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  • #16
    Originally posted by Kurzon View Post

    It's1 for a loss, 2 for a win I believe, though that figure is for Duel2 only, not MCombat. Because of how quickly Duel2 matches go compared to MCombat (rarely longer than 60 seconds) my observations have been that even new characters who frequently lose their matches aren't seeming to have any difficulty reaching their daily cap of 10pts per day. Well, at least when Duel2 was the primary combat system being used. That's changed with the favouritism now shown towards MCombat, which is a fairly recent development in truth.

    CombatXP for MCombat is awarded based on the length of the match. IIRC it was at a rate of +1xp per combat round after the 2nd or 3rd round, which means you're getting a handful per fight (easily capping out your daily limit in a single fight during some of the longer 10-round-plus team battles).

    I've honestly never seen anyone participate in more than three matches even during longer practices so losing 10 duels to cap seems excessive imho. I feel like three is the magic number with the possibility of the final being a long Mcombat melee at the end. I do stand by the fact that this will adversely affect sorcerers and people with very low fatigue and slow their learning quite a bit. My character almost never makes it past the third round in an MCombat, even if other characters are pulling punches. The fatigue nerf is just too severe to allow it to happen.

    Like I said, I'm Bias because of my characters condition, but as difficult as it already is for her to progress I hate to put another nail in the coffin of her ever being capable in a spar. To put it this way, she's been participating for months and months, she never wins, I have a total of 19 combat XP. She goes to 2-3 practices a week and fights as often as she can. As she's one of the only "Sorcerers" who participates regularly this is mostly my cross to bear but I just wanted to throw it out there that it's a bit discouraging.

    I'm worried an unintentional consequence of this system will basically lock the character out of progressing and do so to sorcerers with the same fatigue nerf. If that is intended I'll accept it however.

    EDIT: I believe a good way to solve this issue and make it feel more fair is to give even XP for participation across the board. Duels are 2, win or lose. Mcombat gives flat XP with a bonus for each extra combatant added in so large melees that take a substantial amount of time give larger rewards. I'd like to see the sacred cow of "You win, so you get more" slaughtered.
    Last edited by Kona; 09-11-2019, 11:04 AM.

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    • #17
      I think the points are fine as they are. If you do not win time after time, you will work harder to get to the point where you do win.

      Taite does not win. Newly awakened has whooped her. She has plenty of skills and has worked to get these up. The only people she can manage to go against and win are sorcerers or if she wins completely by accident. So, you will not be seeing her apply for any squire positions anytime soon.

      Taite has never been a 2.0 kinda gal. Knowing what the moves are and knowing exactly at what second do these skills need to be used. Yeah, well, I"m not that great at timing in any regard. The structure is different in MCombat, and she can put in a few hits before she's KO'd. She may not win, but the potential for her has been raised, even if she's not really that good at it.

      If she didn't have a million other things going on, she'd be able to sit and work on her dueling skills, but to find that moment when she's free or is 'bored' has been relatively rare as of late.

      As for the 'failed binding' I believe it may be a hindrance, but definitely not a complete brick in the wall to keep you from doing what you want to do. She may be 'challenged' with certain aspects of her life, but who knows. Maybe, she'll wake up one day with her room completely upside down, and she's freaking out as she's holding on for dear life onto her bed, and it was her who made it happen.

      Though the idea is improbable, it is not completely impossible.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Taite View Post
        I think the points are fine as they are. If you do not win time after time, you will work harder to get to the point where you do win.
        .
        The problem is the points are needed to get lessons Taite. If a character cannot win they will amass points very very slowly as I've shown with my previous post.

        Let me reiterate, my character has been going to all of these practice for around three months and I've amassed as many XP as someone could in two days if they would win and really went at it at a couple practices. I don't think it's a crazy argument to say that's unfair. Also just to throw it out there 3 of her points are from the Trials. So in roughly 3 months of going and participating in every practice I've managed to get 16 XP from them.

        Since I have to have those for lessons it further stunts the growth of a character who is stunted already. Social points are gained from participation, why aren't combat XP? I don't think the intention here is to harm characters who are already in a disadvantageous position. It's discouraging enough to know you'll never win, you don't also need to know you'll never get better because there will be nights where you gain no XP from a practice. I and anyone else in similar circumstances should not take three times as long to grow my character. Only so many practice are available and we all take turns, there is only so much you can do to get XP and I'm doing it.

        Is there a problem with rewarding participation over winning? How does winning even help you learn? If Adahn comes in and destroys Kona in a single hit did he learn more than her? Did he even learn anything at all?

        There are Mcombat matches where my character gains 0 XP Taite. Is that fair? I'd say no. Not just because I'm playing her either. It's not fair to anyone. If it were you in that position I'd be saying the same thing instead of telling you to work harder than me and invest more of your time than I do.

        At the end of the day if my character gets as much XP for losing as you do for winning it doesn't hurt you any. I say we try to keep people participating.

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        • #19
          I am done fighting with you on here and in the pages over what is fair or what isn't fair. I have been working with Kona trying to keep her head up and think of positive things and trying to keep her happy. I keep trying to tell her there is a realm of possibilities out there, but Kona is focused on the sword.

          Good for you. You go, girl!

          However, just because I have a different opinion than you, doesn't mean you can blow up my pages trying to get me to think differently.

          The thing is, this is a game where some people are good at some things and other people are good at other things. Not everyone has the same level of experience at this or that. For those that are not as good at learning something as another, it just means you have to put in a little more effort than everyone else if that is what you truly want. Why can't you find someone who will work with you outside of practice? Maybe give you some pointers and let you get some extra hits in to practice? You don't have to be at a practice to get extra training. Why not seek someone who will work with you to gain those extra points so you can work on your lessons? Instead of pulling the 'woe is me' card, do something about it. Put forth the extra work. Ask someone to tutor you because THIS is what you want, and you will do whatever you can to get it. Kona's determination to learn the sword will get you noticed faster.
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          • #20
            Taite

            I'm really not trying to fight with you about this either.

            I'm not pulling a "woe is me" I'm using my character and my experience as an example of how this is mechanically going to affect both myself and a larger portion of the player base (sorcerers). Perhaps it's intentional, perhaps it's not. I'm suggesting reasonable mechanical changes to help further peoples participation in parts of the game instead of making them feel like it's not worth it to try or making an uphill battle that much more difficult for them.

            Also for the record. Kona has been working with people outside of practices, as well as encouraging martial characters to have them every chance she gets. This conversation is not about my character despite me using her as an example. This is about making the game fun and enjoyable for everyone. We're all trying to RP and have a good time.

            Lets try and stay on the topics of mechanics and how to better everyone's game experience instead of just telling me to work hard though, please.

            Also my apologies for speaking with you more in depth through pages. I was trying to clarify your statements and we talked a lot more than I had anticipated.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kona View Post
              I've honestly never seen anyone participate in more than three matches even during longer practices so losing 10 duels to cap seems excessive imho. I feel like three is the magic number with the possibility of the final being a long Mcombat melee at the end. I do stand by the fact that this will adversely affect sorcerers and people with very low fatigue and slow their learning quite a bit. My character almost never makes it past the third round in an MCombat, even if other characters are pulling punches. The fatigue nerf is just too severe to allow it to happen.

              Like I said, I'm Bias because of my characters condition, but as difficult as it already is for her to progress I hate to put another nail in the coffin of her ever being capable in a spar. To put it this way, she's been participating for months and months, she never wins, I have a total of 19 combat XP. She goes to 2-3 practices a week and fights as often as she can. As she's one of the only "Sorcerers" who participates regularly this is mostly my cross to bear but I just wanted to throw it out there that it's a bit discouraging.
              I feel I should reiterate from my last post; MCombat isn't giving anyone CombatXP right now, whether they win or lose. It's broken. It's on my to-fix list.

              Thus, the low income of CombatXP right now can be attributed to the fact that MCombat has (quite recently) succeeded Duel2 as the preferred combat system despite the fact that it isn't giving any CombatXP for those matches. When it was giving CombatXP, it was giving it based on how long a match went, not whether one wins or loses, and those matches were usually going on long enough that only a couple fights were required to meet your daily quota win or lose.

              Now, all of this said, both CombatXP and dueling fatigue are irrelevant to sorcerers.

              Sorcerers are intended to use willpower instead of fatigue to deflect attacks. Willpower is determined by Sorcery skills, not Dueling skills, and Sorcery lessons will require Social Points to pass, not CombatXP.

              All of this is to say, I think, that I follow your concerns, and they've mostly already been factored in to the new teaching system when it comes out.
              StoryHost Kurzon
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              • #22
                Originally posted by Kurzon View Post


                All of this is to say, I think, that I follow your concerns, and they've mostly already been factored in to the new teaching system when it comes out.
                Much appreciated. Thank you.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kurzon View Post

                  Now, all of this said, both CombatXP and dueling fatigue are irrelevant to sorcerers.
                  I would agree though probably for a different reason. Physical combat is simply something I have never had to be involved with. Never had even a practice duel. There are ways to build your character that do not involve fighting with a sword.

                  Before everyone panics about specific points, remember that this is Kurzon designing this. Not say ... me I would say he always has been very good at considering many different factors is trying to keep a system or event balanced. Once it is active, perhaps then we can see if it feels a little off and needs any tweaking.

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                  • #24
                    Been trying to see how its working out. With the combination of it being harder to find people, this is ... aggravating me so far, but i'm hoping its actually worth it when the system is released for teaching.

                    It will be tough on players who cant log in at peak times too. Such people will end up just quitting if limited by a game mechanic in the mornings, and cant get a lesson on the weekend when they can play at a more active time.



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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aptaliesin View Post
                      It will be tough on players who cant log in at peak times too. Such people will end up just quitting if limited by a game mechanic in the mornings, and cant get a lesson on the weekend when they can play at a more active time.
                      I don't think the existing teaching system is going anywhere. In one of Kurzon's posts on here he said he doesn't want to take away the RP of teaching/learning and replace it with someone sitting alone in their room all day, every day. I could be interpreting it the wrong way, but I think the idea of social points is to supplement lessons in 2 ways:
                      1. New Character wants to become a Jeweler; they go to Lilly to learn because the difference between their two levels works in the new characters favor to advance much faster. Lilly's player is sick one day and misses their scheduled lesson. Instead of New Character going "Whelp, no point in playing today." Which some characters seem to do, they now have the option to use some of their social points for their own "research" if they so choose. They can still be online and they can even do it on a public space (I hope) so they have the ability to gain social points while they're burning them.
                      2. Once we all reach that inevitable ceiling of leveling up where either the progression slows to a crawl or our teachers have nothing left to teach us, social points will really start to shine. It allows a direct reward for roleplaying that you can put right into improving your character. You no longer have to find an IC way to explain why your character hasn't gotten any better, when in reality they met the fantasy guidelines.
                      I get what you're saying, when it's slow and you start to *need* Social points, it'll be frustrating, but it appears to me that you'll still be able to receive the benefits from the others who are still leveling from getting their social points by being online at the "prime times".

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Atmos View Post
                        [*]New Character wants to become a Jeweler; they go to Lilly to learn because the difference between their two levels works in the new characters favor to advance much faster. Lilly's player is sick one day and misses their scheduled lesson. Instead of New Character going "Whelp, no point in playing today." Which some characters seem to do, they now have the option to use some of their social points for their own "research" if they so choose. They can still be online and they can even do it on a public space (I hope) so they have the ability to gain social points while they're burning them.
                        I was under the impression that your trainer's lessons basically just allowed you to spend your social points into your skills. Higher level skills from a teacher just allow them to let you spend more of your social points during a lesson. Once you get to the pass point you move up instead of it being a random roll.

                        I also thought the research command was only for sorcery spell creation and we had no intention of allowing people to distribute their social points by themselves like what you're talking about.

                        I may have misunderstood though.

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