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"Damn You Wee Bull" -- In praise of Victor's unsanctioned duels

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  • Stacy Elizabeth
    replied
    Damnit. Now I'm ever regretful that I couldn't make it last night.

    Well... ... ... I'm not sure what situation you people are talking about, but I know first hand that Victor has and does get into trouble. Remember when he got in that brawl with the Watch? He almost got his head chopped off for that one. Plus - almost got his sword comfiscated.

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  • SPXios
    replied
    Originally posted by Gareth, "People "root" for Victor to cause conflict, and don't bust his balls the same way another character who would do the same action."

    I'd think people would bust on Victor even more since it's what he's there for. Though that's more my personal opinion. I know I've made various jokes about the "size of his sword", typically followed by the word "compensating". I'd be less willing to so freely make such jokes about a PC. Well, slightly less willing.


    Originally posted by Gareth, "Those skill levels were assigned to Victor. It's not like he ICly 'earned' them. He also doesn't have to "work for it" like the rest of us poor slobs turning up to 3-6 practices a week for a year or two just for a half-decent chance to "lose well" to him."

    Technically, he did ICly earn them. He just ICly earned them before the game started. So it was in-character, just not in-game. He also got a sponsor and that sword. Compare how long he's been around and compare him at the start of the game to some of the others who now have been awake that long.

    Most important in looking at his skills though is to consider his entire backstory, which admitedly you probably can't exactly do at this time but you can start to get an idea that his skills are quite justified.


    Originally posted by John, "The point is people act diffrently tword vp charicters often becouse they are vps. This is nothing against the vps themselves."

    To some extend, I'll agree. I've seen people give Evayne lots more respect than she might have gotten if she was a VP. Then again, some of it must be attitude of the PC vs VP. I'm waiting for the chronicle of court before I go too much into detail about my little surprise last night. But it definitly showed to me that everyone is wrong. It's not who you are or how long you are awoken. This in all probability was also just the start. I obviously can't make an example each time someone makes these claims, but I am now positive that there is plenty you can do, you can make an impression, and you can be known within your first 30 days. I'll later be posting more information about the ending to my plot and adventure. I'll go into much more detail.

    Though to quote a message I got last night from Skout, "I was waiting for Auto-Restrain."

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  • Ryot
    replied
    Victor is mah daddy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gareth
    replied
    Snidely Whiplash

    I think, given Nell's own dueling skills, Snidely would be whiplashed.

    Go Avi!



    -Pete.

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  • Twulf
    replied
    Gareth...

    Is this just a plea for Snidely Whiplash to come back and whoop you one? I've got plenty of rope just dangling here waiting...and I have Nell tied firmly to the railroad tracks. She's not going anywhere, do you hear?? I'm going to have her squashed like a bug, and then all of your little hopes and dreams will be dashed and shattered into a million pieces!! Muwahahaha!!



    ~Twulf~
    (aka Snidely Whiplash)
    *curls his mustache and hunches over rubbing his hands together*

    Leave a comment:


  • Sindale
    replied
    I think there are some other factors here that have an effect as well. For example, Stellar has been nothing but bad virtually since the day he awoke. A watchman sees him and immediately thinks 'Do I need to arrest him.' Stellar may be getting more discreet about it all now, but the damage is done.

    On the other hand, Victor has been around a long time, and people do (and should) respect that. Heck, I remember a time when every time Victor showed his nose in public he was gettting arrested, but he seems to have gotten beyond that. and I think that the unofficial rank of time awakened (expressed unconsciously by people treating VP's differently) has of course had an impact on Victor getting away with things.

    There are ways to get around being arrested for unsanctioned duels, it used to happen all the time, just ask any of the older duelists/former duelists. Question is, who is smart enough to work it out, and willing enough to take the risks that come along with it. I can tell you now, there are some out there, and it won't be long before they are noticed.

    Trev

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  • Taci McNeir
    replied
    People "root" for Victor to cause conflict, and don't bust his balls the same way another character who would do the same action.
    I don't know if that is true...I have seen Victor try to cause this courtyard in both the bar and the courtyard and basically be laughed out the door *shrug* of course, thats just me.

    There may be a certain amount of so called favoritism for the character by oldbies..but i don't think many others feel that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • mamacatt
    replied
    **Roots for Victor**

    We can spend any amount of time dissecting the in's and out's of any single VP character. We are always going to come up with a favor factor in their court. They are characters with developed histories within Marrach that exist to make our play time more colorful.

    Victor's been around what...a decade now?

    I know of some PC's that my character would consider villains with as much or just about as much pull as Victor, and they aren't a decade old.

    *shrugs* I guess that I see his "favortism" as a story-telling implement, not a meta-gaming issue.

    "But he doesn't go to jail, and I DO!!"

    -Then contact his player out of character, and suggest some plot lines where you learn some tricks of the trade (better sword skills, the ~other~ secret entrances, etc.), or get noticed by his benefactor. I bet the ooc forums aren't gonna be able to help you much.

    I just think that when you notice something extremely special about another character, whether it makes you jealous, irrate, or anything else involving emotion, you should do your best to try and effect it. Either learn from it, deal with the influence in game to the best of your ability...or walk away.

    -Jenn (loves cookies)

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  • Gareth
    replied
    Re: Re: My thoughts from expirence....

    Victor does far more than twist fingers.



    Find out more about broken legs ICly.
    -Pete.

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  • Gareth
    replied
    Stellar -- 100% with you

    I have seen exactly what Stellar is talking about.

    Is there something Victor can teach these other would-be felons about how to avoid getting thrown in the hole?

    This is my "logical, neutral" mind thinking.

    Meanwhile my Inner Gareth is freaking out -- "There are too many Stellars! There are too many Victors! There are too few Watchpersons! Life is so uncivil! This place is one step away from anarchy!" My Gareth is telling me -- DON'T promote this sort of thing!

    But the present dramatic situation is not very satisfying. It's torturous to the Stellars that have to work waaaaay too frikkin' hard to get anywhere.

    There's usually no incentive for the "baddie" to do anything other than thumb your nose and laugh your ass off at the good guys.

    While entertaining for a while, there's no "result" here. It's just a way to while the hours away while you think of something really cool and villanous to do.

    And it also leaves "good guy" people feeling completely feeble and tired putting up with insults they have no reason in the world to listen or respond to. Even if they respond, there's no "traction" for them.

    What will they get? A repentant Stellar?

    "Gee Missus Crabtree. I really didn't mean it... I'm sorry I hurt your feelings."

    I don't think so.

    So all this does is make things generally uncivil, but doesn't really accomplish much; dramatically, or for in-game world-advancement

    Sure, Stellar and his ilk can get illegal weapons and murder tons of folks! Happens all the time!

    But he doesn't have a ready reason to head in to, or an easy way out from, unsanctioned dueling. Unless he wants to risk getting busted for illegal weapons possession, possible assault-with-a-weapon or murder charges. (Yes, I imagine "honorable people" might just outright lie and say Stellar tried to kill them; they'd very likely be believed!) Oh, and have his sword confiscated after-the-fact.

    Stellar (or any would-be-baddie) has got a tough road ahead of him to become a "Victorette".

    -Pete.

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  • chindora
    replied
    Re: My thoughts from expirence....

    Originally posted by Stellar
    Alright, here's my issue...

    I twisted someones fingers.... 'Assault!'
    Well...as an aside here...ser Guttersnipe twisted the fingers of one of the poorly confused seras who has reverted to a childlike innocence. He did not challenge her to an honorable duel, he just spitefully hurt her. That, and the fact that he would not apologize to the little sera, is why Isadora challenged him. She would have challenged anyone who hurt an innocent like that and so rudely disrespected them.

    :::eyeshift::::

    Victor, do not twist any of the little seras fingers, please.



    Kimberley

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  • Gareth
    replied
    "Getting away with stuff."

    Victor bends the Laws of Marrachian Space-Time. Victor has gotten away with things ICly, but also on a metagame level.

    People "root" for Victor to cause conflict, and don't bust his balls the same way another character who would do the same action.

    What Victor said would have gotten someone else jail time. Period. He was cut slack. Period. You can say it was "ICly," but this is OOCly leaning too. HEAVY leaning.

    Like... Make up excuses to let him off. Period.

    Even if Victor is completely unapologetic. The Watch & Guard know this doesn't often happen for Joe Firstweek.

    We keep hearing about the Watch or Guard "upholding the Law."

    Well... I've seen the law sort of melt around Victor. Both for his benefit (usually) and sometimes against him. Other people also get "let off" -- for example, mutual assaults get ignored. But it's just "sort of a guideline" when he's in the room.



    Not that I'm saying that there can't be "unfair" situations ICly (or even OOCly manufactured) -- but recognize -- it's not a level playing field.

    His skills also "let him get away with it." As someone else, even if they weren't jailed, would either be near dead or dead.

    Those skill levels were assigned to Victor. It's not like he ICly 'earned' them. He also doesn't have to "work for it" like the rest of us poor slobs turning up to 3-6 practices a week for a year or two just for a half-decent chance to "lose well" to him.

    Also, Victor is a VP character, so he's one extra in the roster for the player to play. If he (or someone like him) gets sent to the dungeon -- oh well, you go back to your others.

    You can rotate. It's not like he's a "main" which you feel terrible about if they get busted and sent away for weeks or months.

    I do recognize some VP players do play their VPs either more than their "main PC" characters or practically exclusively play their VPs. Some are very contientious, and I don't mean to disrespect the VP position. Just pointing out the obvious: you're not "stuck" when your VP gets busted.

    The question is -- are there, or can there be player-character "Victorettes" -- little Victors -- who can for causes villainous or virtuous, do similar cool drawn-steel action?

    For the most part -- I haven't seen it. Not from lack of trying.

    If it's done well -- Huzzah! Rousing coolness. Crowd sticks around. People take ICly interest in the outcome.

    If it's done poorly -- "Sigh. Again? Arrrgh. This is so lame. Let's get out of here...."

    There are, of course, people who think any fighting is the latter, and some people who think any fight is better than sitting around doing peaceful crap.

    I'm talking more the bottom line: is it 5-star two-fisted action-adventure, or lame-o channel-changing, walk-out-of-the-movie bad attempts at acting?

    i.e., "art."

    Mostly the system breaks down long before the fighting in the "Oh yeah?" -- "Yeah!" name-calling stage.

    There is also the issue of -- if you do this and fail -- get shut down dramatically either by being ignored or dragged off, or, if you do get it to conflict stage, plain-old get your ass kicked, will people still take you seriously in subsequent actions?

    What if "by thy deeds thou shalt thou be known" turn into "He mouthed off about the Queen. So we killed him"?

    Now you drop a few skill levels. Whoops! Come back. Try again. Whoops! Try again... Whoops!

    I guess people can end up "unskilled" rather quickly that way...

    Again -- Victor -- "fear his leet skills." If someone else is just an asshole with nothing to back them up -- (sigh) Just call the Watch, throw them in the hole for disturbing the peace. Or, kill them.
    So to me, there's an "art" to instigation. But there's also a hard science to it too.

    Now -- Virtuous Instigators.

    How can you take affrontery and not be seen as purely a snob, a jerk or an annoyance?

    How can you engage people in trying to go through with a duel before people roll their eyes and say, "It's just not worth it."

    Again -- Victor's got that big damn sword and those skills to back up his action. People are drawn to challenge him because he's Mount Everest. He's the impossible Vegas Jackpot you're trying to win.
    What if you're just a mousie imitation, would-be, Senior Apprentice Cut Victor-wannabe?

    You don't get far in this world.

    1) Tough to get lessons.

    2) Tough to get a sword.

    3) Tough to get people to challenge you.

    4) Tough to not just get tossed in the dungeon.

    Yes, yes yes. I know. These people can join the Watch or the Duelists. Sometimes.

    Then, it's an uneasy fit for people who aren't flaming assholes to get along with them. All the metagame breaks these "uncivil" members get just to allow them to play their characters and be in the same scene with other people feel terribly unnatural. It causes attrition of other less caustic players -- don't doubt that! A smart person who sees that things are being tweaked just to let someone else "fit in" sees the inherent unfairness and leaves. They don't need this grief. It causes headaches OOCly.

    i.e., you let the bad apples spoil the bunch. To let one or two people "have fun," you cheese the fun of the vast majority.

    I'm not asking for Care Bear lovey-dovey. I'm talking about keeping people from all up and quitting, ICly or OOCly.

    It's why I thought/think a "virtuous" unsanctioned dueling path might be more interesting and productive for a Player Character point-of-view. (Personal opinion.)

    i.e., "two goods" fighting each other, versus an "uncivil jerk" vs. "long-suffering everyone elses."

    It works for Victor. I don't know how many others can actually walk this path without his advantages, and make it fun and interesting for other people to be around. Maybe someone else can prove me wrong.

    There does finally seem to be sufficient numbers of skillful teachers with dubious morals and ethics out there, now after 2 years. Some are taking on or toying with the idea of proteges.

    Maybe there can be that "bad dojo" on the other side of town like you see in martial arts movies?

    I don't think the Watch or the Duelists want to think of themselves as the "bad dojo". They might have their bad sides, or still harbor "bad apples," or may "turn bad " completely in days to come. But that would be a thematic change when the world decides that one of the Virtues -- "Law" or "Honor" was hollow and empty.

    All of these are my ramblings on the matter. Victor did good. These are the challenges for someone else who wants to have compelling -- not repelling -- unsanctioned dueling drama.

    And before y'all start yelling, you know what I mean even if you don't agree. Reasoned, progressive feedback is desired and encouraged.

    -Pete.

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  • Stellar
    replied
    My thoughts from expirence....

    Alright, here's my issue.

    NPC character bust out sword, duels so and so and gets off.... Even if they are sponcered to have this weapon, it's perfectly fine for them to just bust out and duel whenever they want....

    Now... if I busted out any weapon of any sort even if I was sponcered, I bet I would still spend a few day in the dungeons and have my weapon removed from my person until it was 'cleared' that I was allowed to have it... then again, I would probably serve time for 'public distrubance' why... cause people LOOK for things to bust me for.

    I twisted someones fingers.... 'Assault!'
    I bring a beer into a practice.... 'Disturbing the public!'

    And I know I bring this on myself... it's how I play my character. People have paged me or have told me to just apologize and everything will be fine and I'll be able to get lessons and so forth... but that's not how I play my character... why break his persona cause I want something for him OOCly.

    You know what... I've gotten way off topic here... as I usually do.

    Anyways, my point is, if Stellar would have done any of these things... he would be locked away for a very long time. And I'm not saying it's a PC vs VP issue, but it does alter decisions in some players eyes.

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  • John
    replied
    Originally posted by SPXios
    Perhaps I miss what exactly VPs are getting away with that a PC couldn't. Victor spends much time in the dungeon for his actions.

    Much more than time I would say is connections. VP A might only be 11th link, but due to who they work for, they pretty much can get away with murder. Meanwhile, PC B is a courtier bust hasn't really established such a strong sponsor. In fact we've a few courtiers who not only don't have a sponsor, but really don't have any type of power base to work from.

    It's not who you are, it's who you know.

    Though also as was pointed out in one of the articles, "By your deeds are you known."
    I see I was unclear, and the flip side comment was that when a vp gets into more trouble they dont leave game, becouse they are a vp..(thats a good thing)
    But often we have players (Note.. this is not the VP's fault.. its the player perception) who will hang on the every word of a low ranked vp. bow to them, help them.. RP with them ect.. but who still nod when a PC of higher rank comes into the room. Now a lot of this is player fault. The pc's with high rank and use it as much as the VPs. (aka I dont think I have seen darvius have anyone flogged yet, however just about every vp and sp knight who has set foot in the OB has had someone flogged )
    The point is people act diffrently tword vp charicters often becouse they are vps. This is nothing against the vps themselves.

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  • SPXios
    replied
    Originally posted by John
    Now I do like victor, but from dungen time alone, if he was a pc he prob would have quit so.. there is a flip side to see.
    Perhaps I miss what exactly VPs are getting away with that a PC couldn't. Victor spends much time in the dungeon for his actions.

    Much more than time I would say is connections. VP A might only be 11th link, but due to who they work for, they pretty much can get away with murder. Meanwhile, PC B is a courtier bust hasn't really established such a strong sponsor. In fact we've a few courtiers who not only don't have a sponsor, but really don't have any type of power base to work from.

    It's not who you are, it's who you know.

    Though also as was pointed out in one of the articles, "By your deeds are you known."

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