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"Damn You Wee Bull" -- In praise of Victor's unsanctioned duels

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  • "Damn You Wee Bull" -- In praise of Victor's unsanctioned duels

    Okay.

    All that stuff about unsanctioned duels?

    What I was tired of was when the "honor" of the situation was questionable. The insult taken against various comments completely overblown. The press of a duel for dubious reasons. The manufacture of tired excuses... not dramatic motivations.

    Victor is the man.

    He insults "the wrong person" blatantly. He makes it apparent why there's going to be steel drawn.

    Then he gives the crowd their money's worth in the fight.

    Of course, it helps that the outcome is sort of pre-determined... He 'gets away with stuff' that other people would be wound-licking quite a while over. (Fear his L33t $k1LL$.)

    That doesn't stop the drama of it. There's more than just "So-and-so and Victor stop dueling. So-and-so is declared the loser."

    Fighting Caltos & Arikon the other night, and fighting Alacia today was very "artful".

    Drama. Suspense. Strong and good reasoning to fight him. Witnesses. And stuff to pull in -- not drive off -- the crowd.

    For those who think "I suck" generally, or I'm mamby-pamby milquetoast, I actually helped "manufacture" these incidents. I invited Victor to stick around at the Poet's Brotherhood meeting (and recited a poem which Victor responded to uncivilly; others challenged him for it).

    In fact, his comment caused the other duel with the Royal Handmaiden when she heard of it.

    Bam! Drama!

    Good stuff.

    -Pete.
    Last edited by Gareth; 10-01-2002, 11:54 PM.
    ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

    ~ For Love! For Valour!
    ~ For Honour! For Glory!
    ~ Onwards to Adventure!

  • #2
    Two opinions about this:

    1) A normal character would never get away with the things victor, as a vp, does.

    2) After several attempts to say it without too much offense, I'll just keep my second opinion to myself.
    "If his unpleasant wounding has in some way enlightened the rest of you to the grim finish under the glossy veneer of criminal life, and inspired you to change your ways, then his injuries carry with it an inherent nobility, and a supreme glory; we should all be so fortunate. You say poor Toby, I say poor us." --Gone in Sixty Seconds

    No one ever leaves, all they do is sit on the forums and piss and moan about how bad everything is. --Aziel

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Skout_
      Two opinions about this:

      1) A normal character would never get away with the things victor, as a vp, does.
      Actually, its not a VP issue - its an IC issue.

      :-)

      Mark T

      Comment


      • #4
        What ever!!!
        Poking my VooDoo Doll Viciously!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MarkTrevayne
          Actually, its not a VP issue - its an IC issue.

          :-)

          Mark T
          Not entierly, or at least its not seen that way by some of the players.
          Often a vp is shown more respect and care by other charicters/players than a pc. This is best noted with our higher ranked charicters. If a pc and a vp of the same rank do something, the vp gets more done with less flack. I dont like it becouse IC no one should know your a vp, but as we all know people do.
          Now I do like victor, but from dungen time alone, if he was a pc he prob would have quit so.. there is a flip side to see.

          Comment


          • #6
            These VP characters have been around longer than the PC characters. They have relationships with other older denizens. They are better known, they are going to get more slack, of course.

            Never forget that at most your character is two years awakened, and that the majority of the people in power (real power) have been around for at least a century. Of course they are going to give the people they have known longer more slack (or less, in the case of some age-old rivalries).
            The amount of eccentricity in a society has generally been proportional to the amount of genius, mental vigor, and moral courage it contained. That so few now dare to be eccentric marks the chief danger of the time. ~John Stuart Mill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by John
              Now I do like victor, but from dungen time alone, if he was a pc he prob would have quit so.. there is a flip side to see.
              Perhaps I miss what exactly VPs are getting away with that a PC couldn't. Victor spends much time in the dungeon for his actions.

              Much more than time I would say is connections. VP A might only be 11th link, but due to who they work for, they pretty much can get away with murder. Meanwhile, PC B is a courtier bust hasn't really established such a strong sponsor. In fact we've a few courtiers who not only don't have a sponsor, but really don't have any type of power base to work from.

              It's not who you are, it's who you know.

              Though also as was pointed out in one of the articles, "By your deeds are you known."
              -StoryHost Xios

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SPXios
                Perhaps I miss what exactly VPs are getting away with that a PC couldn't. Victor spends much time in the dungeon for his actions.

                Much more than time I would say is connections. VP A might only be 11th link, but due to who they work for, they pretty much can get away with murder. Meanwhile, PC B is a courtier bust hasn't really established such a strong sponsor. In fact we've a few courtiers who not only don't have a sponsor, but really don't have any type of power base to work from.

                It's not who you are, it's who you know.

                Though also as was pointed out in one of the articles, "By your deeds are you known."
                I see I was unclear, and the flip side comment was that when a vp gets into more trouble they dont leave game, becouse they are a vp..(thats a good thing)
                But often we have players (Note.. this is not the VP's fault.. its the player perception) who will hang on the every word of a low ranked vp. bow to them, help them.. RP with them ect.. but who still nod when a PC of higher rank comes into the room. Now a lot of this is player fault. The pc's with high rank and use it as much as the VPs. (aka I dont think I have seen darvius have anyone flogged yet, however just about every vp and sp knight who has set foot in the OB has had someone flogged )
                The point is people act diffrently tword vp charicters often becouse they are vps. This is nothing against the vps themselves.

                Comment


                • #9
                  My thoughts from expirence....

                  Alright, here's my issue.

                  NPC character bust out sword, duels so and so and gets off.... Even if they are sponcered to have this weapon, it's perfectly fine for them to just bust out and duel whenever they want....

                  Now... if I busted out any weapon of any sort even if I was sponcered, I bet I would still spend a few day in the dungeons and have my weapon removed from my person until it was 'cleared' that I was allowed to have it... then again, I would probably serve time for 'public distrubance' why... cause people LOOK for things to bust me for.

                  I twisted someones fingers.... 'Assault!'
                  I bring a beer into a practice.... 'Disturbing the public!'

                  And I know I bring this on myself... it's how I play my character. People have paged me or have told me to just apologize and everything will be fine and I'll be able to get lessons and so forth... but that's not how I play my character... why break his persona cause I want something for him OOCly.

                  You know what... I've gotten way off topic here... as I usually do.

                  Anyways, my point is, if Stellar would have done any of these things... he would be locked away for a very long time. And I'm not saying it's a PC vs VP issue, but it does alter decisions in some players eyes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Getting away with stuff."

                    Victor bends the Laws of Marrachian Space-Time. Victor has gotten away with things ICly, but also on a metagame level.

                    People "root" for Victor to cause conflict, and don't bust his balls the same way another character who would do the same action.

                    What Victor said would have gotten someone else jail time. Period. He was cut slack. Period. You can say it was "ICly," but this is OOCly leaning too. HEAVY leaning.

                    Like... Make up excuses to let him off. Period.

                    Even if Victor is completely unapologetic. The Watch & Guard know this doesn't often happen for Joe Firstweek.

                    We keep hearing about the Watch or Guard "upholding the Law."

                    Well... I've seen the law sort of melt around Victor. Both for his benefit (usually) and sometimes against him. Other people also get "let off" -- for example, mutual assaults get ignored. But it's just "sort of a guideline" when he's in the room.



                    Not that I'm saying that there can't be "unfair" situations ICly (or even OOCly manufactured) -- but recognize -- it's not a level playing field.

                    His skills also "let him get away with it." As someone else, even if they weren't jailed, would either be near dead or dead.

                    Those skill levels were assigned to Victor. It's not like he ICly 'earned' them. He also doesn't have to "work for it" like the rest of us poor slobs turning up to 3-6 practices a week for a year or two just for a half-decent chance to "lose well" to him.

                    Also, Victor is a VP character, so he's one extra in the roster for the player to play. If he (or someone like him) gets sent to the dungeon -- oh well, you go back to your others.

                    You can rotate. It's not like he's a "main" which you feel terrible about if they get busted and sent away for weeks or months.

                    I do recognize some VP players do play their VPs either more than their "main PC" characters or practically exclusively play their VPs. Some are very contientious, and I don't mean to disrespect the VP position. Just pointing out the obvious: you're not "stuck" when your VP gets busted.

                    The question is -- are there, or can there be player-character "Victorettes" -- little Victors -- who can for causes villainous or virtuous, do similar cool drawn-steel action?

                    For the most part -- I haven't seen it. Not from lack of trying.

                    If it's done well -- Huzzah! Rousing coolness. Crowd sticks around. People take ICly interest in the outcome.

                    If it's done poorly -- "Sigh. Again? Arrrgh. This is so lame. Let's get out of here...."

                    There are, of course, people who think any fighting is the latter, and some people who think any fight is better than sitting around doing peaceful crap.

                    I'm talking more the bottom line: is it 5-star two-fisted action-adventure, or lame-o channel-changing, walk-out-of-the-movie bad attempts at acting?

                    i.e., "art."

                    Mostly the system breaks down long before the fighting in the "Oh yeah?" -- "Yeah!" name-calling stage.

                    There is also the issue of -- if you do this and fail -- get shut down dramatically either by being ignored or dragged off, or, if you do get it to conflict stage, plain-old get your ass kicked, will people still take you seriously in subsequent actions?

                    What if "by thy deeds thou shalt thou be known" turn into "He mouthed off about the Queen. So we killed him"?

                    Now you drop a few skill levels. Whoops! Come back. Try again. Whoops! Try again... Whoops!

                    I guess people can end up "unskilled" rather quickly that way...

                    Again -- Victor -- "fear his leet skills." If someone else is just an asshole with nothing to back them up -- (sigh) Just call the Watch, throw them in the hole for disturbing the peace. Or, kill them.
                    So to me, there's an "art" to instigation. But there's also a hard science to it too.

                    Now -- Virtuous Instigators.

                    How can you take affrontery and not be seen as purely a snob, a jerk or an annoyance?

                    How can you engage people in trying to go through with a duel before people roll their eyes and say, "It's just not worth it."

                    Again -- Victor's got that big damn sword and those skills to back up his action. People are drawn to challenge him because he's Mount Everest. He's the impossible Vegas Jackpot you're trying to win.
                    What if you're just a mousie imitation, would-be, Senior Apprentice Cut Victor-wannabe?

                    You don't get far in this world.

                    1) Tough to get lessons.

                    2) Tough to get a sword.

                    3) Tough to get people to challenge you.

                    4) Tough to not just get tossed in the dungeon.

                    Yes, yes yes. I know. These people can join the Watch or the Duelists. Sometimes.

                    Then, it's an uneasy fit for people who aren't flaming assholes to get along with them. All the metagame breaks these "uncivil" members get just to allow them to play their characters and be in the same scene with other people feel terribly unnatural. It causes attrition of other less caustic players -- don't doubt that! A smart person who sees that things are being tweaked just to let someone else "fit in" sees the inherent unfairness and leaves. They don't need this grief. It causes headaches OOCly.

                    i.e., you let the bad apples spoil the bunch. To let one or two people "have fun," you cheese the fun of the vast majority.

                    I'm not asking for Care Bear lovey-dovey. I'm talking about keeping people from all up and quitting, ICly or OOCly.

                    It's why I thought/think a "virtuous" unsanctioned dueling path might be more interesting and productive for a Player Character point-of-view. (Personal opinion.)

                    i.e., "two goods" fighting each other, versus an "uncivil jerk" vs. "long-suffering everyone elses."

                    It works for Victor. I don't know how many others can actually walk this path without his advantages, and make it fun and interesting for other people to be around. Maybe someone else can prove me wrong.

                    There does finally seem to be sufficient numbers of skillful teachers with dubious morals and ethics out there, now after 2 years. Some are taking on or toying with the idea of proteges.

                    Maybe there can be that "bad dojo" on the other side of town like you see in martial arts movies?

                    I don't think the Watch or the Duelists want to think of themselves as the "bad dojo". They might have their bad sides, or still harbor "bad apples," or may "turn bad " completely in days to come. But that would be a thematic change when the world decides that one of the Virtues -- "Law" or "Honor" was hollow and empty.

                    All of these are my ramblings on the matter. Victor did good. These are the challenges for someone else who wants to have compelling -- not repelling -- unsanctioned dueling drama.

                    And before y'all start yelling, you know what I mean even if you don't agree. Reasoned, progressive feedback is desired and encouraged.

                    -Pete.
                    ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

                    ~ For Love! For Valour!
                    ~ For Honour! For Glory!
                    ~ Onwards to Adventure!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: My thoughts from expirence....

                      Originally posted by Stellar
                      Alright, here's my issue...

                      I twisted someones fingers.... 'Assault!'
                      Well...as an aside here...ser Guttersnipe twisted the fingers of one of the poorly confused seras who has reverted to a childlike innocence. He did not challenge her to an honorable duel, he just spitefully hurt her. That, and the fact that he would not apologize to the little sera, is why Isadora challenged him. She would have challenged anyone who hurt an innocent like that and so rudely disrespected them.

                      :::eyeshift::::

                      Victor, do not twist any of the little seras fingers, please.



                      Kimberley

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Stellar -- 100% with you

                        I have seen exactly what Stellar is talking about.

                        Is there something Victor can teach these other would-be felons about how to avoid getting thrown in the hole?

                        This is my "logical, neutral" mind thinking.

                        Meanwhile my Inner Gareth is freaking out -- "There are too many Stellars! There are too many Victors! There are too few Watchpersons! Life is so uncivil! This place is one step away from anarchy!" My Gareth is telling me -- DON'T promote this sort of thing!

                        But the present dramatic situation is not very satisfying. It's torturous to the Stellars that have to work waaaaay too frikkin' hard to get anywhere.

                        There's usually no incentive for the "baddie" to do anything other than thumb your nose and laugh your ass off at the good guys.

                        While entertaining for a while, there's no "result" here. It's just a way to while the hours away while you think of something really cool and villanous to do.

                        And it also leaves "good guy" people feeling completely feeble and tired putting up with insults they have no reason in the world to listen or respond to. Even if they respond, there's no "traction" for them.

                        What will they get? A repentant Stellar?

                        "Gee Missus Crabtree. I really didn't mean it... I'm sorry I hurt your feelings."

                        I don't think so.

                        So all this does is make things generally uncivil, but doesn't really accomplish much; dramatically, or for in-game world-advancement

                        Sure, Stellar and his ilk can get illegal weapons and murder tons of folks! Happens all the time!

                        But he doesn't have a ready reason to head in to, or an easy way out from, unsanctioned dueling. Unless he wants to risk getting busted for illegal weapons possession, possible assault-with-a-weapon or murder charges. (Yes, I imagine "honorable people" might just outright lie and say Stellar tried to kill them; they'd very likely be believed!) Oh, and have his sword confiscated after-the-fact.

                        Stellar (or any would-be-baddie) has got a tough road ahead of him to become a "Victorette".

                        -Pete.
                        ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

                        ~ For Love! For Valour!
                        ~ For Honour! For Glory!
                        ~ Onwards to Adventure!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: My thoughts from expirence....

                          Victor does far more than twist fingers.



                          Find out more about broken legs ICly.
                          -Pete.
                          ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

                          ~ For Love! For Valour!
                          ~ For Honour! For Glory!
                          ~ Onwards to Adventure!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            **Roots for Victor**

                            We can spend any amount of time dissecting the in's and out's of any single VP character. We are always going to come up with a favor factor in their court. They are characters with developed histories within Marrach that exist to make our play time more colorful.

                            Victor's been around what...a decade now?

                            I know of some PC's that my character would consider villains with as much or just about as much pull as Victor, and they aren't a decade old.

                            *shrugs* I guess that I see his "favortism" as a story-telling implement, not a meta-gaming issue.

                            "But he doesn't go to jail, and I DO!!"

                            -Then contact his player out of character, and suggest some plot lines where you learn some tricks of the trade (better sword skills, the ~other~ secret entrances, etc.), or get noticed by his benefactor. I bet the ooc forums aren't gonna be able to help you much.

                            I just think that when you notice something extremely special about another character, whether it makes you jealous, irrate, or anything else involving emotion, you should do your best to try and effect it. Either learn from it, deal with the influence in game to the best of your ability...or walk away.

                            -Jenn (loves cookies)
                            ~Isaria~
                            Handmaiden to Her Majesty
                            Acolyte Natura

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              People "root" for Victor to cause conflict, and don't bust his balls the same way another character who would do the same action.
                              I don't know if that is true...I have seen Victor try to cause this courtyard in both the bar and the courtyard and basically be laughed out the door *shrug* of course, thats just me.

                              There may be a certain amount of so called favoritism for the character by oldbies..but i don't think many others feel that way.
                              The trouble with real life is that there is no danger music.

                              The Cable Guy

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