Tonights plot(s) (28th-29th)

[Boh]

I'm curious what people think about things that went on tonight.

I personally had my own troubles a character got eaten by a room heh, but had some fun giving out a little bit of info.

But to be honest I'm still a little dissapointed. I always want big neat changing things, and barely got much of anything tonight, other than a body and a howl, and a clue from a priest.

If its a matter of people not finding the right thing, a little railroading isn't such a bad thing. I was also a little dissapointed in that only those military or detective people were involved. I've seen far too many quests like these in CM, bad guy is barely seen but there are dark things happening a global emote here and there, a few good guys rally, they hit their heads against the wall a few times trying to find/stop bad guy/thing, then later the plot is resolved when the staff feels like it and most of the game dosen't even know anything happened. (And yes I know it's not over yet)

Just seems to me that it's not as good as it could have been. Maybe I'm just having a real bad week (very possible heh) and my outlook is biased.

What do others think?

[Death]

Comments are welcome and appreciated. Don't let my response prevent others from posting their opinions on the subject presented. These are valuable insights.

I merely wish to point out the SP Natalia delayed the event one night due to computer issues and the small hints the staff gave tonight are naught but teasers.

[Boh]

ahh, so that wasn't the big plot. That makes a whole lot more sense to me, heh.

I had a big 'THATS IT???' when I was told most people were going to bed. And knowning that the big thing that has been in the works, hasn't really started yet makes me feel so much better.

Hopefully things with Natalia will work themselves out and we can torture her once again. ;)

[EoDraco(IC)]

- Well where plots and such are fun unless you make them blazingly obvious who will see when they just barely struggling to trudge through the rest of the game. Yes watching the bear die was wonderfull RPing ( Well kinda ). I really didn't get interested in it at all. The one thing I have noticed in other games is you need to throw a NPC or two into the event to drop hints, or divert attention away, this NPC has to be there before it all starts.

- Concidering my trade is seconds from being a waste of time. I have sold 2 items the entire time I have been playing. So Income is Nada. I can not learn anymore in the craft even though I have enough points to learn the next two levels as well. Yes I could learn something Else but the first thing I picked is now impossible to find another teacher.

+ On a positive note, the new help files are nice, I hope they are not complete though.

+ Also some of the other players are wonderfull at filling my time with idle chatter !!

[Natalia]

I do have to apologise for having to pull out last night. Silly cat knocked my sprite over and it landed and gushed all over my parent's keyboard (I'm visiting them at the moment).

With that said, this is a multi-week plot. It doesn't just happen in ONE day. It just -started- to unfold last night.

I could make blaringly obvious plots, but then when they're done, what happens?

Also, keep in mind that certain aspects of this plot have been in play for weeks and weeks now, in preparation for this. :) A lot of planning is going on :)

[April]

Honestly, I believe last night was an excellent beginning for the plot. It left all of those involved thinking. A good plot isn't something that is easily figured out.

We also need to remember that this is alpha. There are a lot of things in the game still being worked on. The Plotters, Builders, Temps, and Coders are all working very hard and diligently to make things work. I think we all need to stop for a moment and remember that they do this on a volunteer basis and show a bit of appreciation.

My two cents for what it's worth.

[Boh]

Maybe what I want is the blaringly obvious. CM has soured me so much on secrets and plots that are subtle and only hinted at. ( I also want more happy plots, and I don't mean the good guys get the bad guy type happy. I just mean something to talk about that dosen't involve maiming, death, pain, darkness, shadows, etc )

When reading novels, I always think about why I loved Terry Goodkind's first sword of truth novel. "Wizards First Rule" I loved that book so much as soon as I was done, I turned back to page one, and started reading it again. That book was filled with big revelatons, and amazing twists. It had lore, magic, power, love and many other themes that switched things up every few chaptors.

I know this is probably a hard thing to move into online plots. Subtlty and secret happenings is fine, but eventually I want to know, and I want others to know, so we can talk about it OPENLY.

What I don't want is Character A knowing about plot 1, and character B knowing about another part of plot 1, but its so secret and not to be talked about that A and B sit in the courtyard bored out of their minds, instead of talking about what happened the other evening.

And I'm not so sure the 'multi-week' plot thing is a good idea. I can understand that you get more people when you do that but it also makes it harder to get all the pieces together.

One of the things I liked in CM was the initial idea of the chronicles, where the story would be fully investigated and posted for all to see. It may have worked before I joined CM, but after I kept only getting bits and pieces of a plot because the person writing them never got everything, or something was left out or they never got around to doing it.

My suggestion would be to get a npc printer/publisher guy with a printing press, so that a staff could post an update on running plots in an icly manner for people to read. I know this takes away something a player might be able to do and puts more work on the staff, but a plotter involved in the plot would know alot more about it, and could even give clues via that posting.

ok I'm going to stop now before I ramble into multiple pages heh

Ps: don't take all my nit pickyness as saying I don't like the game. I appreciate all the staff does, just free writing putting my thoughts on the forums for people to see and think about.

[Boh]

Originally posted by April

We also need to remember that this is alpha. There are a lot of things in the game still being worked on. The Plotters, Builders, Temps, and Coders are all working very hard and diligently to make things work. I think we all need to stop for a moment and remember that they do this on a volunteer basis and show a bit of appreciation.

Yep, this is Alpha, wich to me is all the more reason to talk about things and say what you like and what you don't like. So it can be changed or at least noted before Beta and then Gold.

And sorry if the volunteer comment falls flat on me. CM has been useing that as an excuse for a long time. I understand that the staff are volunteers, I don't need to be reminded of it constantly. They should still have a pride and enjoyment of doing what they do and work towards making players enjoy the game.

And don't get me wrong, with all of these suggestions and ideas, I don't mean that the staff should work 24-7 and hop to(though it would be nice *evil grin*), a simple 'we are working on it' is fine to me. I just want to feel welcome that I can post these sort of things. It got to be in CM that every time I posted people jumped on it like I was saying we should kill every third child in the US

[Natalia]

I understand your concerns, do not get me wrong. I have never been fond of plots that happen behind closed doors and in the hands of a few select secret-mongers.

That's not going to be the case this time.

What we have right now is the beginning of a storyline. I do apologise, but it will not blurt out the entire story all at once. This is a longer-running storyline.

Which one am I talking about? Well, you won't know. I can tell you that more than one plot announced itself last night.

[TonyD]

I appreciate the discussion.

April: We're all volunteers, thanks for reminding people of this. There is no obligation WHATSOEVER for our staff to make a fun game for the players. Everything they do. Every. Little. Bit. is entirely from their own generosity.
I greatly appreciate them, they do a wonderful job (and they really do work hard, I see them all backstage)

Boh: Having said that, I didn't feel any attacks whatsoever directed at me or the staff. There was merely a comment discussing what Boh did and didn't enjoy in the plot. There WAS a big lead up, and as Natalia said, we didn't manage to follow through as expected. Hopefully the rest of the plot will make up for it.

Eodraco: I'm not sure I understood what you meant about the bear? Did you mean that although it was fun RP, because you didn't feel there was staff involvement, and it wouldn't effect the ongoing world, that made it not be interesting to you?

I'd much rather players openly talked about what they do and don't enjoy, so we are aware, and can tailor plots.

I'd like to toss out some thoughts for discussion. These are entirely opinions, and are not necessarily correct (or even well thought out), and certainly don't represent game policy (I'm not even one of the plotters!)

Build up:
How should this be handled? What does posting "a plot starts at X time" mean? Does it mean that everyone should be online at that moment, expecting the "deadly attacker of deadly efficiency" to arrive? Or does it mean that the Deadly attacker of deadly efficiency arrives in the CITY at that moment, and starts interacting with players. A week later he starts attacking with deadly efficiency?

Ideally there shouldn't be any build up except in the game, but then less players are around to witness it.

If there is build up, then there's also the risk of (justifiable) dissapointment, such as in Boh's case.

Length of plots:
I entirely understand the frustration of "Nothing will happen until the staff decide the plot is over" - feels like it doesn't matter what your character does. To be honest, in this plot there was nothing that could have been done in the short term (to my knowledge - the plotters have more details than me). However. We are aware of what the players are doing. If the players band together, start protecting each other, the plot may play out differently. If they spread out, searching docktown, the plot may play out differently. If they ignore what's happening and go about their lives, etc.
- just because you don't see THEM doesn't mean THEY don't see you. And react accordingly.

What's a good solution for the "lenght of plot" problem?
Multiple one-night plots that string together into a big plot? (diplomat Snooty arrives in town, and gets insulted - plot 1) - (Deadly attacker of deadly efficiency arrives in town for revenge on behalf of diplomat Snooty - plot 2) - (The Don requests that three criminals are captured and given as slaves to appease Diplomat Snooty - plot 3)? So each "chunk" can be solved in one evening?

How do we involve more players? So they don't log in and think "well, that's over, then. I missed it. Again."

Or would some sort of "tally" system perhaps be better. Deadly attacker is there night one. Depending how the players react, he flees, but the staff records how much the players did to him... so it still drags out over weeks, but there is a definate benefit from the players actions at each point?

How do mysteries play out? We kind of need time for players to find the clues. Sometimes the clues will be out there, but the players don't realize. Hmm....

Happy plots:
Didn't Natalia's poll show people wanted mystery? Not that we can't have a happy mystery, of course. Death and darkness is a good "excuse" to get lots of players involved.

I like the idea of happy plots, nothing but dark plots can really get you down. Anyone got ideas on how to run a "good" happy plot? Plots like romances are hard to run as "plots" - usually they're something that happens between the players.
Plots like "a unicorn arrives and dispenses gifts" seems... uninspiring.

Perhaps plots like "Let's rebuild the burnt church"? Some sort of community spirit sort of thing? *shrug*

Wizards first rule: I loved that first book, too. Problem with that as a plot is it's a very solo-person sort of thing. Richard is the hero. The book is either his voyage of discovery, or his heroism. Or his love story. Hard to do on a large scale to involve all the players. Not that we mind small personal plots, but we can't offer them the same level of attention.

Characters talking to each other: I think, in general, we haven't discouraged characters from talking about the plots. Have we?

Printers:
What stops a player tacking a note up on the IC message board in the severed tail (just post to the forums with a title saying [IC]) with information so far, requesting anyone else who has information to also tack a note up?

[Natalia]

The sad news is that while I was supposed to return to my place, and my uninterrupted area of computer dominance, there's a huuuuuuuuge snowstorm here and I'm snowed in at my parent's place.

Still unavailable on a reliable basis. Sorry :/

[Tre]

Originally posted by Natalia
The sad news is that while I was supposed to return to my place, and my uninterrupted area of computer dominance, there's a huuuuuuuuge snowstorm here and I'm snowed in at my parent's place.

Still unavailable on a reliable basis. Sorry :/

OOOOhhhh Canada...

[EoDraco(IC)]

* I have to appologize My last post sounded like I was bitching. I was not trying to complain about anyone or thing. I was attempting to give some constructive critism.

+ As of so far I really like all that I have seen in Iron Claw. The Staff has never taken any longer than 5 minutes to answer a question. Which as to any other game I have played that Normaly takes an act of GOD. The staff also seems VERY exicted about what they are doing, which in turn makes me excited about it whan I hear them.

- I know not everything is gonna be done rite away, but playing it and enjoying the game makes me want to see more of it. Do more, See more, Make more. So if I get alittle cranky about waiting. It's not because any of the staff is slow it's because I'm excited to really get into the game already, So any of the Staff please take my pestering as a compliment to the game you are making.

[Ra'Dorcha]

Originally posted by TonyD Length of plots:
I entirely understand the frustration of "Nothing will happen until the staff decide the plot is over" - feels like it doesn't matter what your character does. To be honest, in this plot there was nothing that could have been done in the short term. While a completely scripted plot can make for a valid story, I tend to be the type that agrees that "this is a game." Which in part to me means that player actions should affect the future scenes and the storyline that is being told.

The example with diplomat Snooty would seem to me to be a good example of a plot with multiple scenes. Each scene would be a larger part of a single storyline. Perhaps if the various chunks were expanded more (he sends an assassin, then sends a wizard, then some monster) each chunk might seem a bit more like a smaller plot within a larger one?

Just some idle mussing.

[Ra'Dorcha]

Originally posted by Boh
My suggestion would be to get a npc printer/publisher guy with a printing press, so that a staff could post an update on running plots in an icly manner for people to read. I know this takes away something a player might be able to do and puts more work on the staff, but a plotter involved in the plot would know alot more about it, and could even give clues via that posting.
An interesting idea for some plots but I'm not sure it would work for every one.

Most especially,

a) this is a politicial game which means there will be plots which a house or two would want to remain something of a secret.

b) Not every plot is going to have a plotter involved in it. Some great plots could easily be player run and not need a plotter involved at all.

[TonyD]

Originally posted by Ra'Dorcha
While a completely scripted plot can make for a valid story, I tend to be the type that agrees that "this is a game." Which in part to me means that player actions should affect the future scenes and the storyline that is being told.

Of course. I meant that the players can't affect the plot in the short term in that they wouldn't find the culprit, and cut off his head.

That doesn't mean their actions aren't affecting the future scenes.
More importantly, to me, their actions should affect their relations and reactions with other characters. Do they try to spread the word of danger? Do they shelter in the light? Do they gather together and hunt? *that's* what's interesting to me.

Saying "You see a monster, roll attack" is less interesting, in my mind.

*shrug* but that's just my opinion. And I'm not "in the trenches" so to speak, so I may well be very wrong.

[TonyD]

Originally posted by Ra'Dorcha
b) Not every plot is going to have a plotter involved in it. Some great plots could easily be player run and not need a plotter involved at all.

Hopefully the BEST plots will be player run.
Hence why I encourage players to take the initiative when making newspapers etc.

The attitude of the team is "We'd rather give the players control" - hence systems like crafting. Instead of making a unique item, we'd rather add the item to the crafting system, and let YOU make it. And next time you need one, you can make that, too. Without staff help that time.