issue.

So for all ye merry roleplayers out there who want to evoke your fellow players, there are other life experiences that you can use that, if they do not evoke universal and unquestioned sympathy, are just as good or even better. This is a fantasy setting, so let the fantasy carry you away. Rather than having been raped, why not say that your character's soul was stolen and her body held in thrall by an evil sorcerer? Or that you were kidnapped by a dragon, then escaped only to be captured by slavers. Maybe you were marooned on an island for five years and had to live in a cave on a cliff to avoid the nightly attacks of ghouls (Roger E. Moore story plot).

So, I don't think people are doing this out of some lack of appreciation for the feelings of others. I think rape is so overused because it is such an easy plot device to employ.

[myalia]

In case I have personally offended anyone (and I can see that I certainly may have), I feel a strong need to reply to this post, even though I'm not sure exactly what I want to say. So please excuse me while I ramble a bit.

When I created Myalia, she wasn't supposed to hang around. I had a broken character who couldn't issue an ASSIST command, so I created Myalia just to do that. I didn't want her to change anything in the castle at all, so my quick answer was to make her mute. Almost immediately upon logging in, she met a few people and I instantly found out that playing a mute character was pretty cool. I didn't know about Dolfin yet, and thought my idea was original. So she stuck around.

Then I had to come up with a reason she was mute. Obviously a very, very dark life. I thought of the worst imaginable life and I gave it to her. And some of those of you who have heard the details were shocked, which was good, because it is a shocking story. Also, at the time, I'd never heard of anybody else using this subject matter in-game and again I thought I'd had an original idea. Obviously, not.

In RP'ing this person, I've shared her story with her closest friends, never listing it like a grocery list, but always trying to RP the sadness and hopelessness behind it. And it's a subject I've treated with as much sincerity and seriousness as I could.

But still, it is a topic which is far too dark for me. So I would like to say this: I'm dropping it now. It got a bit out of hand, and things got a bit too serious. I wasn't the worst offender, by a long shot, but I was an offender. And if you know me IRL, you know that the last thing I ever want to do is offend people.

So, while I think that the subject is appropriate to a certain small degree in a setting like this if it's handled properly, I would like to join the other people who have posted here in saying let's tone that facet of our society down a little. There's enough hate in the real world to go around playing with it somewhere else.

[Twulf]

Holy cow! What a posting...I'm very little in the way of words while IC, but as far as this posting goes, here's my $.02. If it was a background and you knew you were going to tell people of this issue that you have while IC, then clearly, you should have known that rumors tend to spread like wildfire in the castle and that people may try to take advantage of the situation. As other people have duely noted, this subject is definately a touchy one. I do not wish this to happen to ANYONE either IC or OOC simply for the fact that there are lasting scars that may never heal. To anyone that has had this happen IC or OOC, my heart goes out to you. For those who it hasn't happened to, may you avoid it at all costs.

A concerned citizen,
Twulf
(aka Ken)

[JeffCrook]

Originally posted by myalia:
There's enough hate in the real world to go around playing with it somewhere else.


And there is plenty of fantasy hate that is much more fun to play.

[Aeriale]

I must hang out with the wrong people, cuz, I haven't heard a thing about rape in this game. However, one thing:
Aeriale's main memory is of her daughter. She's not sure the girl is her daughter, but I am. She also has a vague memory of another child, a boy, perhaps her son. However, try as she might, she can remember no husband. That was the way I wanted it, and, lucky me, the memory they handed me when I created her (toward the end . . . ?) fit in perfectly (except I only wanted one child). However, no husband for me - well, I didn't even think of rape. I think perhaps she had a child out of wedlock, willingly, although that doesn't fit with her morals. So maybe I was thinking of her - selling services, to be polite - because of great need. Or something. I haven't decided. But, basically, I guess I just wanted to show that there are other things to do. You would think, no father, a daughter, rape. But, other things are playable. That's what I wanted to say.
Niki

[Lobo]

Ya know, I've been thinking of just how amazing the players here are. No where eles, not on EQ, not on UO, nor most of the time in RL would RPs talking about stuff like IC relationships and sexual assult. I realize this is a little off topic, but I just have to say I think the people around here are the best role players bar none! http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif

[Retribution_AtWork]

You know, I figure since my character tends to be one of those "Player" type characters, I should talk about this myself. One of the interesting things about my character is his last memory, it is, in exact wording:

"she struggles, tries to scream, but your hands are strong and your knife sharp. The thin cloth of her dress is no barrier; the soft flesh beneath is very warm."

Now this to me, seems like it is most likely rape, but, I have never mentioned this IC, why? My character likes the ladies, and more important, he likes being liked/disliked. If people thought him to be a rapist, it would label him, and probably get him into a lot of trouble. So, I keep it in his background, which, it may never seap up to the serface.

This is how I believe Rape should be RPed. If your character has been Raped, whether before the castle, or during the castle, it should probably be a closely guarded secret, for both parties. Its not something you go and announce to the room, and probably shouldn't be mentioned at all. Find another plot device, whether it be a rivalry with another person (Hetchel stole the Onion, I swear!), or a desire to do something, or something else.

Anyways, I believe that was just a bunch of rambleings, but I believe that from a character standpoint, rape should be left out. True it might have happened, but its not going to be something that you talk about to just about anyone. Well, thats Retribution's Rant.

Signed,
Retribution, menace of the castle.

[Darren Brimhall]

Actually, I was going to ask a question on consentual sex, (no, I'm not going to impose upon Cassandra--not for some time and only with her permission. Peroid!)but this question is one that begs for a responce from me.
Rape as a factor in charater developement is almost nil unless it's properly used and acted out. Any character can use it, it'll make a great stumbling block to true romance especially for any female character due to the fact that can she truely trust this gentleman to be what he is or will she suffer another, degrading attack upon herself?
Rape can also be used to elist a responce from a charater--especially if that charater comes upon such a occurance in progress. Taking such protective action was something I was going to ask about how it can be performed in a combat fashion ( as in can we type P in stead of typing Punch, and so on)because I can definatly tell you that Jayland will pounce on the rapist--doublely so if it's Cassandra being raped.
Maybe, in that case, he'll break a arm or two.
And it's funny, where are the Guardsmen when these occurances occur. Jayland notices them stationed a regular intervals all around the castle, unless the rapist is very adept at subduing the victim quickly, silently, he'd figure them to be on the scean dealing with the criminal with in moments.
Why aren't they more attentive?

Darren Brimhall

[Monkey]

I would like to repeat Kimberly's request that we hear more women's voices than men's voices on this topic.

I have told a few folks this, but I used to do volunteer work for a rape crisis intervention center. One thing I have noticed during my years there, is that because rape is such a difficult issue, non-survivors find it much easier to talk about than survivors do. In mixed groups, the non-survivors talk about their feelings while the survivors try to work up the courage to talk about theirs. Often, they never get around to it because they don't feel like it is a safe place to do so.

I understand that many of you feel protective of those folks who have survived rape, but sometimes the best thing to do is remain silent, and just listen.

[skitten]

Originally posted by Darren Brimhall:
Actually, I was going to ask a question on consentual sex, (no, I'm not going to impose upon Cassandra--not for some time and only with her permission. Peroid!)but this question is one that begs for a responce from me.
Rape as a factor in charater developement is almost nil unless it's properly used and acted out. Any character can use it, it'll make a great stumbling block to true romance especially for any female character due to the fact that can she truely trust this gentleman to be what he is or will she suffer another, degrading attack upon herself?

I must admit, I am really surprised at just how callous and cavalier you are about this topic. Rape is -not- something to be taken lightly as character development. Frankly, I'm finding myself almost speechless in disbelief when I reread your post. "Make great stumbling block" to a romance? Are you kidding? Having two men compete for the same woman is a good stumbling block. Being shy is a good stumbling block. Getting a head wound and forgetting everything is a good stumbling block. Having a character's world shattered, her protection, trust and esteem ripped away while laying her open and vulnerable to the world is -not- just a 'stumbling block.'

Originally posted by Darren Brimhall:
Rape can also be used to elist a responce from a charater--especially if that charater comes upon such a occurance in progress. Taking such protective action was something I was going to ask about how it can be performed in a combat fashion ( as in can we type P in stead of typing Punch, and so on)because I can definatly tell you that Jayland will pounce on the rapist--doublely so if it's Cassandra being raped.
Maybe, in that case, he'll break a arm or two.


If you want to play hero, fine. Play hero. There are many, many ways of being a hero that do not involve a character being raped. It's fine and dandy that you want to beat up a rapist but that won't really help the character who is suffering.

Originally posted by Darren Brimhall:
And it's funny, where are the Guardsmen when these occurances occur. Jayland notices them stationed a regular intervals all around the castle, unless the rapist is very adept at subduing the victim quickly, silently, he'd figure them to be on the scean dealing with the criminal with in moments.
Why aren't they more attentive?

Darren Brimhall


As a final point... all of the encounters of rape mentioned in game (except one and that was heresay) have occurred in the characters past lives. I stated that above. Perhaps rereading the previous posts for clarity would help you formulate a more informed opinion.

The Watch has been doing an excellent job protecting the Castle guests to the best of their ability during this Beta Test cycle. Also, the ones who are not PCs are bots and the programmers can do only so much with an AI in a free form roleplaying environment.

Thanks,
Jennifer

[ldydais]

My turn. I'm a woman and I have had my own experience with this particular subject.

This is one of the reasons Erin retired early the other night. Player got a headache from this and another issue (the hitting).

To avoid any repetition of what has already been said, I'll just simply state my opinion. If one choses to use this subject, or any other kind of trauma for that matter, I think the player should not only think about what they want to do, but also, do some research on it. It helps the player to better understand the trauma and it helps them to play it out better, even if at sometime later the character has a development.

KUDOS to SKOTOS for their very quick response to this issue. It is very much appreciated.

[Darren Brimhall]

I was hoping not to be cavelier about this, we've gotten enought of that with George W. Bush.
In a post involving the Consent System, I've admitted that my post here was dreadfully written. And this is true.
As for playing the hero, Jayland will, if he's in the area, attack a rapist or break-up a fight in progress. Having witnessed 'incidents' in the past (in the real world--with one almost occuring at a intersection last friday night between two drivers)I'm more inclined than ever to 'step in' to end it either physically or by calling the police.
And, above all else, I really should have read the original post more closely before jumping in. It would saved us all alot of grief if I had. I apologize.

Darren brimhall

[LadySilverwolf]

First, my hats off to Skotos to their quick attention to the matter.

Second, I had avoided this topic completely because it is an extremely touchy topic and for many women, it is something that may have touched their lives in one way or another, be it a friend, loved one or someone they knew has has a tramatic experience down this particular road.

Thirdly, I tend to agree that this particular issue needs to be worked out between characters before a scene is played out. Remember, we have months of gaming time to work details out for a plot.

Now I am not saying this was a good idea. What I am saying is think out your background carefully. I tend to agree that there are other tramas a character can have besides rape.

Aeriale, your ideas are wonderful background ideas for a character to use. In all my gaming experience, I have had only one character that had any rape in her histroy, and never once did I use it ICly. Why, because as skitten pointed out, it is a very tramatic thing for a woman to deal with.

Myalia's Player... you have done a wonderful job RPing. I hope that you continue to use this character as she is an interesting character. Considering the scene of Thurday Night, I do believe that you worked some of the details out with SH. Perhaps an interesting twist will come about from the Duel that is to come about from this.

I do believe that this has been an, uhm, learning experience for all involved. I hope to see us work past this both OOCly as well as ICly.

Another two cents for a woman.

[KathyN]

Hi, just wanted to respond to this issue. Alot has already been said that doesn't need repeating. I was actually unaware that several players had chosen to include rape in their background info until it was posted. One of my charactors met Cerebus and was'nt afraid of him, as he was quite polite to her. The other one was present at the big confrontation that resolved the matter more or less.
I sort of think what is happening with some players is that they're exploring feelings on how they'd deal with rape. The men who want to be protective, the women who want to fight back or seek justice. (Let's all remember that men can be subjected to rape as well, even if it isn't as often heard about.) Even Cerebus's player (who I hope has another charactor going) had the opportunity to deal with the feelings of being a rapist. One of the things I find interesting that roleplaying does for us all is to give us a safe place to play out all the different sides of our selves; the good and bad, Light and Shadow. So...keeping in mind that we are first of all wanting to have fun, I hope that we can continue to explore the 'what if's' even if some of them are pretty scary. This is a fairy tale world...and I mean the original gruesome tales that contrast great beauty with horrible ugliness and bravery with treachery, etc.
Play fair!
Kathy

[skitten]

Because this is a relevant topic again.

[KathyN]

I've obviously changed my mind on this subject, mostly because I havn't seen the subject treated in a responsible manner. Maybe I'm just sick and tired of the same old 'I'm so upset because ser Rapist is walking the halls terrorizing me' line.
Tired of false accusations. Tired of 'woman as victim/liar/bitch sex object'.
Sorry
Kathy N

[Hannah]

Well, here we are over a year later with the same worries/complaints/ concerns, and where has it gone? Not very far I'm afraid, which it really sad. I withheld comment when the topic was new, but seeing it again, makes it difficult to ignore again.

Hannah recently became a rememberer, and she's been more than happy to to help out giving sessions. The other night she offered to do a session with a ser, who I will not name, and I could see very quickly he had a rapist background. Hannah tried to steer him away from the memories and on to something more pleasant, with little luck. That’s here I, as the player, stepped in. I asked him if there was a way that we could kinda skip the whole rape memory and look for something else in his past. Much to my surprise, I was told it was his memory and had no right to try and change it. I tried to think of what I could do..or even say in defense, but I decided it wasn't worth my time. So I pulled Hannah from the scene and the character is quite annoyed with Hannah..but, life goes on and all that jazz..

This does bring up an issue with me though..what happened to the ability to drop ooc in a scene and discuss what is going on and people really listening to concerns of player on the other ends of the screen? Do our newer RPer's really lack so much in the department of feelings and morals that they will plow right over someone in favor of plot development..or worse, pure selfishness?

I miss the players that were open to the idea that not everyone was comfortable with all situations and were willing to adjust and even understand things like feelings. Lately it seems more and more people are only looking out for what’s best for their characters and I'm bothered by that, you need to stop and think a bit before you drag your memories to a rememberer and dump them on the character. You also need to think about who your going to involve in these memories and maybe even ask them if they are okay with it :eek: Oh my.. what a concept!!

I'll admit, I may have been spoiled RPing with the duelists, who, as they yell and bite heads off are sending messages to each other making sure the player knows it just IC and there are no hard feelings and offering basic support. Though I truly believe that is a part of responsible RP. I recall not to long ago sitting in the cupola with Dariel and Vaden and dropping OOC for nearly 2 hours talking about a plot situation and how it was affecting people.Things like that, to me are good (and a great reason to have the welcome room).

I guess it all boils down to the fact that this is cooperative story telling... if your not going to comply with the basics how will there be any story to tell.


Holly

[Medb]

I'm always astonished that people try to roleplay rape trauma without a clue about what it really means. I'm even more horrified and disgusted to find out that there are male characters with the act of rape as part of their background.

For those who do such: What in the world makes you think that that sort of thing will be accepted by other roleplayers? Are we just here to fulfill your twisted fantasies? NO! This is -cooperative- role playing, not disturbed wish fulfillment hour.

I have seen a great many talented roleplayers in game. I have also seen a few ham handed lackwits that shouldn't have access to a keyboard.

I think I've figured out the pattern- people use their free month, then come back in with a free month on another account. That might explain why it seems that some of the newlies (not very many) over the past few days are set on destroying the atmosphere.

I can't speak for others as to why rape is worse to roleplay than death threats, but as for myself: I live with the awareness it can happen. I have had friends and family get raped, by strangers, by people they trusted, by in one horrible instance a family member. I have worked in rape counseling. I live as a woman with the knowledge that rape is a possibilty of -everyday life-.

I live in the suburbs, in a small town in the Southeast US. THere is no one uttering death threats and trying to kill me. But rape is unbiquitous and unpredicatable. I have to watch where I am at all times. I don't walk alone downtown at night. I look in my car before I unlock it, etc.

I'm not paranoid, just aware of my surroundings. But every time I check my backseat before unlocking my car at midnight I am confronted with the thought 'What if someone was back there? What would I do?'

So rape is something that hits home for me, because I am a target, like any other woman anywhere. I have seen the sad aftermath, of beautiful young women who are convinced that they 'deserved' for a man to follow them home from their mall job and assault them. I have seen the self-hate, the self-harm, the deep and abiding shame. *And I cannot begin to imagine how much worse those feelings for the person who has experienced it*

So to people who have considered using the background of being a rapist, think. Would you want your mother. your sister, your wife or girlfriend to know that you have that as mere character bullet point? Would you feel comfortable telling your female friends 'Yes, I have a character that was a rapist. I chose for that to be part of him, because I thought it would be a challenge.'

If you can honestly say yes, then I suggest you try it. Tell your mom that is what your character has done, the character you made up. Tell your sister 'Yes, I thought it would be interesting to roleplay the emotions of a man who used sex as a way to debase a woman.'

And I thought that the 'faux rape' plots from female characters were bad.

Dorinda

[John]

I hate to have to make an answer here but, but feel I have to. As some of you know I have table toped and larp'ed many many times. And in some of these games I have played a charicter who whould rape, or a rape event somewhere in the history. Often this charicter was made based on a direct request of the storyteller becouse it is known that I can a)Play the charicter well and b) play the charicter carefully. With any of the more emotinaly loaded consepts the player must keep in mind that other chartiers and players may have problems with the topic in general. However that does not mean that the topic should never be delt with in a RP aspect. I have to aggree that with the fact so few of us actally know each other in this game that you should not touch a rape plot unless you and all the people to be involved are ok with it. (So feel out the remeberer... make sure the people who will definetly learn of the past and such have a heads up ect.. even go as far as take to a SG if you think the backround/idea has any thing you havent thought of.

I think in closeing the idea I am trying to get accross is this (and feel free to disagree of conter this coment, tho I would prefer limited PM's if any) In any RP world there may be a reason to bring in the worst aspects.. let it be rape, murder, torture, slow death, war..ect keep in mind that these can be done well, but also keep in mind that some people will want nothing to do with them, and do not involve them if they dont want to be involved..

[Dunam]

Just on a sidenote- I think the many newlie's are in fact coming from KEENSPOT, where I also came from. Keenspot are all different comics, now all sponsored by skotos. The problem with a large flow of many new people is that they support beliefs that were previously not generally accepted. This keeps it alive and will eventually take over the previous society.

If there's only 1 new person in a big community, (s)he will eventually adapt. If then another comes this will continue. It's only when there's a sudden 10% increase for example, when people need not adapt, because there are plenty like them.

[Medb]

If the notions of some of the current newlies become prevalent, then I will migrate. I didn't come to this game for a text based singles chat room/gank fest.

And no, that is not directed at Dunam. I haven't played with you very much, but you seem to be a fairly nice, well brought up ser :)

In response to Johnathan: If you play a pen and paper or LARP, and everyone is ok with the notion of rape as a plot point, then that's a different beastie. Like someone here said before, that is when you can break out the Dixie cups of doom. What I'm talking is the plot element springing in on people who don't want to deal with it, which considered the cast of Marrach is going to be at least one person at any given time.

:)

Dorinda

[Dunam]

Personally I think the inner bailey would be the perfect solution to that eventually. If people are only allowed in there sparingly, all vets would have a definite better chance to do so quickly (given better knowledge of courtesy). Then the inner bailey will be the place where you are free of "tasteless" rp-ing. By no means do I mean all new players are tasteless, just a higher % (I think if I would have come around now I would have more difficulty adjusting).

Well that's just my thought.

[Umichan]

Moving older players to the IB will not fix the problem, Dunam. What we are talking about here is the fact that some people decide to use rape for their character background or a plot of some sort. They are literally forcing their plot to people who don't necessarily want to be part of this.

The trends seems to be that those same people don't take the time to ask what people around them think about them using such a touchy subject as rape. Even worse, they only seem to use it to be the central point of attention without wanting to realise that, by doing so, they are most likely hurting or making a lot of us behind the keyboard feel extrememly uncomfortable.

In my eyes, that is not only bad roleplaying. It also shows a flagrant lack of respect.

Gaby

[Davog]

And adding to Gaby's post, it does not fix the problem because if you change the makeup of the OB, and it becomes predominantly *tasteless* as it were, then you drive away the players you want to encourage, because that is all they will see.

I had noticed quite a lot of newlies of late. I guess I've been fortunate in that all the ones my characters have run into have been quite polite (bloody amazing really as I've helped around 8 newlies in the last week, and none of my chars are Awakeners).

But I think it is necessary for players to learn consideration for others. The whole point of Marrach was that this game was about consensual RPing. If that is to be thrown out for the selfish desires of a few, then the game will die, or at least mutate beyond recognition. If these people want that sort of game, I'm sure there are hundreds around that will satisfy them.

If a plot is thrown at you that you don't want to be involved in (and everyone has some tender spots), then talk oocly with the other player. If they ignore your concerns, then just walk away, and don't RP it with them (may not be very IC, but sometimes you have to do it). If they try and force it on you, then talk to an SG.

Paul

[Jorja]

I hate to have to post here, but I would have to say that this rape issuse is more than background. I was drug into a rape story in which a female character accused another male character, (more than one in fact), of rape. Might I add that this was to the discontent of the male character because he was not even told...let alone did he use his character to committ such an act. This is consentual? This makes me sick. I am angry that I could get dragged into something that makes me sick. I have had my own personal experiences and opinions about rape, and am more than angered that a character could be allowed to continue such. Not only this, but the same player after talking to me, and accusing this person of rape, then created a character to sexually accost me. What can be done about this?
Erin, Jorja's player

[Mintle]

Originally posted by Jorja
What can be done about this?

Originally posted by Davog
If a plot is thrown at you that you don't want to be involved in (and everyone has some tender spots), then talk oocly with the other player. If they ignore your concerns, then just walk away, and don't RP it with them (may not be very IC, but sometimes you have to do it). If they try and force it on you, then talk to an SG.
Paul
Peer pressure -- it's effective, and we, as a community, can agree to use it constructively. One being that players have the right to confront one other OOC in a constructive way, to steer away from IC plot threads that disturb us.

If we give ourselves, and each other, the right to stand up for ourselves, I'm sure we can get through this without a lot of name-calling and wounding in the community.

On the other hand, has there really been anyone on the opposing view-point, who's spoken up? Look at the peole who are on your side about this, and go RP with them.

How many times have you had to OOC roleplay around someone who goes AFK or LD on you? Just roleplay around an attempt to drag you into something you don't want to play in.

[Sorcha]

Jorja penned: I have had my own personal experiences and opinions about rape, and am more than angered that a character could be allowed to continue such. Not only this, but the same player after talking to me, and accusing this person of rape, then created a character to sexually accost me. What can be done about this?

Regarding an unagreed upon attempt of any kind, whether punching, kissing, kicking, stroking, pinching, licking, spitting, rape or whatever, I mention only this: CM *is* consentual .

You will note: NPC's do not have this problem.

Consent Deny. Simple, really. Or, you could just leave. Or, refuse to play, file an assist, involve another player, ignore it entirely, report the offender, ICly deal with it. Bow out gracefully. Deliver a swift and merciless kick in an appropriate place (and then sneer sadistically). The power each have over the situation is endless. Need I remind, we are *not* victims here. Not unless we allow ourselves to be, and that is another matter entirely.

How can this ever be an issue ? Certainly not because anyone feels they have a *duty* to RP something uncomfortable in order not to break character? Again, consentual. Again, a game.

Holly noted...I asked him if there was a way that we could kinda skip the whole rape memory and look for something else in his past.

I may be reading it entirely wrong, but this seems an *appeal* of sorts. I don't have to tell you that the kind of predator who preys unwittingly certainly is not going to acquiesce to a subtle appeal, do I? Which is why I think posts like this (In general--not yours, Holly) don't accomplish much. After all, who is going to post a dissenting view as to why they feel they *should* be allowed to thrust their fantasies unwittingly on another in what is, after all, a consentual RPG? And who is going to cease and desist just because the majority disagrees?

...and finished with: I tried to think of what I could do..or even say in defense, but I decided it wasn't worth my time.

Thankfully you left, and hopefully we will all remember this most important point: That we are *never* obligated to defend a decision in any situation that makes us uncomfortable.

It strikes me as a pervasive and horrid cultural mindset that insists that as women we feel we must be, if not accommodating, then at the very least *nice* in spite of our obviously uncomfortable feelings against the situation.

I am of the opinion that even debating this gives this thing *way* too much power to the 'perpetrators', if you will. As if we are at the IC mercy of any person, male, female, advanced players, newlies, etc. who would put us in a situation we find personally offensive, and we must OOCly (meaning this post) appeal to their-- what? Sense of decency (which evidentally they do not possess)? Propriety (ditto)? Reason (It isn't their brains doing the thinking here)?

And further...is there anyone who would actually come against another for refusing to RP any uncomfortable situation? I think not.

As Americans, we tend to like to talk through difficult issues a lot, and there is certainly no harm of that. But. A subtle and necessary reminder: Most sexual crimes are acts of power and *not* sexuality. A rapist seeks to humilate and overpower a woman in the most degrading way possible. Really, not altogether that different when players choose to thrust their (insert specified perversion here) upon you without your consent, is it?

That is why, IMNSHO, this whole discussion provides even more empowerment to the offenders than it takes away by *requesting* that these issues not be RP'd. Request be damned. If someone is going to impose their twisted fantasies on you, trust me, they aren't going to read this board and decide to play nice guy just because you ask them to.

And on that note...

Mintle added: If we give ourselves, and each other, the right to stand up for ourselves, I'm sure we can get through this without a lot of name-calling and wounding in the community.

It's called personal empowerment, and no one is going to hand it over nicely wrapped up in a silk ribbon. And no, you don't really want to hear me rant about the cultural prejudices influencing women in our society anyway, but I will add this:

Tired of 'woman as victim/liar/bitch sex object'.

You could probably guess as much, but quite frankly and specifically with regards to *ever* finding onesself in this situation (since it seems primarily women who are the subjects of this particular issue and need the gentle reminder most), I am of the NSH opinion that we could all personally use just a little more Bitch.

[Dunam]

NSH?


anyway, great post Sorcha!

[Mayakovsky]

I need an opinion from any of you...

My character has been in love three times. The first was raped and died due to complications of it (internal bleeding, etc.) He does not remember it currently, but it can very well come out...

...or I can change the story completely. As you may or may not have noticed, he has gotten very angry at the conduct of the Alfinngor character to the point of voicing his hatred on the board (btw, that character is bloody creepy). He has also become frightened that he may hurt certain characters because he fears that the previous occurrence may happen again. It's basically gentlemanliness with a horrible psychological spin.

Is this a good plot or venturing into unwanted territory? If so, I can whip up something else and forget about it. I'm doing this for two reasons. Primarily, it's because I respect the feelings of my fellow cast members, as you are in this case, and consequently because I wish to disprove that the new RPers are altogether inconsiderate. Please don't generalise about us newlies.

I look forward to your input. I hope not to drop to OOC in game, so I'll avoid that by asking you first.

Thanks,

Mike!

[Mintle]

My $.02, I say leave it in... and don't ever mention it. ESPECIALLY if he doesn't remember the specifics. Just leave the knowledge in your own head as a strong driving force behind your character's convictions.

People may think he's touchy, has a short-fuse, overly-protective... and they don't ever need to know why. But every one of those 'quirks' makes him stand out, and that's really what a successful character in marrach does: stand out.

I noticed something about the Harry Potter movie: because it's a children's tale, everything gets explained, and everything is easily understandable. But that's not how life is. We don't know WHY someone does something. A lot of people don't even care why.

Actions drive most stories for adults. They are stories about choices or sacrifices made, opposition faced, trials overcome. Because we're adults, we don't need everything wrapped up in pretty little explanations.

Oh, and a man with a secret is one of the most attractive things around.;)

[Teria]

Ok first,
I understand what you're saying here Jennifer but know this:
You do not know what all women are like and what they would do. OOC- I've been there. and IC- one of my alts WAS raped in Marrach. and OOC- that was a part of the story. It happened, it was only a part of a GAME and OOC- It did not affect me at all. OOC- You may not feel Angry and You may hide and avoid feelings and talk on the subject, I am not you. you are not me.

Second,
The consent system works if you play this game like you would mario. You play to win and use any cheats you can get your hand on. Myself? I play as it WOULD be. My characters are weak women without much ability to protect themselves. I use the Consent allow all comand and rp accordingly. When my alt was raped He attacked her at first and after I made a show that my char struggled but (in all actuality ) was NOT STRONG enough to fight him off. Make sense?

Third,
Anyone has a right to play how they will. right? have fun! no offense just difference of opinion.

[Santlar]

Originally posted by Teria
Third,
Anyone has a right to play how they will. right? have fun! no offense just difference of opinion.

Bingo! And when you or anyone else runs into the courtyard and yells rape, and everyone ignores you, do realize that "anyone has a right to play how they will."

And when the watch members don't arrest the person, because the players behind the watch characters don't support rape plots, realize then too that "anyone has a right to play how they will."

[Medb]

Anyone has a right to play how they will. right? have fun! no offense just difference of opinion.

Obviously we have a difference of opinion. I see nothing whatsoever fun about creating rape plots. I fail to see where it is appropriate for the age group in the game. I will break my characterization to bloody SMITHEREENS before I allow my character to contribute to a plot like that.

And I find it very hard not to take offense, although I am trying very hard, at your assumption that we are wrong to think that the issue has no place in this game. OOCly it may affect other people, may break open old wounds that you don't even know about, nor from the tone of your post do you care.

Dorinda

[Dariel]

Teria, basically, you're right. I play Dariel full-tilt, with no holds barred. He's made people (characters) cry with but a few well-placed words. I certainly reserve the right not to bend my character if not absolutely necessary.

However, if you touch people's ooc feelings, things get complicated. Generally, and leaning onto Kant's Imperative to induce a suggestion, I try to abide by the following:

You're free to play your character any which way you want to unless you impinge on another's freedom to play the way they want to.

Now, if people have strong feelings about rape, and the mention of it let's them go up in tiny mushroom clouds, do you think you're not actively interfering with those other people's enjoyment?


Have a nice day.

[Ageelia]

Because of recent events (more than just one), I'm bumping this and encouraging those who haven't read it to read it, and those that have, to read it again.

- Age

[Ryot]

Don't you just love it when information that is incorrect is OOCly spread? I know I do.

[John]

Originally posted by Ryot
Don't you just love it when information that is incorrect is OOCly spread? I know I do.
on this note, please keep the details of IG events IG, right or wrong. (not to you ryot, just adding to your words..)

[KathyN]

Read this again. People try to justify rape plots by saying 'Well if you don't like it ignore it.'

I can't ignore it... I play the Corporal of the Winter Watch.

And I hate being forced into this.

Kathy N :mad:

[Rikka]

simply put: rape is a touchy issue true enough, but if one char consents to the plot, then its a icly issue and should be handled icly, consequences and all.. Icly.


Thank you and Goodnight

~Jenny~

[Carrie!]

I totally disagree.

You need the total consent of both the characters for plots like this. You can't perform and shouldn't have the right to perform a rape plot without mutual consent.

If there is a problem with a rape plot gone wrong, the victim's player has every right to bring it up with a StoryGuide. Some things aren't meant to be kept within the kettle of IC popcorn.

[Rikka]

hmm its late and I'm sleepy and my brain isn't functioning right so I'll reword it.

what I meant by one is the one that the plot was approached by the other person... ser x approaches sera y, she consents. thats what I meant.

I also agree it shouldn't be forced on the person, BUT if both consent to it, then it should be dealt with ICLY.

~Jenny~

[Briseis]

While I am sorry you had to deal with this, Kathy, when you join the Watch, you have to expect things like this would happen. After all, we are the police force of the Outer Bailey. However, just like the rememberers, you aren't without options. You can delegate. You have Armsmen. You can pass the case on to the chancery (did I remember the right department)?

I work with rape victims and their families on a volunteer basis and it upsets me a lot. Sometimes, I come home totally drained. I am glad I don't do it during my school year, I wouldn't be able to concentrate!

I couldn't deal with the case we are dealing with now ig. I would hand it off to someone else. And in your case, there are others who you can hand it off to. Even though it might not be super proper for you to do so, we don't want to force you to go through something like that if you don't /want/ to, but NEITHER do we want something dismissed out of hand just because you don't want to deal with it.

I hope you realize that my disagreement with you this evening is not with you. I have no problems with you. In fact, I like you :) My issues are with how you and your character have decided to deal with this issue, because I believe your decision is based on your ooc feelings.

That's it.

PS - rape plots suck.

[Dariel]

I'm not even going to bother typing this out again.

Originally posted by Dariel
[...] if you touch people's ooc feelings, things get complicated. Generally, and leaning onto Kant's Imperative to induce a suggestion, I try to abide by the following:

You're free to play your character any which way you want to unless you impinge on another's freedom to play the way they want to.

Now, if people have strong feelings about rape, and the mention of it let's them go up in tiny mushroom clouds, do you think you're not actively interfering with those other people's enjoyment?

Think about it. You all have sore spots. For some it's rape, for others it's the US government and for a third it might be the holocaus. I'm sure a lot of people would cry bloody murder if all people born with knowledge of Eastern would be singled out and summarily gassed. But hey, it's just OOC, so you gotta run with the plan, right?


Go choke yourself.

[britta]

I want to give my own cents into this issue....Look...this is a fantasy roleplay game..alot of people wish to fantasize about the life they led before they entered the castle...And some of our memories equal (gasp) rape. Look lets not play the who is wounded how bad game..I am sure that any female playing gets to be in that wonderful club of molestation and rape that happens to the majority of us between 7-18. Ok its called a fantasy world...get over it.

Some players are trying to come up with a story line..some of them include rape...you know what? If for some reason this imaginary *rape* *fondling* * molestation* bothers you? Then I have a few suggestions for you..try a game where reality is distanced..let me sugest oregon trail or a good lemonade stand..because hello? read the news? Picking a female character...means that historically men have been sniffing under your skirts.

Listen, I would like to see a female in our audience who has had as violent, and vicious sexual force history as me ( email me indicajane@users.forums.net)

The bottom line is..memory of rape in past...is ok...it freaking happened? and i think a rape storyline between consentual adults can be up there with our many wounded (ever have a painful wounding? why not complain about the contstant bandages?) or the deaths that go un noticed? I mean, everyone has been hurt by DEATH..and far worse then any RAPE..and yet people are allowed to die..be reawakened and life goes on?

I have not only been a party to a violent rape/molestation..but i know of many..I am a Juvenile Deliquency major..and they all stem back to who is messing with who..I know stories that would curl your hide..and comparing them to a text medivial game is trivial..read teh majority of your pulp novels..rape was the corner stone..avoiding..a powerful hero sweeping into save the day..

Lets not attempt to make this game so pc that it cannot handle actual events of this time period...Yes, there are drama queens..But say I wanted to have a Rape Plot with Britta (which I have never..but just say) be damned if someone is to say that *I* don't know enough about it..i may have to kick thier ass.

[Ageelia]

Some people play this game as a fun outlet to AVOID what crap has gone on in their lives.

Why someone wants to bring something like rape into a GAME makes no sense to me... Why do you want to RP something like that? Its glorified into something where the girl gets a bunch of sympathy and attention.

... and that's not how it works.

[Namida]

Its glorified into something where the girl gets a bunch of sympathy and attention.

I disagree on this. Rape in game (or any other sexual assault) doesn't get glorified in the game.
It is still something that hurts and is terrible...

One thing that this raping IG might help with, would be people who has tried to be assaulted R/L and am using the game as a way to find out, if it is safe to talk about. Theese positive reactions IG might give them the courage to do something about it R/L.

On a psycological level, this game is wonderful for trying your boundaries, exploring a part of your personality and to work with yourself in a psycological and spiritual way.

I myself is a victem, a surviver. If I don't like a sexual scene, I don't complain OOC'ly about it, but instead react to it IC.

I think the same should be done IG.
If you (and your char) doesn't understand rape or doesn't like to be to close to it, then let your char react to it. Let it run away crying or screaming or whatever is fit.

Rape happens, death happens, assault happens, both R/L and IG. We need to learn to deal with it, not complain about it OOC.

If Ky and Gab had agreed on the story and consented to what should happen in that scene, then they are two addult humans, who answer for their own actions.

It is proberly not like they have RP'ed the whole rape-scene. It might as well be, that they have sat in a room somewhere, chatting ooc'ly, and after some time, Gab comes running out with tears down her cheek. (I know most about this OOC'ly and barely anything IC, so I don't know what excactly happened.)

So, rape can be a good thing IG as to forward a plot of somekind. Think of what disfavour and sympathy it will bring... Think of who might go talk to Gab now, who hasn't done that much before and so on. It can be a great and interesting adding to a plot, if it is well thought of...

well - my five øre.

Pia

[uberthorns]

When a player consents to a plot or even becomes indirectly involved with out giving express consent to said plot, whether it be S*-supported or player-run, there are no bounds imposed on that player strong enough to actually force the player to continue the plot to its "end". The player(s) behind the plot's story hold no authority over the other involved players (read: they are not standing behind you, holding a gun to your head, forcing you to think and to type). A player can become disinterested with a plot and wish to step away from it, detaching their character for their own reasons which may or may not need justification (I personally would not take kindly to having my reasoning questioned, and would only justify my motives if I were pulling out of a plot that 1.) was substantially affecting other characters around me, 2.) was originally something I had started on my own; then it would only be courteous to let the other players know I don't want to continue, or 3.) required the attention or facilitation of the CM staff). This situation is far from ideal in that the plot can often be left hanging with little or no IC resolution; however, the players have that right because Castle Marrach is a game we all play in order to have fun and to entertain ourselves. I don't ever remember reading anything in the Terms of Service that designated how a player is required to play a plot to its end after a certain amount of involvement, regardless if the player is "happy" or not. No, it's not exactly right (in many cases) to simply drop a plot while in the middle of things, especially when there is no IC interaction leading towards some form of a conclusion -- but the world isn't fair and neither is an e-Castle based in a role-playing game.

So, with that, I wonder about rape plots. If a player can pull their character out of a plot -- this concept is universal and unconditional as the power of personal choice overrides so much -- for reasons they will never be forced to give, why the hell don't they? Why doesn't that player assert him/herself and say, "I don't want to continue with this plot any longer," if that's what they truly want? Do they think they are some how obligated to become deeply involved in a plot if it is merely posed to their character? They shouldn't, because this game is about you just as much as it is about the characters being played opposite you. What I don't understand is how a player will consciously continue with a plot (any plot, not just rape plots) when they're less than happy with it. You have options: you are not being forced. What are the options? Try to maneuver the plot into going in another direction -- simply because the players behind the plot have a certain conceptualised outcome doesn't mean that outcome is guaranteed (this, boys and girls, is called conflict). "But my character is being over-powered by a bigger character!" you whine. So what? It's an enchanted Castle and your character is living there after being brought back from the dead. Things aren't exactly 100% realistic on Mt Ardan. So you have your imagination and your creativity just as much as the imposing players do; essentially, the plot can be yours just as much as it is theirs.

Plots and the people who run them are not absolute. If they can spawn a plot, so can you. In fact, you could create a plot to destroy a completely different plot. "That's fucking obvious Jessifur, 'cuz people do that all the time," you note. You have just made my point: if a plot threatens to involve a character and the player doesn't "want in", they don't have to. If the player does "want in", they have that option as well. They also have the option of creating conflict. But why, if a player has such an issue with the "questionable morality" of a rape plot, would they NOT assert him/herself as they would in any other plot in which they did not wish involvement? Why would the player of sera Penelope (example) continue with a plot in which her character is raped (stereotypical scenario as seen by the Castle, as the majority of the victims have been women right?) when she objects to the story and feels less than comfortable doing so, OOC? Why create a fuss afterwards instead of raising her voice to say, "Hey, I'm not cool with this so we will have to take things in another direction or forget my involvement entirely"? The player of ser Manfred (another example), Manfred being the character attempting the rape, can not honestly claim to hold jurisdiction over sera Penelope's player; though, this is not necessarily true when applied IC. Sera Penelope's player owes it to herself -- since it is she who is responsible for her own entertainment -- to be assertive, and to proactively seek IC-situations in which she enjoys role-playing. She also owes it to herself to SPEAK UP. If the player didn't want involvement in that kind of plot, the player should say so because the opposite players usually can't read minds. ... Usually.

Corporal Judith's and the Watch's involvement in plots like this (or, if in an example rape plot, other groups of denizens who may be affected or pulled in for involvement) is the only thing I would consider as a grey area between the black and white. Judith, or the Watchmembers/Armspeople she assigns to a case where rape is in question, doesn't have the same, clearly defined OOC options as those posed to the primary players in the plot. The only way of getting through something like this, if it is considered difficult, is to do exactly as Judith has done in slightly similar circumstances: maintain an unyielding barrier between OOC and IC emotions and don't perpetuate the situation through personal opinion. "Deliver justice" and move along, I guess.



In short:
No one can force you to do anything, and this includes your involvement in RPG plots. You can choose not to continue.
... Or atleast that's the way things are supposed to be.



"I can't just leave a plot my character has become involved in!" you digress. Yes, you can, but that's another thread topic addressing self-assertion and players having enough backbone to illustrate it.

[Destini477]

I simply refuse to have anything to do with any rape plots. I work in Law enforcement and have seen to many times the affect it has on not only the victim but those in the victims life. Rape is not pretty, should not be glorifed or even rp here in my opinon. I have no idea why anyone would want to rp this, for it is a most tramatic event in a person's life and never leaves them.
It was mentioned to Des the other day that someone was *sexaully forced upon* ...........I reacted a bit , but did not pursue it and I will not. It does not belong here in CM, just my feelings....
Karen

[Ageelia]

Amen, amen, amen and AMEN.

[Gareth]

I don't know why this plot began, and it's not my idea of a 'fun' plot. Yet it seems to me to be dramatically 'valid' even if highly disturbing.

I respect people's personal choices to not become involved.

What I do worry about is that people are trying to repress this topic so deeply, they are burying the crime. Someone said they would disbelieve this ever happened ICly!

(wince)

That's the terrible truth sometimes IRL. The perpetrator denies it occurred. The community, not wanting to hear the horrible truth, represses it.

Suddenly, the victim character was the 'woman who cried rape,' and the arresting officer is accused of wrongfully imprisoning the suspect. Suspect's word against the victim's.

If there is no justice meted out, that makes the victim doubly victimized, and the perpetrator possibly gets away without repercussions.

Yes, I respect people who do not want to get involved for whatever personal reasons they so choose. It is a terribly wrenching subject.

Yet shall we take a plot and 'absolve' it by whitewashing or burying it or saying 'it was all a dream?' As if there was no crime at all. I'd find that far more unsettling.

-Pete.

[Rikka]

not trying to play devil's advocate but here goes:

What about death? Near death experiences, death of a loved one heck even a death of a pet... thats tramatic, you can recover from a rape and and live your life to (or almost) normal. Folks you can't reover from death thats the factt of life....A tramatic fact. it DOES effect people deeply mentally, emotionally and physically. Yet..thats pretty much the basics of the castle, you DIED to get here and was brought back. People die all the time in this game and yet they come back to life all the time. But as well known irl that ain't happening.

If someone was to beaten to the brink of death oh yeah, that would be tramatizing.. do you think they would want to play a game where in some memories thats actually put in there? You see when someone dies in the castle (and that does happen quite a lot) that people are morning...even though its a temporary death, It would effect that person because they have to go through oh sera x died oh goodness no! But then 8 hrs later.. they're right back alive. That person realize.. i didn't have it like that and I don't have a 'necromancer' to bring me back.. I almost died.. stuff like that can bring memories.

I'm not condoning (sp) rape. I think its a horrible and terrible and disgusting thing to happen to ANYONE. But people are making it seem like its the worse thing that can happen to the person. Even though its pretty darn close, I think death beats out on that one. Yes there was a rape plot, it was tasteless true enough, but no one is screaming bloody murder (no pun intended) for death which runs rampant through out these text based walls.

thoughtfully yours

~Jenny~

[FrellingFrell]

Well Said, Pete.

Now, I hate discussing rape just as much as the next person... I've discussed the reason for this with a few people online, but it's not something I like to broadcast. However, THINGS LIKE THIS NEED TO BE DRUDGED UP so that if they are approached again sometime in the future, it will be approached as maturely as possible.
But, I digress...

Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. And why one person would even think of bringing it up to the table blows my mind. True that Life is unfair and there are things characters can do IC'ly to squash this investigation. But what are you teaching people? Especially those new to the community of CM'rs. That it's okay to bring in sick and twisted fantasies IG and get away with it without an IG consequence simply because it's something nobody wants to deal with IG?

True, this game is consent based... but you forget that also with consent, integrity of RP is an aspect that some characters choose to play with. I as a player really didn't want to deal with this at all, but IG, it is Frell's job to investigate into this. He swore an oath to Uphold the Capitulary, and no matter how utterly abhorrent the task or the crime.

I do understand people's reasoning for not wanting to be part of this. But for gods sake, we deal with murder better than we deal with rape here! What do we do IG to people that commit murder? Send them to the Chancery and get them beheaded. I think that because we have so many different OOC reasons as to stay away from it, we forget that 'IT DID HAPPEN IG AND SHOULD BE DEALT WITH IG.'

Before I finish up, I would like to pose to you these questions... some are repeats, some are integrations of thoughts within some others' posts.

If we forget everything that has happened to this point, and do a *do-over*,

~What have you learned through experience?

~What do you teach others by ignoring this aspect of society, simply because it makes you feel uncomfortable?

~Is silence a good remedy for issues that are hard to discuss?

In conclusion... The Character in question has to be punished for what the Character did InGame. No more, no less. And instead of being passed off just because it's not 'fun', the character should face punishment for his actions(i.e. beheading). As for OOC punishments, there's nothing we can do except seethe and hate the fact that they would do pull something like this IG. What we can't do is say, *this isn't fun, so I'm going to pretend it never happened*

[uberthorns]

As I hear more and more about this (sign onto AIM and five IMs start flashing: "CAN YOU BELIEVE ..." *twitch*), I keep wondering one, single thing.

Why, if one of the players felt uncomfortable, was nothing said during the scene?

i.e. Why was it allowed to continue?

You didn't want to offend or inconvenience the other player?

You didn't want to be labeled as a "POOR ROLE-PLAYER!!"?

You didn't want to make waves?



There are certain plots that just do not work in Castle Marrach; rape plots being one of them. Hell, this isn't due to some S* delegated decision on the issue, because there isn't one yet, is there? It's the player-community that, by receiving rape plots with such adamantly intolerant attention, has turned the idea of "rape plots" into such a monster. By even considering the start of a rape plot -- for whatever reason IC -- you are committing a grave faux pas. A faux pas as defined by the voice of the masses and not necessarily by the Powers that Be.

Why people even try to establish "rape plots" in Castle Marrach the game is beyond me. When they're met only with this kind of attention, you'd think it would be some sort of negative reinforcement to AVOID this noise and simply not do it.

It'll happen again though. People will be offended again (not to say this isn't for good reason), and this thread will be revived again.

[FrellingFrell]

Jenny, I think that many people miss the point that some of us are trying to say.

It did happen IC... and should be dealt with IC'ly. Not ignored IC'ly just because someone wants to distance themselves OOC'ly away from it.

~John

[Elysium]

Jenny,


I think the difference on how a rape plot and a death plot affect a person oocly is that even though in real life death is a very traumatic thing, rape is a violation of ones body and mind. Of course it’s going to bring up different emotions in the community then death will.

Add the fact that while death realistically is very traumatizing to people, in the castle death means very little. Someone dies and eight hours later (barring SP intervention) they are back and almost as good as new.

Obviously this is and always will be an issue. Perhaps before starting plots like this people should skim over this thread so they’ll know what repercussions there may be.

Ely's player

[Haika]

I am only posting this to support some of what has allready been said. And like Pete said, I don't want to totally ignore it and make things worse.

But just like Ageelia, Dariel, and others have said, this effects others. Alot more than a death that passes within a day. Sure you can roleplay that its serious, and I have, but rape is more than that.

In my eyes, the characters involved will never be the same. Both oocly, and icly. I'm sorry, but theres nothing I can do, I feel strongly, and will never forget.

Icly, my characters will barely speak about it. And its hard not to just lash out, even when I know thats not what my characters would do.

I would just like to support elysium there also, if you do something like this, expect it to change things oocly and icly with some people.

-Jason
(seriously upset, and not very proud of Marrach right now)

[Zviad]

Ahem.

Do you object to theatre performances involving rape?

If yes, you are a censor monkey. Stop reading this post and go stick your head in a mason jar.
If no, then what is the problem?

If the plot was consented by all involved, who cares? Maybe rape plots should be obliged to a more explicit statement of consent.

So you prefer not to play in them. Answer? Don't participate in one.

Bah.

Mike.

[Kyramor]

My thoughts.

http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20684

[Gareth]

I'm hoping I'm not inflaming sensibilities, but providing pause for thought. There are also shades of 'rape,' from seduction without violence all the way to brutal murder. Is it all purely anathema?

It's especially important to me. I'm going to have to deal with all this in Pendragon Online from day one.

Why? The Arthurian legends were BORN out of a seduction-rape plot. Uther Pendragon was changed in form by Merlin to seduce and sleep with another man's wife, Dame Igraine. The child of that union was King Arthur. Yes. The King and his Wizard conspired to kill one of his most powerful subjects to bed his wife, and then used enchantment to cover it all up so the wife didn't know. Pleasant, eh?

The victim found out she had been duped, but her husband was dead. She was forced to marry the king. In a way, she even grew to love him. Then he was poisoned and died. Happy family stories that Disney left out of the "Sword in the Stone".

Merlin's mother too, was 'seduced' -- taken against her will -- by a spirit that came into her room even though she locked the door and prayed to God she would be spared. Was it a faerie lover or a devil? Pagans and Christians will debate that for centuries.

King Arthur kills the giant of Mont St. Michel, who was a rapist, murderer and cannibal. When King Arthur caught him, he was roasting a dozen newborn children on spits, and had recently killed a Duchess after forcing himself on her.

The crux of the matter is: do I excise the legend to whitewash it for sensitive audiences?

These are the original stories, and I'm going to stick with them. Just as it is. It's damn riveting, even if it's disturbing.

Let's take Sir Breunis sans Pite as a dramatic and known example of an Arthurian villain. His name means roughly the Brown Knight without Pity. He was a murderer of knights, and a raper of women. That's why he was a horrible, shocking and unapologetic villain.

Let us imagine he was introduced into Pendragon Online.

Would I ever inflict Breunis on a character who was not consenting? NEVER!

Would it ever be fully RPed out? NEVER!

Would I 'tone it down' such that Breunis didn't ever rape a woman, but only... twirled his mustache and laughed menacingly? Took it from horrific tragedy to merely melodrama? .... possibly.

Indeed, I did.

In Castle Marrach, I introduced the character, but never went through with his full level of evilness when I saw how the community dealt with the subject. He did commit an assault, a kidnapping and torture, but he never went further than that. He never became a murderer, and virtue was left intact, though he had ample opportunity and motive.

But think about it. He is supposed to be a villain. Merely laughing evilly does not make him dramatically effective.

"Silence of the Lambs" had terrible crimes and brutalized victims. It was disturbing. It was effective. No, many people do not want to live in a world with "Silence of the Lambs" characters wandering around all over the place. Yes, there are many tawdry dramas that might use the crime badly that can make you wince and feel ill and just want "out."

Even men are made sexual victims in the Arthurian legends.

Lancelot is seduced by magic by Elaine of Carbonek, and begets Galahad on her. He feels so violated upon awakening he almost slays her, but departs in disgust from her presence. He was not 'physically' forced (he thought he was making love to Guenever -- adultery and immoral in itself), but he felt horridly betrayed and used.

In another tale, a woman accuses her own brother of raping her. Though he is innocent, he is torn apart by dogs. Later, the father discovers the truth of the matter and has his daugher put to death as well.

These torrid stories happen in the Arthurian legends no more nor no less than they occur in other classic literature. Shakespeare's works Titus Andronicus and the Rape of Lucretia, were based on classic Greek and Roman tales. Titus Andronicus is especially brutal. There are also Biblical stories, such as the incestuous rape of Tamar.

It all goes back to the moral resolution of the plot. Do society's laws and values get upheld and close the story with grim but just resolution?

Shakespeare ends the Rape of Lucretia thusly:

"And so to publish Tarquin's foul offence:
Which being done with speedy diligence,
The Romans plausibly did give consent
To Tarquin's everlasting banishment."

-Pete.

[John]

In simple basic terms the questions come down to such. Did the 2 main people involved in the rape plot (presumeing there were 2) consent? Did they talk to a guard/watchperson ooc about dealing with it so it wasnt a surprise (this included feeling that person out, but not giving date/times. It also presumes they expected/suspected they would be caught.) If everyone involved is OOC ok with it, then it should be ok. Everyone has a diffrent idea about what a good/bad/lame/improper plot is. If you dont like rape plots then dont do them. For that matter if you are offended by the way people just up and get themselves killed in the game sometime, dont do it. If you are offended by people injuring themselves for the sympothy IG then dont do it.

If you noticed a trend, thats ok it was intended. In my view I dont think I would do a rape plot in this game with my charicters. But thats a personal feeling. Would I in other games with diffrent charicters? Yes.. if the story was there and it told well. I would of course have consent, and prob a GM/storyteller/DM's consent as well, but thats just for safeness.

[Ageelia]

If the plot was consented by all involved, who cares? Maybe rape plots should be obliged to a more explicit statement of consent.

So you prefer not to play in them. Answer? Don't participate in one.
I hear everyone saying 'If you don't like rape plots, don't take part in one'...

Well you know what? I wish it were that easy. I don't want to be involved in one, but there wasnt alot of choice when everywhere I took my character, people were talking about it, and there was nowhere else to go.

Leaving all my characters in their rooms because its not something I want to deal with is not fun. Avoiding the game completely is not fun. Rape plots for those whom dont want anything to do with them are not fun.

The fact of the matter is that a rape plot does not just involve the 2 characters involved in it. It affects everyone whom comes in contact with those characters and hears of it, or hears of it through other characters.

Tell me I'm close minded or overly sensitive if you want.

[John]

Originally posted by Ageelia
I hear everyone saying 'If you don't like rape plots, don't take part in one'...

Well you know what? I wish it were that easy. I don't want to be involved in one, but there wasnt alot of choice when everywhere I took my character, people were talking about it, and there was nowhere else to go.

Leaving all my characters in their rooms because its not something I want to deal with is not fun. Avoiding the game completely is not fun. Rape plots for those whom dont want anything to do with them are not fun.

The fact of the matter is that a rape plot does not just involve the 2 characters involved in it. It affects everyone whom comes in contact with those characters and hears of it, or hears of it through other characters.

Tell me I'm close minded or overly sensitive if you want.
your wish is my command, presumed I called you both. I would have to say, that if this topic were not so overplayed in the forums, you might hear a lot less about it IG. Personly I dont know why its something you hear about all the time. I know the when I am not looking for info on it, I dont hear about it at all IG. But if your charicter is offended, have you thought about asking people to change the topic? I know IG I have changed the topic in a conversation becouse IG I didnt want to hear about something. The problem I have is that since you dont like a certion kind of plot, other people cant have that kind of plot. Thats a little annoying. Also recall that if it ooc bothers you, you can also ask people ooc to not talk about it around you.

(precede to flame away any and all.)

[bluesunrisenor]

I scanned through this an I almost glad I am leaving I know that because of my past I would find this disturbing and prolly oocly attack anyone who forced this into my face. I am a statistic one of the few young boys who was molested or raped every year (I never really understood the difference.)

It has damaged my life and made me very touchy on subjects. I know this is a public community and for the most part people pay attention to whats going on and if they notice someone getting uncomfortable they try to adjust. I always did.

You know everyone has fetishes but if it touches a nerve this bad maybe players should avoid it.

Just my 2 cents
Ty

[psinix]

By:Britta
The bottom line is..memory of rape in past...is ok...it freaking happened? and i think a rape storyline between consentual adults can be up there with our many wounded (ever have a painful wounding? why not complain about the contstant bandages?) or the deaths that go un noticed? I mean, everyone has been hurt by DEATH..and far worse then any RAPE..and yet people are allowed to die..be reawakened and life goes on?

Thing of it is, by far, if given the choice I would have gladly gone with death.. (But life just isn't that grand now is it)

While I do understand it may become part of a plot for someone, I also can choose not to interact with this. Should this mean I need to go play another game, I think not. As Britta so egarly pointed out, this is a Game a fantisy one at that. Now, I do not know about all you, but I know one reason I play, is the escape the harshness of reality, to ease back for enjoyment, and to do the things I may not be able to do in real life.

Lets say that I had my character, Nixa, involved in a rape plot. I would play out the plot as if it happened or a past memory, but I do not see the pleasure or advance in plot to actually play out the scane

To me, it is quite disturbing that someone would want to actually play this out, especially when the person is AFK, and is not in knowledge that they are going to do so.

- In my mind it makes me wonder about that person in RL. Although, they may not actually do such a thing. It makes me think that somewhere in their mind this wish it to.

- Another thing I would say for all you females, whom actaully like to play it out. Ignorance is bliss, now isn't.



And that is really all I am going to say about that.

[Lance]

Ah, this is all overreacting to hot-button topics. Rape is hardly the 'worst' thing that can happen to you. By contrast, if there are worse things that can happen to you, you should be able to fill those things into previous statements, right?

"Why someone wants to bring something like (rape/murder/suicide/being smacked in the face by people with authority) into a GAME makes no sense to me... Why do you want to RP something like that?

(Rape/murder/being impaled by a sharp metal object in the stomach by a bad guy trying to beat people up) is not pretty, should not be glorifed or even rp here in my opinon. I have no idea why anyone would want to rp this, for it is a most tramatic event in a person's life and never leaves them.



As someone who was minding his own business but was cut up by a not-so-nice member of society, I can verify that it is not a 'pleasant experience'. At the same time, my character is profient with a sword. I've never been poisoned before, but I can imagine poisoning being rather unpleasant, slowly racking the life from you until the fatal moments... but my character was poisoned.

Essentially put, just because something is 'bad', or even 'very very bad', is hardly a reason to disclude it from interacting with RP. However, if something is 'very very bad to you, then you have a different story.

[Elysium]

If the plot was consented by all involved, who cares?

The problem this time is not "Was this consented to by all involved" it's more of a "Were all the consenting parties aware of the heat this would bring upon their characters?" and the apparent answer is no, considering the fact that already someone involved has tried to back out and say it didn't happen.

If you want to roleplay a rape plot, fine, but be prepared to roleplay it. Understand that even if there were no posts in the ooc forums about it, your character is likely to catch hell for it icly and make life misrable for the person who commited the assault.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across here is, if you're going to run a plot like this, be prepared for all of the roleplay that will come with it.

Ely's player

[Briseis]

I suppose in this topic, I am a bit of a hypocrit.

If someone wants to try and rape my character, and I can't adequately escape/roleplay out of it, I will log out. I am not letting that happen, simply because...I am not letting that happen to me/my character.

On the other hand, if both parties consent to the 'plot', then as a Watch Deputy and someday a Watchwoman, I have to deal with it because it is the job I took when I became one. I knowingly chose this path. And sure, I'll probably pass it off to someone who will handle it better.

Anyways, I've said it before..

I agree with Zviad. If two people want to roleplay a rape plot, let them.

I agree with Elysium. If two people want to roleplay a rape plot, be prepared for hell.

[Zviad]

Ely, if you are worried about IC repercussions, just make the penalty for rape a final death-type offence.

That should dissuade characters from entering those plots, and it's in the Capitulary, so no one can claim that they were ignorant to the fact.

'Ta.

[Briseis]

I'd go for it being a final death. totally.

[Kyramor]

Heh, as I've stated elsewhere, I knew how much heat I'd get, and I LOVE IC heat, it's fun to RP, but OOC is the part that I don't particularly like.

Just a note. :)

[Lance]

Ely, if you are worried about IC repercussions, just make the penalty for rape a final death-type offence.


This is a little unfair.

Check out every *other* crime there is. There are penalties for those (pretty severe, in many cases).


Are they ignored? Frequently.

Are they known? Common sense.. hitting people, rape, murder, theft; all bad.

Is 'justice' ever meted out? Rarely if ever.



Of course, my suspicion is that much of this has to do with OOC nonsense than IC 'kindness' by the law people, but that's another story. As it is now, you can do just about anything you want, and you can get around consent by being a crappy person.

Welcome to Marrach.



In short, it's not fair to say 'change the laws to change the populace'. We have people openly declaring treason every day, and they're free and running around. How blatant is that? In contrast, we have another criminal in jail for months at a time with no discernible evidence. Hmm.

[Rikka]

well in this particular case OOC action was taken place (someone brought in a sg) by a person that wasn't 'directly' by the two consenting ppl. Why should 'consequences' happen on a oocly level, if the whole thing was strickly IC?

[Rodeger]

I am going to say this as succinctly as possible: anyone who would be involved in a rape plot that is RPed is a sick, sick person.

In real life, death is much preferable to rape. Period. Death is preferable to involuntary incarceration. You get over death, but anything that injures the soul is unconscionable. And, I stress, I am referring to real life, not Marrach.

Rape is not something that should even be mentioned by anyone with any sense at all. The problem is, people who have not been close to anyone who has been through it have no idea just how bad it is. They say, "Time heals all wounds." BULLSHIT. The repercussions are lifelong, and the person raped never, ever, EVER really gets over it.

With that said, I must insist that anyone who is taking this purely IC matter OOC because of OOC reasons needs to be suspended from Marrach for a minimum of a week so they can think about IC-OOC crossover. Second offense should equal permanent banning.

I am sick and tired of IC-OOC crossover. If you people cannot play the game right, get the hell out.

-Steve

[John]

Originally posted by Rodeger
I am going to say this as succinctly as possible: anyone who would be involved in a rape plot that is RPed is a sick, sick person.

In real life, death is much preferable to rape. Period. Death is preferable to involuntary incarceration. You get over death, but anything that injures the soul is unconscionable. And, I stress, I am referring to real life, not Marrach.

Rape is not something that should even be mentioned by anyone with any sense at all. The problem is, people who have not been close to anyone who has been through it have no idea just how bad it is. They say, "Time heals all wounds." BULLSHIT. The repercussions are lifelong, and the person raped never, ever, EVER really gets over it.

With that said, I must insist that anyone who is taking this purely IC matter OOC because of OOC reasons needs to be suspended from Marrach for a minimum of a week so they can think about IC-OOC crossover. Second offense should equal permanent banning.

I am sick and tired of IC-OOC crossover. If you people cannot play the game right, get the hell out.

-Steve
a few small things to add, first off, while IRL rape is bad, there are a good number of people who RP mock rape and rape like situations as part of their sexual lifestyle. (All players consenting). They do not do this to offend or make light of it, but for personal reasons of their own, and do not need to be refered to as sick.
Secondly if you cant talk about rape, then it goes into hidding. Refusing to speak about it at all just makes the problem bigger in general.
And lastly, tho I happen to agree that IC/OOC crossover is bad, some of it happends. If people were banned for a second offence IC/OOC crossover we would be down to a handfull of players in a few days.

[Ageelia]

After reading over this again and again, I've come to a conclusion from my point of view.

I may highly disapprove of rape plots.
I may not understand the desire to bring something like that into a game.
I may be bothered with it on a number of levels.

But...

You might not disapprove of rape plots.
You may understand the desire to bring something like that into a game.
You may not be bothered with it on a number of levels.

And my saying that these things should not be done is me telling you how to roleplay.

... And that's wrong according to everyone.

So all I ask is that its not shoved in my face, and if I decide it's not something I want to deal with on an IC or OOC level, that that's respected.

I'll respect Your choice to do it, if you respect my choice to not be involved.

[Lance]

Thank you, Ageelia.

[Briseis]

-bump-

No offense, but if I have to give up a night of roleplay for yet another rape plot, I'm going to snap. It bothers me to hell, yet I have my IC responsibilities. I can't just say 'sorry, go report to someone else'. Nor would I want to burden someone else with this.

Can't you people think of another way to be tormented, without bringing up bad personal memories in other players?

-Stacey

[OOC: Imagine how much one's opinion changes in seven months of 2 rape plots a week, 98% poorly played]

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by Briseis
I can't just say 'sorry, go report to someone else'.
Why not? If it bothers you that much, just OOCly tell them to go elsewhere. You're not forced to role play something that sensitive if you're not comfortable with it.

[Evi]

I'm seriously sorry 'bout that. I would have preferred to chuck her in her room and avoid everyone, but I didn't expect the guy to throw her out in the hall and try to find help for her.. o.o
And to begin with I didn't even have ooc knowledge that was his plan.. I wouldn't have minded just being bashed up a bit like I thought he was gonna do.. bleck, oh well.. Sorry, sorry sorry sorry.. :( plus I tried to just get it over with quick afterwards, but I couldn't due to distractions of the oh so inevitable real world.. And Sorry again.

[Age]

Just a little note, not an attack on you at all Evi: each player has the right to RP as they wish to, and not RP what they don't. If you didn't want to be involved with that 'plot', all you needed to do was tell the other player so.

:) Everyone makes mistakes, or sometimes gets involved in situations they later wish they hadn't been... but the great thing about the CM community is how forgiving they generally are, and respectful of the wishes of their fellow RPers.

Good luck! :)

[Evi]

Indeed, I agree entirely, but I have a horrid weakness for unplanned RP(specially when it's decently rp'd by the other person), and for follow-through(Unlike the moments when someone picks a fight and vanishes before they get hit back, for instance.), but it was the mistake on my part for not getting her outta the hall sooner.. and then for forgetting to turn off follow and not thinking quicker. I do apologize. And that's all I can do. Sorry.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Evi
Indeed, I agree entirely, but I have a horrid weakness for unplanned RP(specially when it's decently rp'd by the other person)

Heh. I know your pain and your joy on that one. I have the same weakness. By some I've been praised for the fact that I practically never plan my RPing/plots. Other times, mostly by other people, I have been torn apart, basically.

It's a two-sided blade, but hey, two-sided blades rock. ;)

*cheers and wanders off*

[Briseis]

Steve: Because Briseis is a Watchwoman. I can't just have her ignore crimes...irresponsibility. It's one of those things - you know you have to deal with it when you swear that oath ig, it's like consent right there.

Evi - not angry at you, because as you said - you didn't know it was going that way. Evieve acted quite realistically. I appreciate that.

It's just the third one since this time last week ;)

[Gawyn]

OOC'ly stating "No thanks, I'm just gonna pretend it's raining," and IC'ly saying the same are two worldly different things.

Noone can IC'ly pounce on anyone for OOC'ly deciding they don't want a part of a plot, unless - of course - they have already stepped into it.

I mean; I can't go out and murder someone IC, then tell the guard that I don't want to be in the "put-Gawyn-in-jail" plot.

But I can say "No, I won't murder you, cause I don't feel like doing it, OOC'ly" OOC'ly, and noone can tell me I'm wrong.

Of course there are the subtle differences, but with a bit of common sense those shouldn't be too hard to detect.

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by Briseis
Steve: Because Briseis is a Watchwoman. I can't just have her ignore crimes...irresponsibility. It's one of those things - you know you have to deal with it when you swear that oath ig, it's like consent right there.
They can't hold it against you IC for something you are OOCly opting not to role play because of the sensitivity of the issue. And I'm sure rape is something people would let you slide on for OOC reasons.

If people try to hold it against you IC, then contact a StoryGuide immediately. Tell them it was an OOC decision not to get involved. And don't react to them IC if they criticize. Wait for the guide to handle it.

The game wouldn't be consensual if you were forced to role play things like rape, suicide and other highly sensitive things.

[John]

Originally posted by Steve-O
They can't hold it against you IC for something you are OOCly opting not to role play because of the sensitivity of the issue. And I'm sure rape is something people would let you slide on for OOC reasons.

If people try to hold it against you IC, then contact a StoryGuide immediately. Tell them it was an OOC decision not to get involved. And don't react to them IC if they criticize. Wait for the guide to handle it.

The game wouldn't be consensual if you were forced to role play things like rape, suicide and other highly sensitive things.
Actally, you would be amazed the flack I see the watch and guard (some others as well, but mostly these 2 groups) get for having real lives. Often its not an outright complant, but there will be snide comments about watchpeople, and how such and such is never around. Its often by people who dont know the ooc comment was made, and are fringly related to whatever crime the watchperson wanted to, or had to leave.
I think its in part, what leads to the burn out rate in them, and why we always start seeing a lot less of the older ones after a time.

[Tyr Gunn]

Originally posted by Steve-O
They can't hold it against you IC for something you are OOCly opting not to role play because of the sensitivity of the issue. And I'm sure rape is something people would let you slide on for OOC reasons.

If people try to hold it against you IC, then contact a StoryGuide immediately. Tell them it was an OOC decision not to get involved. And don't react to them IC if they criticize. Wait for the guide to handle it.

The game wouldn't be consensual if you were forced to role play things like rape, suicide and other highly sensitive things.

Steve,



Occasionally you remind me how young and naive you really are. This is one of those times.

Pull your head out of the sand, bud. It's a well known fact in this game that people cross over. It's an issue, and if you aren't aware of it, I think you should try spending a little more time IG, or in the very least, take a serious look at situation before saying something like "They can't hold it against you IC for something you are OOCly opting not to role play because of the sensitivity of the issue."

You're wrong here. They CAN and often DO. They, however, SHOUDLN'T.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you have never played a Watchperson, and that I think you should before you start telling them to opt out of a scene when they are the only person online and 50% of the player base(to be conservative) figures it's their job to deal with all these situations.

I've had this rant before, many times. And it's usually people who have never played a Watchperson sitting there trying to tell me how it is. Watchpeople get OOC as well as IC flak for not being online when someone blows a duckcall. OOC usually as, "WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU!?!?" And IC, usually as, "People have reported your lack of activity lately, care to explain."

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I often refused to participate in similar such things, except if choice was not mine. (IE: I walk into a scene where some guy is actually in the process of raping some chick, I'm not gonna say OOC, "Oh, sorry I don't like this kinda stuff." and walk away. Give me a break!)

There are some situations which are unavoidable while you're in that role and until you've played such a role for a long stretch of time ACTIVLY participating as a lawperson, you can't really say, "Just don't play it."

Edit: Correction to the above; (You shouldn't really say, "Just don't play it.")



*Puts on flame suit and gets ready for the inevitable.*

[Andy]

*points up*

And this, my friends, is why I believe Watchpeople should be played by people who are prepared for the flack they will get.

I also think that those who consider playing Watchpeople should consider these 'sensitive subjects' BEFORE becoming an officer of the law. It's a part of the job, it's going to come up. Sure, you can opt out OOC, but you aren't going to be able to avoid the issue completely.

As a side note, Gunn's right about this. There are a lot very small incidences of IC/OOC crossover which are basically impossible to prove. Thus, you must take them into account in your actions. For instance, I play a character who possesses a disguise cloak. Do I expect everyone to be absolutely clueless who is under it? No. People will look at every detail they can see (Even if they're standing across the courtyard with my back to them) and figure out who's under there. No, not everyone will use that information in an IC manner, but, those that will, I cannot prove that they would not know such information IC as well.

Yeah, I know, I've said this before.

Anyway, you all have your opinions, this just happens to be mine.

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by Tyr Gunn
Steve,

[rant]

Occasionally you remind me how young and naive you really are. This is one of those times.
The young and naive copout of an argument. Give me a break! I'm tired of all you holier-than-you shitholes who do nothing but retort with "You're so young and naive." You don't think I fucking know? You don't think I've fucking heard people complain about IC and OOC crossover and how about things are being held against them even though it's something they don't want to deal with on an OOC level? And when I ask them if they've talked to a StoryGuide, most of the time the answer is "no"? That would make you the ignorant one. Learn the difference between ignorant and naive.

It's a well known fact in this game that people cross over. It's an issue, and if you aren't aware of it, I think you should try spending a little more time IG ......

You're wrong here. They [b]CAN and often DO. They, however, SHOUDLN'T.
No shit. I'm aware people crossover. Why do you think I suggested that if anyone does hold it against her that she contact a StoryGuide immediately?

I've had this rant before, many times. And it's usually people who have never played a Watchperson sitting there trying to tell me how it is. Watchpeople get OOC as well as IC flak for not being online when someone blows a duckcall. OOC usually as, "WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU!?!?" And IC, usually as, "People have reported your lack of activity lately, care to explain."
Then explain OOC. I'm one of the people you seem to think don't exist who is on the opposite end of the spectrum. If you tell me OOC "because it was a rape plot and I am not comfortable with it," then I will nod and reply, "It's cool. Don't worry about it, then." If you're going to have an attitude of it's us versus them, then you'll likely never find out what happens when you ask a StoryGuide to back you up. HELL, it was a StoryGuide in the FIRST PLACE who told me it was well within a person's rights to just walk away if it bothered them that much.

[britta]

I never thought I'd be the one to say this. But jesus, everyone cool out? I have never been involved in a rape plot in two years, or even heard of one ic. I think people are being too sensitive about it anyways, good god, I personally have a much bigger issue with people dying constantly with the oh well, i'll be brought back to life. That offends me way worse then if someone had a rape plot.

I think there is probably a way to do one correctly and a way to do one incorrectly. But thats just me, as I stated before I have never been involved in one, I haven't seen a reason for it. But if it was presented to me in a well thought plot arc, I would also refuse to rule it out.

Rape plots are not against the TOS, if someone wants to run one, they would also have to accept the flac from the online community who as a whole has expressed displeasure with the idea. I think giving it this much attention, and it still being permissiable within the game world boundries is giving it way too much power...giving the opposite effect then I'm sure y'all want.

You have the right to step away from any plot you don't wish to participate in, but you also do not have the right to dictate what other people want to rp. There obviously ARE people who wish these plots, so bitching and moaning isn't going to change that.

The fact that Watchmembers are uncomfortable and unhappy that they are presented with this is pretty easy to solve...either say ooc, "sorry, not playing this' or contact an sg to handle it. *shrug* this doesn't seem to take rocket science, and it almost seems as its being dragged out as some sort of sensationalized topic. Which as I said, is giving it way more power then it deserves as a infrequent plot subject.

[Glyphe]

Actually, there's one thing that doesn't often get brought up IC... in Marrach, a character is consi