Issues with Skill mechanics

[Catharsis]

The trick for all of us it to RP the skill teaching and keep it all IC as possible.

I'm working with the Battlers on this and I suspect other groups are as well. It takes an hour to teach. Practices are two hours. If someone worthy enough is selected to be the "special pupil" for that practice, makes sense to teach them, and since it is a practice, it will remain IC for the most part.

How other guilds and groups will do this ... only time will tell.

Leah

[Seidl]

I will also add that instead of sitting about RPing in the dinning hall, you can sit about Ermengade's knees. Or Zia's knees or Martel's knees and learn the fire arts of whatever. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif For the first few days, I think there may be less RP as people learn the system. but trust me that CE knows about the issues and the teachers know about them.

-=- Matt

[John]

Um..a question...then teaching doesnt requier anything IC ,,just a command to start it up?...so you could learn the art of the duel while reading poetry...or craft skills while dueling?....i dont plan to..just curious..

[NewbieAdvocate]

Originally posted by Seidl:
I will also add that instead of sitting about RPing in the dinning hall, you can sit about Ermengade's knees. Or Zia's knees or Martel's knees and learn the fire arts of whatever. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif For the first few days, I think there may be less RP as people learn the system. but trust me that CE knows about the issues and the teachers know about them.

If they know about the issues, why did they set the game up this way?

For example, one of the big issues is the number of students a given instructor can have. Take the Battlers as an example. Let's say, for sake of argument, that Catharsis can teach 3 students. Let's say, now, that there are 8 students present. The RPing of the practices is going to be really damned hollow for five people present. They're taking part in the practice bouts. They're listening to the same lectures. They're taking up the same amount of their time. But they're not getting *ANY* in-game benefit from it.

"Ah!" you say. "But you forget that some of the people present may be able to teach."

This may be true, but they will likely be far less effective at it than Catharsis. Indeed, given the skills system as described, most people will suck at actually teaching. So now, unless I'm one of the three that's graced by Catharsis' direct attentions, I'm spending an hour or two for a negligible chance at winning an increase. I'd rather play lottery myself. At least the gains there, albeit with vanishingly small chances of actually materializing, are tangible.

I don't think that the people who implemented the skills system thought it through all the way yet. There are implications to it that don't seem to be addressed.

[Seidl]

First, might I suggest a more mellow tone? You might get a better response that way. I for one am less inclined to respond rationally to someone who's yelling at me.

And, with no restrictions on the number of people to teach, I could easilly have HUGE classes and quickly impart good dueling skills to everyone. There needs to be limits to not have a massive skill explosion. Part of the goal here is that it may take 2 years to see the top of the skill ladder.

Now, I know you disagree with having a hierarchy in a game, but other games will have much less than Marrach. In Marrach you shoul dhave to work just to have the chance to train with a good teacher. Sure, 8 people come to one of Martel's practices. Who's to say I want to teach them all? What have all of these people done for me? Why am I randomly helping any person who walks in the door.

Yes, there are now optimal sizes for practices, oh well. I'm not willing to decry the system untill its been actaully tried. Should people be able to train 2x their teaching skill at once? Maybe. That can be fixed later. Is an hour too long, should you be able to teach and learn dueling at the same time? Maybe. But its better to start off too slowly and ramp up, then start off learning too quicly and either have to go out and edit each of a 1000 characters to turn their skills down, or just screw even more those who came in after the 'great skill slowdown'.

I am sure all of the suggestions are being listened too. I know I've talked to Skotos staff about some of my concerns and opinions, but you should be willing to have a bit of faith. And give constructive help, instead of simply yelling that its the end of the world.

-=- Matt

[Consuela]

If I might interject a practical question in all this: where is this "teaching book" that was talked about and why wasn't everyone just automatically given Teaching: Novice instead?

[Seidl]

Originally posted by Consuela:
where is this "teaching book" that was talked about and why wasn't everyone just automatically given Teaching: Novice instead?

When I asked CE http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif I was told that it wasn't out yet, but ... soon. It may also turn out that there is some IC bits with it. Maybe you have to go to some of the NPC teachers to learn how to teach, I don't know. I know some people do have the skill though, either from memories or teaching a zillion dueling practices.

-=- Matt

[Kristine]

I would think the reason why not everyone just got novice teaching is because they've NEVER taught before. Take me, for example. I got apprentice teaching because I've been teaching people how to duel for some time.

Others, they learn how to teach from reading a teaching-manual. Something like that :P

~Kristine

[Gareth]

The biggest issue I can see is "parking".

Training/learning characters can just stay logged on while in the same room and walk afk.

Strangely enough, normal time in Marrach flies by. Sitting with someone watching the clockticks seems to make even the minutes ache.

Hmm.

First two experiences have been rather... flat.

But it's fun to compare stats! I'm sure spreadsheets will start flying about.

-Peter/Gareth.

[Kimberly]

Only players can make the teaching and learning of skills fun. Don't teach someone who goes AFK the whole time and doesn't want to RP learning from you. Don't teach someone who just wants to talk OOC the whole hour while they play the skills lottery to see if they learn anything today. Don't teach dueling to the person who wants to just sit in the Refectory and eat lamb while supposedly learning to 'feint'.

Not so long ago, we were all RPing without a skills system. Some months ago, in the first couple months of the game, we were all even RPing dueling practice, for example, every day ... and it wasn't having any technical effect on our characters. We were doing it because it is fun to RP teaching and learning to duel. Why, now, should people just stop RPing the dueling practice, and sit in a room talking OOCly while they wait to see if their skills go up? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the game? If people don't want to RP here, and just want to compete for higher skills, in my opinion they're playing the wrong game.

So, go to that dueling practice, and spar or watch attentively while you're learning 'feint'. Go to that tailoring class, and ask questions about fabrics and fashion while you're learning 'dyeing'. And those of you who are teaching, don't just type 'teach eastern to joeblow' and then go AFK or start an OOC conversation. Talk Eastern with your Eastern students, and then translate what you were saying, and ask them to repeat stuff back to you.

Remember why we're here -- to role-play. We now have an opportunity to RP teaching and learning stuff -- which we've been doing in the game anyway, with the dueling system, etiquette lessons, drawing lessons, dancing lessons, etc. -- with the sudden added bonus of actually seeing technical results of that teaching in some new venues ... and I personally think that's really cool.

Seize the opportunity, and role-play it. Have fun!

Kimberly

[Faruq]

Originally posted by Seidl:
I know some people do have the skill though, either from memories or teaching a zillion dueling practices.

I think it may be a bit more arbitrary than that. I have teaching skill and I accidentally wiped out my original memory. (Important safety tip: "er" is one of the most common letter combinations in the English language.... http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif)

My dueling skills are up from what people are reporting as the norm -- which reflects the training I took. But the teaching skill doesn't reflect anything at all unless it reflects the one time when Faer accidentally left me in charge of a Duelist lesson.

Hmm... Now that I think of it, maybe they gave me Teaching as a default since my memory was erased.

[Atama]

Faruq, when you "forget" stuff it only makes you forget your recalled memory. I'm pretty sure that your memory is still part of your character's file on Skotos's server. I would hope so...

[Catharsis]

Originally posted by NewbieAdvocate:
The RPing of the practices is going to be really damned hollow for five people present. They're taking part in the practice bouts. They're listening to the same lectures. They're taking up the same amount of their time. But they're not getting *ANY* in-game benefit from it.

*Errrr*
Not true. There is a LOT that can still be learned that has nothing to do with the teaching skill system. There is still normal teaching that can occur. For example, before Lucas was my champion I took him aside and we practiced IC on some moves. Suddenly, he started to improve. Sure, this was the player improving OOC, but it DOES have an IC game benefit. Granted, Cath doesn't automatically hand out tips to everyone at her practice but those who do approach her for help generally do receive it. Most of us have formed a fairly good 'teaching' system that has nothing to do with this new skill system. I don't see that dissappearing any day now.

So now, unless I'm one of the three that's graced by Catharsis' direct attentions, I'm spending an hour or two for a negligible chance at winning an increase.

Sorry, but if you are who I think you are, you're not going to be getting much help from Catharsis IC. Yes, I'm not just being arbitrary being you're pissing people off OOC, but I'm using IC reasons, so don't start preaching at me about how to RP.

Leah

[NewbieAdvocate]

Originally posted by Kimberly:
Only players can make the teaching and learning of skills fun. Don't teach someone who goes AFK the whole time and doesn't want to RP learning from you. Don't teach someone who just wants to talk OOC the whole hour while they play the skills lottery to see if they learn anything today. Don't teach dueling to the person who wants to just sit in the Refectory and eat lamb while supposedly learning to 'feint'.

There are a couple of possibly disturbing things here.

1) You used the words "skills lottery" already and the skills system has only just been put in place. I think that this is problematical if its mere description already causes this association. And you're not the first I've heard to use that term either.

2) You've highlighted some of the abuses already possible with the system. Your advice is good -- for those who want to RP skills development. But you've also just listed off exactly how to hack the skills development system. People who want to "cheat" (in spirit, if not in literal fact) can do so easily by just sitting together and going AFK. And the bit about eating lamb in the refectory while learning to feint is a perfect examplar of another abuse.

I'm wondering if there might not be a way to require the skills to be actually *USED* while being taught past Novice level? This means that to learn feint in that hour you spend, you actually have to have been dueling *AND DOING FEINTS*. To learn tailor skills, you have to sew and dye. And so on.

Not so long ago, we were all RPing without a skills system. Some months ago, in the first couple months of the game, we were all even RPing dueling practice, for example, every day ... and it wasn't having any technical effect on our characters. We were doing it because it is fun to RP teaching and learning to duel. Why, now, should people just stop RPing the dueling practice, and sit in a room talking OOCly while they wait to see if their skills go up? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the game? If people don't want to RP here, and just want to compete for higher skills, in my opinion they're playing the wrong game.

The problem is that back in the halcyon days you mentioned, everybody was in the same boat. Nobody was learning anything. The RP became the ends all by itself. In the later manual-count days for dueling practice, everybody was counted by the duels they participated in and won. Again all people involved were on a (relatively) even footing.

Now you'll have eight people, say, in a room with an instructor who can teach three. Out of eight people doing the RPing, only three get any benefit. This looks like a potential problem.

So, go to that dueling practice, and spar or watch attentively while you're learning 'feint'. Go to that tailoring class, and ask questions about fabrics and fashion while you're learning 'dyeing'. And those of you who are teaching, don't just type 'teach eastern to joeblow' and then go AFK or start an OOC conversation. Talk Eastern with your Eastern students, and then translate what you were saying, and ask them to repeat stuff back to you.

It would be really cool if the system reflected this need, don't you think?

Remember why we're here -- to role-play. We now have an opportunity to RP teaching and learning stuff -- which we've been doing in the game anyway, with the dueling system, etiquette lessons, drawing lessons, dancing lessons, etc. -- with the sudden added bonus of actually seeing technical results of that teaching in some new venues ... and I personally think that's really cool.

Only some people in a lesson will be getting a shot at that lottery, however. Unless, of course, the instructors only restrict themselves to a number of students they can teach in a given lesson. In which case the Duelist, Watch and Battler practices will be getting much smaller and much less dynamic in the near future. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

[Atama]

I actually like the idea of making people do IC things to facilitate the teaching of skills. I don't know how well that would integrate with the current system. Maybe a combination... Say, skills improve with repetition, but only when a teacher is present, and teaching.

[ChristopherA]

Originally posted by NewbieAdvocate:
Now you'll have eight people, say, in a room with an instructor who can teach three. Out of eight people doing the RPing, only three get any benefit. This looks like a potential problem.

Not if the teacher is smart. He or she will have the as a requirement for her more senior apprentices to have to help teach the more junior apprentices during previous practices.

-- Christopher Allen

[Minx]

What I have gleaned from all the posts on skills and learning/teaching is that it will take me so long to find someone to teach me and learn a skill that I will not have time to actually do anything else in the game. Basically I see it as this: either I learn a skill or two or I can participate in intrigue and plots.

For those of us who only play a few hours a week, when are we to actually play the game? Sitting in a room for an hour hoping to learn something is not the role-playing we have been doing up to this point. Nor is it role-playing I care to do.

Yes I am aware of the socializing aspects of the game, but I would rather use that angle in actual gameplay not skill development.

If anyone has any constructive advice I would appreciate it.

(btw my issues are not with my skills or levels of them. Just the mechanics)

[NewbieAdvocate]

Originally posted by ChristopherA:
Not if the teacher is smart. He or she will have the as a requirement for her more senior apprentices to have to help teach the more junior apprentices during previous practices.

One change I'd recommend, then, is that it be possible to teach while learning. This would sort of reflect the old-style single-room schools from the days of yore where the older students would teach the younger students while the teacher monitored all of them and taught the older ones.

Using the hypothetical example from before, you have a class if 8 students. 3 of these are taught by the senior instructor directly. These three also teach, however. Let's say one of them can teach two and the other two can teach one each. That means that now seven people can be taught in that room -- albeit some with much less of a chance of improvement -- instead of only three.

This is particularly important in cases where the teaching should, for RP reasons (although not enforced by the system), take place in a limited-availability room -- the practice room, for example. You want to have as many people learning as possible at the same time simply because of the scheduling conflicts.

[Seidl]

For some skills, learning and teaching combined make a lot of sense. Dueling for example. Can't I be learning feint while I teach dodge? I can even see things like languages and dueling. Make your student explain to you all the moves he's teaching in the new language.

Now, learning dyeing while teaching feint might be a bit harder.

-=- Matt

[Kristine]

I agree with Matt.

Yes, this is one of my rare-blunt-me-too posts.

~Kristine

[John]

I suspect the teaching system will keep growing a bit..i see some problems as well but i want to wait untill a few lv are gotten by me to feel it out..also...i do not recall it saying you cant learn while you teach..has anyone tryed?..in a duel i might teach thrust while someone teaches me dodge...i think the parser can support this..
also...how many skills will there be?..this may be diffrent than we expect...i do think however it would be nice if a teacher could teach more than one person..mabey at a loss or something..teach 2 people/ half speed...that would make it easy to have large classes(with some assistants) of novices.. and everyone whould learn..but people who are good..or want to be good..will have to arrange time to learn or live with advancing really slowly..(actally i think a teacher should be able to teach a few people...like up to 4...that means bad teachers can teach one person..but good ones can run classes..)

[Seidl]

John -

Yes, we tried teaching and learning at the same time, you can't.

As far as teaching goes, you can teach one person per point of teaching skill. So if you have a teaching skill of Journyman, you can teach 5 people at once. Not a bad class size actually. Now, it will be a while before we have PC's with that high a teaching I expect, but we shall see.

As for how many skills, lots and lots I'd guess. At least 11 dueling skills, 4 languages, teaching, we know of 4 craft skills and that covers only the fabric crafts. I think there will be plenty of room for people to build little fiefdoms in skill land.

-=- Matt

[Kimberly]

Originally posted by NewbieAdvocate:
Now you'll have eight people, say, in a room with an instructor who can teach three. Out of eight people doing the RPing, only three get any benefit. This looks like a potential problem.

To Christopher's comment, I would also add that this game is largely about Favor. As one of the more experienced duelists in the castle, my character Punzel would almost certainly be impressed with the enthusiasm and dedication of someone who participated in a practice even when they were not being taught directly. On the other hand, the person who pouts and flounces out of the room is likely to lose favor with her.

Teachers are not necessarily just teaching whoever comes to them and asks ... they're teaching the people they want to teach, for whatever reason. And this is purposeful in the system, to get folks to RP attempts at getting favor with the folks who have higher skill. So those other five people in the dueling practice could be attempting to impress the teacher, convince her by their behavior that next time she should teach them. Trying to find out what she wants of her students, and do it.

On the other hand, if some of those five people are already members of the guild or good friends to the teacher, they might just enjoy the RP of participating. I'm sure some newbies would feel the same way, as I've led many a dueling practice where someone new came in, sparred a few times with us, seemed to be enjoying themselves, and then asked at the end of the practice, "Neat. How do I improve?"

I say those who don't want to play unless they are being technically taught at the moment, fine. Pick up your toys and leave. But those who want to play a more complicated game, stay and find out what you need to do to get that teacher (or even one of the other characters present) to teach you next time, instead of one of those other three people.

Kimberly

[Atama]

.i do think however it would be nice if a teacher could teach more than one person..mabey at a loss or something..teach 2 people/ half speed...

This actually doesn't make any sense. If you spend two hours teaching two people, how is that better than spending one hour teaching one person, and the next hour teaching another? I think it's worse, because in your scenario, both students have to wait two hours. The way things stand as they are, each student only needs to spend an hour apiece. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif

[Whyndam]

This is another Me-Too post for a couple of things.

First, I agree with Matt in that you should be able to learn and teach something at the same time, but only in certain combinations. I know this would take quite a bit for CE to implement so that you couldn't mix learning and teaching all of the skills, but it would be nice one day. :-)

Second, kinda going along with Kimberly's post, Whyndam had his first lesson in Northern last night and we RPed the entire lesson. It was alot of fun and will be enjoyable to do again. After you get a Novice skill rank, at least with languages, it'll be easy to RP lessons because you can just speak in whatever language you are trying to learn and have IC conversation.

I do agree that this system can very easily be abused with the whole teach/learn/AFK thing, but most of the people who would be doing this probably aren't people who are going to pay $10 a month to play this game. Not saying it won't happen with even the most well-intentioned players sometimes, but most people who play Marrach will RP the lessons, I think... but then again, who am I and what do I know. :-)
---
Sean

[John]

Originally posted by Atama:
.i do think however it would be nice if a teacher could teach more than one person..mabey at a loss or something..teach 2 people/ half speed...

This actually doesn't make any sense. If you spend two hours teaching two people, how is that better than spending one hour teaching one person, and the next hour teaching another? I think it's worse, because in your scenario, both students have to wait two hours. The way things stand as they are, each student only needs to spend an hour apiece. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif

actally i ment half as good..not a diffrent speed http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif..sorry.. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

[Seidl]

Originally posted by John:
actally i ment half as good..not a diffrent speed http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif..sorry.. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

This would actually say that you are better off teaching really large classes.

Statisticly, you will do better if you teach N people each with X/N chance to go up than if you teach 1 person with N chance. I can go into the math if you want, its not too bad, but not what I want to do in the forums unless asked.

Really, I think the class sizes are fine. I'd like to be able to teach and learn at the same time, but maybe only for skills within the same 'class'? I can learn a dueling skill while teaching one, but not a crafting skill. Or I can learn and teach a language at the same time, but not mix that in with a dueling skill. Now, this is very over-simplified, but I think it might make sense.

Another extension would be that you could teach people while learning, but not the person you were teaching. So the master teaches the apprentices while the apprentices teach the novices. The problem here is that you could get a loop. A teaches B who teachs C who teaches A. And detecting the loops is a pain.

Must ponder more.

-=- Matt

[NewbieAdvocate]

Originally posted by Seidl:
Really, I think the class sizes are fine. I'd like to be able to teach and learn at the same time, but maybe only for skills within the same 'class'?

I like that idea.

Another idea would be to restrict class sizes by a combination of your skill, your teaching skill and the students' skills. This way a master teaching a protege would start having to have private sessions.

Think of university. Think of your average first-year class sizes. Now think of your average fourth-year class sizes. Now think of the relationships at post-grad. Number of people being taught at any given level shrinks -- partially because it requires more personal attention.

[Ra'Dorcha]

Originally posted by NewbieAdvocate:
Think of university. Think of your average first-year class sizes. Now think of your average fourth-year class sizes. Now think of the relationships at post-grad. Number of people being taught at any given level shrinks -- partially because it requires more personal attention.

I think this is much more where favor and experience will come in. To usethe duelists as an example(since that's the biggest skill right now):
Master Duelist A begins classes this week and makes the decision to teach 5 people. The 5 students all become novices (because he is a great teacher). This continues for several months until the 5 students all reach, say the 4th ranking. But at this point, one person hasn't learned as quickly or missed a class or two and they are at 3.

Master Duelist A continues to teach the 4 who are the best, but requires they take over his begining classes.

We actually do see this with the Magi. Elea stepped down from teaching the first Magi class and Initiate Doren stepped in. Now I imagine she will train with Lady Seistra to gain a higher skill, perhaps one grade above the other two. Once the next binding comes, The current initiates step down (well actually step up in terms of training) from teaching and the new group steps in. (Granted this is pure speculation as I do not know what is the actual plan.)

In six months: the old school players will be learning from the big NPCs, the second group (still big kids now) from the old school, we who woke up recently will learn from those big kids (at that point we will be the big kids) and these newbies will be learning from us.

Perhaps a good question is will the people starting now let the newbies into their sandboxes? Me? I heading over to the swingset, I think I saw an Initiate over there. Have fun in the dirt. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif

[ShannonA]

Originally posted by NewbieAdvocate:
So now, unless I'm one of the three that's graced by Catharsis' direct attentions, I'm spending an hour or two for a negligible chance at winning an increase. I'd rather play lottery myself. At least the gains there, albeit with vanishingly small chances of actually materializing, are tangible.

Well, as other people have mentioned, hopefully you're enjoying the socialization that occurs while you're learning the skill. Marrach is at core a Socialization game, so we have not tried to build a system for Achievers (see http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_25.html for a discussion of these terms). We'll clearly be working out kinks for a little bit, but I think the current design has real possibility for meeting our goal.

Onward to something that hasn't really been discussed: your concerns over the system being a "lottery". You're quite right that you can sometimes study a skill without success. If you have a poor teacher, that actually happens 9 times out of 10. That's a very purposeful decision, however. We're trying to ensure that skills don't inflate so quickly that within a week (or a month or whatever) everyone has "used up" the skill systems. So we want to put limits on skill growth.

We could actually do this one of two ways:

1. Randomly. What we're doing. With a terrible teacher you might have a 10% chance of going up each day.

2. Fractionally. Just replace the random number with its expected value. So, with a terrible teacher, you'd go up .1 point in a skill each day.

I have a suspicion that the latter system might make people feel less like things are a lottery, despite the fact that it's statistically almost the exact same system. The expectation is that you'll go up in a skill being taught by a poor teacher in 10 sessions.

I personally think it would be a much poorer system, however, because there's no opportunity for the despair of not going up after twenty sessions of trying nor for the joy in going up after a single session.

Opinions?

Shannon

[Kyle]

Personaly I like the idea of stability that the .1 provides but also the Jackpot that the % may (but probobly wount) provide. I think that the .1 will get a lot less complaints. but I cant seem to make a choice in my mind.

everyone, lets just accept that CE knows what there doing. Maybe they dont. but with all this bickering...
I wonder what that sound is... My computer doesnt have batteries, that realy wierd.
No Keegan must have been messing with my sound profiles for various actions.

[Seidl]

I'd actually vote for a combination. Two levels of learning. If you fail the role you get some small amount. If you make the roll a much larger amount, but maybe less than what you need to go up the level. Then set the levels to make sure that you advance faster at low level than higher level. I just really don't especially like failing to learn anything for a week, but hearing about another character who gets lucky and picks up 4 skills in that time.

-=- Matt

[Atama]

Elea stepped down from teaching the first Magi class and Initiate Doren stepped in.

Doren is back in the game again? Cool! I missed him, I haven't seen him around for months now. With so many people I like leaving, it's good to see other people coming back. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif