What happens when people just won't play right?

[Atama]

We've been having some difficulties on occasion with players not role-playing properly (see the thread about needing a brawl system) and typically this is with newer players that show up, annoy everyone and then quit for good.

Now, while that is a momentary annoyance that is unavoidable, what do you do when a long-time player performs this way?

Case in point: the infamous ser Sadpeau. He is most definitely not a newbie (he's been playing the game longer than me) and yet he continues to be rude, disruptive, and ignores things like blows, and Watchmen that try to arrest him (grrr...). Thanks to the current Consent system, which normally works just great, he has the freedom to do whatever he wants without punishment, since he never plays during staffed hours (which I believe is on purpose).

He has done many things, such as claimed the Queen as his mother, assaulted sera Anabeth, and tried to push Cedric off a parapet, along with other incidents I have heard about briefly. Which, normally is fine... every world needs its share of troublemakers to liven things up. But when it comes time to arrest him, or speak with him, he insults people both IC and OOC, and when things get too hot he just quits the game. This has caused a great disruption OOC for many people, and frankly has angered alot of players. Having upset players is not a good thing... conflict is fine as part of a story, but it is no fun to have to put up with another player who is a jerk.

So what do we do? I know that the Watch is supposed to be getting the Restrain command and access to the dungeons eventually, but I don't believe we can use that without the player's consent (and he refuses to do anything of the kind) and players don't have those abilities yet anyways. And since staff is never on when he is, we can't simply do an assist...

I know that many of you have suffered his annoyances, I would like to hear your thoughts, and know what Skotos can do for us as players to prevent this kind of abuse.

[Lucas]

This is one thing I have not been looking forward to as a Watchman - running into some jerk who refuses to go along and just keeps acting like a total moron regardless of anything I or anyone else does. So far everyone has been great, but there's always one. Being a beta, I understand we have to wait for some features like the restrain command (which I am eagerly awaiting, just for the sake of peace of mind) but when we do get it, it needs to be non-consensual for this very reason. If a Watchman abuses it then by all means take it away from that one Watchman, but having someone who just wants to make trouble run roughshod over the Watch because he won't consent to be taken in really hurts the Watch's credibility. In fact, recently I have had a couple of people ask me about this very subject and they were kind of eyeing me, saying "So basically you can't do anything to anyone unless they say it's okay?" Just makes me nervous.

Okay, rant over now. Nothing to see here, move along...

[Artegal]

Case in point--last evening a new denizen of the Castle intruded on Sir Launfal and proceeded to throw food in his study. The chamberlain demanded that I arrest him when the offender continued to be surly and walked out of the room. If Launfal hadn't intervened and temporarily gave Artegal the ability to restrain and incarcerate a "mischievous" player, it would definitely have called into question both the competency of the Watch and the Chamberlain.

The restrain command needs to be nonconsensual in these cases. Those players who become members of the Watch have to demonstrate both IC (and as a corrolary OOC) that they are reliable and do not abuse their station, so if the Watchman or Watchwoman abuses that ability, like any other privilege in the Castle, it can and should be taken away. (Of course, if the Watch person has a sanctioned plot reason to be carting people off to the pokey, that's another matter... heh, heh.)

[stealthkat]

Here's my thoughts...

From an administrative perspective, I think it could be wise to give some designated characters the ability to control/shape IC and OOC behavior. Especially since Skotos staff will, at least for a while, not be able to provide 24 x 7 storyhost support. What better group to give this to than our local protectors, the Watchmen. I would just make sure that the criteria for membership is stricter than, say, any person that can recite a poem...oh, ignore that. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

From a player perspective, last night my patience was tried by a new person who insisted on attempting to molest Katherine.
Thanks to the consent system, I had my choice to allow him or not. However, there's only so many times I can deny him and explain IC that my heart is taken, and OOC that I'm denying him because he's just being plain rude, before I stragically allowed him. At which time Lobo was there to RP beating the pulp out of him. Thanks, Uncle!

I was increasingly frustrated by the fact that the person asked for help and then repeatedly ignored my OOC and IC suggestions. He was interested in where the weapons and fighting was, not to mention about groping Katherine, but I wasn't going to turn him loose in the Practice Room, aka the Lion's Den. I wanted to give him a chance to get used to Castle commands and etiquette so that he could figure out if he wanted to play a villianous knave, and so that he'd come back a second time. Unfortunately, once he figured out that Lobo's punches were, in effect, ineffectual, he merely quit. Had I been able to summon a Watchman to come to my defense to begin with, and had the Watchman been able to restrain him, it may have been enough 'excitement' for us to capture his initial attention, and then turn him on to the finer points of role-playing. *sigh*

In conclusion, I vote for at least the Winter Watch being able to restrain characters without consent. Other characters/guilds may or may not require the consent. I don't know on that. But at least this would be a start.

Kathy ~ Katherine

[Seidl]

I would actually encourage them to give restrain to not just watchman, but others who have shown they can be reasonable. The watch are the only one who can arrest him. But the duelists or battlers can beat him to a pulp. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif And at least break up fights and such.

-=- Matt aka. Martel

[Darren Brimhall]

I remember what happened to Katherine that night and forcibly dragged THAT player out of the area, which caused him to change his tune quite conciderably (Grab Command, that's what I used). Later, that same person became surly to me in the Dining Hall--and all I did was give him a simple reminder of what I did earlier, he backed down right quick.
At the time, I thought it was role playing, which is why I acted so slow then (and I could just now imagine what would have occured if I tried the same thing on Cassandra when I first came out of my room--oh boy!), now I know better and should step in more quickly.
Katherine, I'm sorry I didn't move when I should have--I didn't REALLY know what was going on.

Darren Brimhall

[Malik]

Hey guys,

I was going to address this very topic myself but I'll just add my thoughts on the subject here.

First off, we are working on empowering Watchmen, and Watchmen only (they are the only players who logically would have that responsibility), to actually arrest other players (Duelists should challenge them to a duel, Matt/Martel, hence being a Duelist http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif) along with guidelines on how to handle the IC/OOC issues associated with doing so. We hope to have this in place in very soon.

I also wanted to address the topic of players who want to RP being arrested.
I have no problem with any player who can responsibly RP an arrest and I understand the inherent attraction to the attention it draws your character. However, please know that when you RP an arrest you are effectively taking that character out of the game for anywhere from an hour to the whole day/night.

Also, when the arrest is actually taking place any insulting, punching, kicking, biting, running, etc. of Watchmen, Royal Guard's or nobles will only add to the penalty. Think of it as getting arrested for a misdemeanor and you decide to punch the arresting officer, it makes a mountain out of a molehill. In other words, it's a bad idea. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

I would also like to add that when you are initially confronted by the Watch, that is the time to offer excuses for, or beg off, of your initial behavior, not when you're in the Watch office or being thrown into the dungeon. Nobody wants to throw another player in the dungeon where they can't play so offering apologies or excuses before the situation escalates will almost surely gain you leniency. And in the interest of a long stay in the Castle, it may be best to pass up the momentary attention getting arrested gains your character, in the interest of maintaining your reputation. Of course, if you're happy to be known as a dungeon dweller, that's cool too. Just know the consequences. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

StoryHost Malik

[Retribution]

Yes, those are very good points, I was arrested early on during beta, and although it does attract attention, unless you want your characters reputation ruined, its not a good idea.

[Atama]

If I am arresting someone, and they back down right away and apologize and stop their behavior, ESPECIALLY if they are new, I usually let them go with a warning. I understand that some people just don't realize the right thing to do at first. But repeat offenders like Sadpeau, who only play to irritate people... that is what I am opposed to. I mean, I almost don't want to play if he's online.

And to Darren... sorry buddy, but Grab has no in-game effect. It's nothing more than an emote. Trust me on this... it's also something that must be consented to before it works. If Grab worked, then Watchmen wouldn't have as tough a time as they do right now. http://www.skotos.net/ubb/frown.gif

Thanks Malik, by the way. I really look forward to seeing how those effects finally work.

[JeffCrook]

Isn't there an 'Ignore _character_' command? Back in my chat room days, whenever someone would come into a room acting obnoxious, every would just use the ignore command. Pretty soon everybody is ignoring that character and all his or her posts and actions. If a tree falls in the forest and no one can hear it, does it make a noise? In this case, no.

To make this work properly, though, I'd give the Watch the ability to override an ignore command.

[Avenger]

Awww...shouldn't Duelists be able to do something that the Watch can't, if the Watch can do something the Duelists can't?

Also, it think right now, the reasons for getting arrested are much too limited. In Middle-Ages, one could quite possibly by executed out of hand for something as simple as slighting your superior. If a page accidentally bumped into a Lady of the castle while delivering something to her, she can immediately order his death if she desires, and none will say that she was wrong. Admittedly only exceptionally cruel nobles would behave like that, and usually only because they wish to make an example to further cow the lower classes, but there you have it.

[ChristopherA]

Originally posted by Avenger:
Awww...shouldn't Duelists be able to do something that the Watch can't, if the Watch can do something the Duelists can't?

Fundamentally the Watch can arrest not because of any special ability, but that the guards will listen to them.

Over time, anyone with sufficient favor or influence should be able to get guards to listen to them as well.

-- Christopher Allen

[Darren Brimhall]

But what I can't figure out is how I was able to drag that charater away from Katherine?

Darren brimhall

[Avenger]

He was a happy camper and set himself to follow you.

[Atama]

Find that player, and ask him OOC if he remembers the incident and if he was roleplaying.

Frankly, all he had to do was consent to the grab and then auto-follow you.

[Darren Brimhall]

That's probibly what happened; I was helping Katherine take him to the Dinning Room, and probliby figured out the 'Follow' command.
Thought I had something there that would help (sadly sigh).
But I believe his name was 'Dacturis', or something close.

Darren Brimhall

[fyrman]

To those players who seem to think that this game should be flowers, feathers and fluff, wake up! When should a fantasy world be nothing more than good lawful people running about? Boring? Yes! As far as an accused criminal turning himself in for punishment, that won't happen. I am for the Watch being able to subdue criminals. Only the Watch! but that is a programming flaw, not a RP one.

There are those characters who know the reasons and the truths for Sadpeau's actions, yet they will not speak up due to retribution from the rest of you who seem to have the idea that this matriarchal world is an Utopia.

Grant the use of weapons, (i.e. daggers, poisons, clubs, etc.) then you'll have a fantasy world in which it will mirror other RP worlds. Then others such as myself will not be as daring. When loopholes exist they will be used.

Not all players in this world can play, even if they wanted to at the main hours of play by the staff. So for anyone to challenge my hours of play shows the simpleton minds that come up with such ideas. I live in the real world and PLAY in the fantasy world. for others that may be reversed.

I only attacked those characters OOC when I was attacked. In others words, I defended not offended.

If this world that is being Beta tested is to be successful, then create the danger the invokes the spirit of play. Talk is cheap.

Again, give the Watch the ability to subdue with whatever commands you the staff choose, but for all parties concerned, for every right there is a left. For every top there is a bottom. For every good there is evil.

To those characters Sadpeau has offended, both IC and OOC, I apologize because you the players have been offended, not the intended characters.


I welcome replies.


Play on! Play Skotos!

Sadpeau of the Shadows

[Angron]

Agreed that it is difficult to play an evil character right now, but if Skotos get more staff, then they can RP more plots and thus more dark schemes.

I like the idea of more items, if only for trappings, however. Still, if you get caught in public with a two-handed sword, you'll be beheaded quickly.

[KathyN]

Regarding the problem of players who won't grant consent but feel free to attack those who have given consent: perhaps the system already works this way and I just haven't noticed, but a really elegant solution might be to make it that if you've given consent and are attacked then you automatically are given consent to retaliate against your attacker. Or at least give the ability to members of the Watch and others who have gained a measure of trust within the Castle? Would this work?

[Atama]

KathyN, it already works that way. Consent works via proximity... in other words, for someone to whisper, kiss, punch, hold, or do anything that requires them to get close to you, they have to enter your "personal space". Once they have entered that space, you are free to kick, punch, grab, kiss, hold, hug, squeeze... do whatever, until someone moves away from that space. If someone REALLY wanted to be a coward, they could kick you, then approach a table, for example, then deny consent to let you hit them. Since there are currently no in-game effects, this is all academic (as some lame players will stand there laughing as multiple people rain blows upon them).

To Angron (and Fyrman to a lesser extent) it is very feasible to play an evil character. You just have to be GOOD at it. It's not easy, and I have made blunders in the past, but it is working out fine now. I have spoken with CE about giving evil characters a better chance, and they said once more staff in on-board, there will be more opportunities for those things. For right now, you aren't going to get anywhere being evil unless you are doing it right.

And to Fyrman... I rarely criticize someone's gameplay, I give people the benefit of the doubt, and realize everyone comes from different backgrounds. Some people just need to learn it as they go along, and I encourage that, and will give people help as they need it. But, frankly, you just don't try... I know I am not alone when I say that you just take the fun out of the game. You don't have to be a "nice" character, like I have said, I play a very nasty character. But, you DO need to respect other PLAYERS (not characters) and go along with things, or you will find yourself ostracized very quickly (and let me tell you, you are very close already). If you are serious about playing this game, talk to myself, Philo, or Faer, OOC, about developing some plots for Sadpeau, and we can plan out some nasty stuff for you to do. But so far, you have taken advantage of some game flaws (as you mentioned yourself) and have been RPing very poorly up to now. I would love to discuss things with you OOC if you want to get involved, and will go along with anything you want to do if it is reasonable (and though I will know about it, Zero will be completely clueless).

[Angron]

I agree totally. To be a villian in this game, at least so far, requires you to be uncommonly good at it.Right now, any evil characters will have to play much like the Cult of the Sith in Star Wars:PM. To the surface, they need to appear as normal, even good, upstanding citizens, but when they settle into their alter-ego in some private place, they can be as dark and sadistic as they like. Their appearance of humanity is merely a mask to their ultimatly darker natures.

In addition, this game gives an unique ability for a shadow organization to behave completely evil, yet have arguably good intentions as far as we the players are considered.Even a benevolent death god(like Morr in WFRP), for example, would want his mortals to truly die, instead of being ressurected in an arguably unnatural process.
Thus, he will want to destroy this castle and everything within.

There's some problems with this, of course. The most serious is the reliance on the CEs to help your plots. If a secret room for the cult is to be made with an dark artifact within, the CEs will have to make it. If a disguise is used, the CEs will have to make it. If a infernal ceremony is made, the CEs will have to arrange it.

Ser Angron,
Apprentice to Ser Andrew
Chronicler Aspirant

[JeffCrook]

Originally posted by fyrman:
To those players who seem to think that this game should be flowers, feathers and fluff, wake up!

I think this is a matter of perception. The fact that there is a consent system seems to indicate that the intentions for this particular game are that it be character driven, not action driven. This may not be your cup of drano, which is understandable, but it is pointless to strive against the game designers' intentions. There will be other games (mine included) in which there will not be a consent system, where
others such as myself will not be as daring.


What is more...
If this world that is being Beta tested is to be successful, then create the danger the invokes the spirit of play.

Some people prefer their sense of danger to be planned and agreed upon before the danger is introduced. They only want you to be able to stab them in the back if it is a part of the story that they want to play. The challenge for them is in playing a part in concert with others, and not in competition.

However, neither of these styles of role-playing is the 'correct' one. The correct style of role-playing is the one best fitted to the people who you are playing with. 'Playing right' depends on the agreed upon style of play for which the game seems designed, or the style on which the players have agreed. Castle Marrach seems designed for this thespian style of play.

In Qigung, I hope to incorporate both styles of play. This may not be possible. I hope it is.

[KathyN]

I should be working but I'm so annoyed at what just occured even though I think everyone present handled the situation pretty well. A charactor called Rabellen (sp?) came into the room and started being disruptive, violent and abusive, targeting Zero. He apparently thought he'd get tossed into the dungeon automatically for being stupid! I have nothing against a player who has a well thought out evil charactor. There's a place for bad guys (we love you Retri!) http://www.skotos.net/ubb/wink.gif But the people who come into the game expecting god-knows-what... NPC's to beat up or whatever! seem to be taking out their agressions on whoever happens to be around. I vote that we give the magic users the power to turn these gits into cute little toads or worse yet fluffy bunnies! (mmmm rabbit stew!)
It's worst when the castle isn't staffed since the Storyhosts do a great job of booting the troublemakers. Meanwhile what might work is to either ignore the obvious disruptor's or react to them in ways they aren't prepared for. Mess with their heads for a change!
Anyway that's my rant!
Play fair!

[Seidl]

Originally posted by KathyN:
I should be working but I'm so annoyed at what just occured even though I think everyone present handled the situation pretty well. A charactor called Rabellen (sp?) came into the room and started being disruptive, violent and abusive, targeting Zero.

I managed to drag him away and talk to him a little, but got very little information out of him. I think he was going to go throw himself from a balcany or something, but it wasn't totally clear.

Reballan - if you read this, I am sure many of us would be happy to do some RP scenes of arresting you and such, but please either ask first, or at least whisper in the middle of it so the other people know what you're doing. And know the limitations we're all operating under as well.

-=- Matt aka. Martel