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New Game Feature: Social Points

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  • Atmos
    replied
    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    I was under the impression that your trainer's lessons basically just allowed you to spend your social points into your skills. Higher level skills from a teacher just allow them to let you spend more of your social points during a lesson. Once you get to the pass point you move up instead of it being a random roll.
    That could very well be the case, I interpreted it to mean that you can still learn the normal way as we always have but you have the option to supplement your learnings with social points. Hopefully once this officially rolls out there will be clear @help or guidance on that.

    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    I also thought the research command was only for sorcery spell creation and we had no intention of allowing people to distribute their social points by themselves like what you're talking about.
    I should have been more specific in the given scenario, when I used "research" I pictured it being an IC situation of someone using SP(social points) to go from Novice Jeweling to Apprentice Jeweling and to justify the bump, they can literally just say, "I spent the afternoon researching my notes on gems, that explains why I can make nicer stuff now." I wasn't even really thinking of the @research command when I wrote it but it could be anything, "I researched, studied, practiced, etc. all afternoon."

    Hope that clears up what I meant.
    Last edited by Atmos; 09-16-2019, 01:26 PM. Reason: grammar and punctuation

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  • Kona
    replied
    Originally posted by Atmos View Post
    [*]New Character wants to become a Jeweler; they go to Lilly to learn because the difference between their two levels works in the new characters favor to advance much faster. Lilly's player is sick one day and misses their scheduled lesson. Instead of New Character going "Whelp, no point in playing today." Which some characters seem to do, they now have the option to use some of their social points for their own "research" if they so choose. They can still be online and they can even do it on a public space (I hope) so they have the ability to gain social points while they're burning them.
    I was under the impression that your trainer's lessons basically just allowed you to spend your social points into your skills. Higher level skills from a teacher just allow them to let you spend more of your social points during a lesson. Once you get to the pass point you move up instead of it being a random roll.

    I also thought the research command was only for sorcery spell creation and we had no intention of allowing people to distribute their social points by themselves like what you're talking about.

    I may have misunderstood though.

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  • Atmos
    replied
    Originally posted by Aptaliesin View Post
    It will be tough on players who cant log in at peak times too. Such people will end up just quitting if limited by a game mechanic in the mornings, and cant get a lesson on the weekend when they can play at a more active time.
    I don't think the existing teaching system is going anywhere. In one of Kurzon's posts on here he said he doesn't want to take away the RP of teaching/learning and replace it with someone sitting alone in their room all day, every day. I could be interpreting it the wrong way, but I think the idea of social points is to supplement lessons in 2 ways:
    1. New Character wants to become a Jeweler; they go to Lilly to learn because the difference between their two levels works in the new characters favor to advance much faster. Lilly's player is sick one day and misses their scheduled lesson. Instead of New Character going "Whelp, no point in playing today." Which some characters seem to do, they now have the option to use some of their social points for their own "research" if they so choose. They can still be online and they can even do it on a public space (I hope) so they have the ability to gain social points while they're burning them.
    2. Once we all reach that inevitable ceiling of leveling up where either the progression slows to a crawl or our teachers have nothing left to teach us, social points will really start to shine. It allows a direct reward for roleplaying that you can put right into improving your character. You no longer have to find an IC way to explain why your character hasn't gotten any better, when in reality they met the fantasy guidelines.
    I get what you're saying, when it's slow and you start to *need* Social points, it'll be frustrating, but it appears to me that you'll still be able to receive the benefits from the others who are still leveling from getting their social points by being online at the "prime times".

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  • Aptaliesin
    replied
    Been trying to see how its working out. With the combination of it being harder to find people, this is ... aggravating me so far, but i'm hoping its actually worth it when the system is released for teaching.

    It will be tough on players who cant log in at peak times too. Such people will end up just quitting if limited by a game mechanic in the mornings, and cant get a lesson on the weekend when they can play at a more active time.



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  • Ra'Dorcha
    replied
    Originally posted by Kurzon View Post

    Now, all of this said, both CombatXP and dueling fatigue are irrelevant to sorcerers.
    I would agree though probably for a different reason. Physical combat is simply something I have never had to be involved with. Never had even a practice duel. There are ways to build your character that do not involve fighting with a sword.

    Before everyone panics about specific points, remember that this is Kurzon designing this. Not say ... me I would say he always has been very good at considering many different factors is trying to keep a system or event balanced. Once it is active, perhaps then we can see if it feels a little off and needs any tweaking.

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  • Kona
    replied
    Originally posted by Kurzon View Post


    All of this is to say, I think, that I follow your concerns, and they've mostly already been factored in to the new teaching system when it comes out.
    Much appreciated. Thank you.

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  • Kurzon
    replied
    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    I've honestly never seen anyone participate in more than three matches even during longer practices so losing 10 duels to cap seems excessive imho. I feel like three is the magic number with the possibility of the final being a long Mcombat melee at the end. I do stand by the fact that this will adversely affect sorcerers and people with very low fatigue and slow their learning quite a bit. My character almost never makes it past the third round in an MCombat, even if other characters are pulling punches. The fatigue nerf is just too severe to allow it to happen.

    Like I said, I'm Bias because of my characters condition, but as difficult as it already is for her to progress I hate to put another nail in the coffin of her ever being capable in a spar. To put it this way, she's been participating for months and months, she never wins, I have a total of 19 combat XP. She goes to 2-3 practices a week and fights as often as she can. As she's one of the only "Sorcerers" who participates regularly this is mostly my cross to bear but I just wanted to throw it out there that it's a bit discouraging.
    I feel I should reiterate from my last post; MCombat isn't giving anyone CombatXP right now, whether they win or lose. It's broken. It's on my to-fix list.

    Thus, the low income of CombatXP right now can be attributed to the fact that MCombat has (quite recently) succeeded Duel2 as the preferred combat system despite the fact that it isn't giving any CombatXP for those matches. When it was giving CombatXP, it was giving it based on how long a match went, not whether one wins or loses, and those matches were usually going on long enough that only a couple fights were required to meet your daily quota win or lose.

    Now, all of this said, both CombatXP and dueling fatigue are irrelevant to sorcerers.

    Sorcerers are intended to use willpower instead of fatigue to deflect attacks. Willpower is determined by Sorcery skills, not Dueling skills, and Sorcery lessons will require Social Points to pass, not CombatXP.

    All of this is to say, I think, that I follow your concerns, and they've mostly already been factored in to the new teaching system when it comes out.

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  • Kona
    replied
    Taite

    I'm really not trying to fight with you about this either.

    I'm not pulling a "woe is me" I'm using my character and my experience as an example of how this is mechanically going to affect both myself and a larger portion of the player base (sorcerers). Perhaps it's intentional, perhaps it's not. I'm suggesting reasonable mechanical changes to help further peoples participation in parts of the game instead of making them feel like it's not worth it to try or making an uphill battle that much more difficult for them.

    Also for the record. Kona has been working with people outside of practices, as well as encouraging martial characters to have them every chance she gets. This conversation is not about my character despite me using her as an example. This is about making the game fun and enjoyable for everyone. We're all trying to RP and have a good time.

    Lets try and stay on the topics of mechanics and how to better everyone's game experience instead of just telling me to work hard though, please.

    Also my apologies for speaking with you more in depth through pages. I was trying to clarify your statements and we talked a lot more than I had anticipated.

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  • Taite
    replied
    I am done fighting with you on here and in the pages over what is fair or what isn't fair. I have been working with Kona trying to keep her head up and think of positive things and trying to keep her happy. I keep trying to tell her there is a realm of possibilities out there, but Kona is focused on the sword.

    Good for you. You go, girl!

    However, just because I have a different opinion than you, doesn't mean you can blow up my pages trying to get me to think differently.

    The thing is, this is a game where some people are good at some things and other people are good at other things. Not everyone has the same level of experience at this or that. For those that are not as good at learning something as another, it just means you have to put in a little more effort than everyone else if that is what you truly want. Why can't you find someone who will work with you outside of practice? Maybe give you some pointers and let you get some extra hits in to practice? You don't have to be at a practice to get extra training. Why not seek someone who will work with you to gain those extra points so you can work on your lessons? Instead of pulling the 'woe is me' card, do something about it. Put forth the extra work. Ask someone to tutor you because THIS is what you want, and you will do whatever you can to get it. Kona's determination to learn the sword will get you noticed faster.

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  • Kona
    replied
    Originally posted by Taite View Post
    I think the points are fine as they are. If you do not win time after time, you will work harder to get to the point where you do win.
    .
    The problem is the points are needed to get lessons Taite. If a character cannot win they will amass points very very slowly as I've shown with my previous post.

    Let me reiterate, my character has been going to all of these practice for around three months and I've amassed as many XP as someone could in two days if they would win and really went at it at a couple practices. I don't think it's a crazy argument to say that's unfair. Also just to throw it out there 3 of her points are from the Trials. So in roughly 3 months of going and participating in every practice I've managed to get 16 XP from them.

    Since I have to have those for lessons it further stunts the growth of a character who is stunted already. Social points are gained from participation, why aren't combat XP? I don't think the intention here is to harm characters who are already in a disadvantageous position. It's discouraging enough to know you'll never win, you don't also need to know you'll never get better because there will be nights where you gain no XP from a practice. I and anyone else in similar circumstances should not take three times as long to grow my character. Only so many practice are available and we all take turns, there is only so much you can do to get XP and I'm doing it.

    Is there a problem with rewarding participation over winning? How does winning even help you learn? If Adahn comes in and destroys Kona in a single hit did he learn more than her? Did he even learn anything at all?

    There are Mcombat matches where my character gains 0 XP Taite. Is that fair? I'd say no. Not just because I'm playing her either. It's not fair to anyone. If it were you in that position I'd be saying the same thing instead of telling you to work harder than me and invest more of your time than I do.

    At the end of the day if my character gets as much XP for losing as you do for winning it doesn't hurt you any. I say we try to keep people participating.

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  • Taite
    replied
    I think the points are fine as they are. If you do not win time after time, you will work harder to get to the point where you do win.

    Taite does not win. Newly awakened has whooped her. She has plenty of skills and has worked to get these up. The only people she can manage to go against and win are sorcerers or if she wins completely by accident. So, you will not be seeing her apply for any squire positions anytime soon.

    Taite has never been a 2.0 kinda gal. Knowing what the moves are and knowing exactly at what second do these skills need to be used. Yeah, well, I"m not that great at timing in any regard. The structure is different in MCombat, and she can put in a few hits before she's KO'd. She may not win, but the potential for her has been raised, even if she's not really that good at it.

    If she didn't have a million other things going on, she'd be able to sit and work on her dueling skills, but to find that moment when she's free or is 'bored' has been relatively rare as of late.

    As for the 'failed binding' I believe it may be a hindrance, but definitely not a complete brick in the wall to keep you from doing what you want to do. She may be 'challenged' with certain aspects of her life, but who knows. Maybe, she'll wake up one day with her room completely upside down, and she's freaking out as she's holding on for dear life onto her bed, and it was her who made it happen.

    Though the idea is improbable, it is not completely impossible.

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  • Kona
    replied
    Originally posted by Kurzon View Post

    It's1 for a loss, 2 for a win I believe, though that figure is for Duel2 only, not MCombat. Because of how quickly Duel2 matches go compared to MCombat (rarely longer than 60 seconds) my observations have been that even new characters who frequently lose their matches aren't seeming to have any difficulty reaching their daily cap of 10pts per day. Well, at least when Duel2 was the primary combat system being used. That's changed with the favouritism now shown towards MCombat, which is a fairly recent development in truth.

    CombatXP for MCombat is awarded based on the length of the match. IIRC it was at a rate of +1xp per combat round after the 2nd or 3rd round, which means you're getting a handful per fight (easily capping out your daily limit in a single fight during some of the longer 10-round-plus team battles).

    I've honestly never seen anyone participate in more than three matches even during longer practices so losing 10 duels to cap seems excessive imho. I feel like three is the magic number with the possibility of the final being a long Mcombat melee at the end. I do stand by the fact that this will adversely affect sorcerers and people with very low fatigue and slow their learning quite a bit. My character almost never makes it past the third round in an MCombat, even if other characters are pulling punches. The fatigue nerf is just too severe to allow it to happen.

    Like I said, I'm Bias because of my characters condition, but as difficult as it already is for her to progress I hate to put another nail in the coffin of her ever being capable in a spar. To put it this way, she's been participating for months and months, she never wins, I have a total of 19 combat XP. She goes to 2-3 practices a week and fights as often as she can. As she's one of the only "Sorcerers" who participates regularly this is mostly my cross to bear but I just wanted to throw it out there that it's a bit discouraging.

    I'm worried an unintentional consequence of this system will basically lock the character out of progressing and do so to sorcerers with the same fatigue nerf. If that is intended I'll accept it however.

    EDIT: I believe a good way to solve this issue and make it feel more fair is to give even XP for participation across the board. Duels are 2, win or lose. Mcombat gives flat XP with a bonus for each extra combatant added in so large melees that take a substantial amount of time give larger rewards. I'd like to see the sacred cow of "You win, so you get more" slaughtered.
    Last edited by Kona; 09-11-2019, 11:04 AM.

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  • Kurzon
    replied
    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    That reminds me. I'd really like to see some way to further skills by ourselves. Of course something like that poses a problem with training guidelines and people having the ability to over-train themselves. Even if it is implemented at a snails pace and sucks up a boat-load of social points or combat xp, It would be nice, honestly it should probably be so astronomically priced that you'd think twice about using it.

    I just think it would be cool if the guidelines were the point where a trainer can't move you past without you ranking up but you could be able to advance beyond them with serious dedication and personal study, add a bit more realism to the game and give us a fall back for when trainers go to rest for long periods without needing staff involvement.
    In a social RP game I don't want to remove one of the more common social incentives in the game by allowing people to raise their skills sitting alone in their bedroom. As it stands we have a number of minor systems that allow you to advance/progress without needing other people present (harvesting skills, Social Points, CombatXP by fighting MCombat CNPCs) and don't want to lean too heavily in that direction? That aside, we also need some kind of check-and-balance system to preserve rarer skills or anyone will be able to learn to Grandmaster anything.

    Martial guidelines are going to be removed, however, and replaced with hard coded limitations. I've never, ever liked them, they were always an IC solution to an OOC problem, and as a solution it neither made much sense ICly (imagine D'Artagnan couldn't rival the other musketeers with a sword because his low rank... somehow magically prevented him from improving) nor has it proven very effective at actually achieving what it was intended to do anyway (if you can still get within guidelines to learn Sr Art level dueling skills within a few months of creating a char, why bother having the guidelines to begin with).

    The hard coded system will essentially 'force' slow progression by limiting the amount of CombatXP you can get per day, and then requiring increasingly high amounts of CombatXP for higher level sword skills. It may therefore take you a few months of training to advance one martial skill from Artisan to Senior Artisan. No magic barrier, strange IC law or other external factor will be preventing your character, storywise, from learning to the highest levels they can, save their own innate abilities. There are certain additional restrictions and choices to be made with regards to the very highest skill levels. One of them is Mastery Points, required to unlock Master+ level skills, these are less casually obtained than regular CombatXP or Social Points and are obtained by certain in-game feats (winning a big tourney, defeating a powerful plot enemy in MCombat, etc), the other is 'specialization' which will automatically unlock the higher tiers of certain skill sets depending on whether you've chosen to specialize as a fighter, crafter or scholar.

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  • Kurzon
    replied
    Originally posted by Ra'Dorcha View Post
    See, half the time I play, I forget about @kudos. There are times when I'm in a really good scene and will remember to give someone their @kudos. When you are gaining social points, reminding those of us that keep forgetting about that command would be helpful.
    Well, you get a notification whenever you receive a social point (something I need to create a toggle for actually). Maybe seeing the point gain could be used as its own @kudos reminder when you see it?

    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    Sounds great! Do we have an idea of how much XP it will take to qualify for a lesson?
    It won't quite work like that. 1xp will be enough to 'qualify for a lesson', but then it only puts 1xp towards leveling up that skill. I have an idea of how much xp it will take to pass a lesson, but that figure varies widely depending on the skill in question and the level of that skill (you can expect, for example, martial skills to take much longer to raise than Northern).

    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    My only concern is that with our current CombatXP system I believe you get less XP for losing a match? I may be wrong, but I thought it was something like 1 for a loss and 3 for a win.
    It's1 for a loss, 2 for a win I believe, though that figure is for Duel2 only, not MCombat. Because of how quickly Duel2 matches go compared to MCombat (rarely longer than 60 seconds) my observations have been that even new characters who frequently lose their matches aren't seeming to have any difficulty reaching their daily cap of 10pts per day. Well, at least when Duel2 was the primary combat system being used. That's changed with the favouritism now shown towards MCombat, which is a fairly recent development in truth.

    CombatXP for MCombat is awarded based on the length of the match. IIRC it was at a rate of +1xp per combat round after the 2nd or 3rd round, which means you're getting a handful per fight (easily capping out your daily limit in a single fight during some of the longer 10-round-plus team battles).


    Originally posted by PaladinHeart View Post
    I love the social points idea! I'm wondering, though; it seems to me that one can only get combat xp from duel2.0. I would love it if one could also get combat xp from Mcombat!
    There is an existing CombatXP script built into MCombat already, in fact (see above!). I had to disable it because for some reason it was giving people bizarre amounts of CombatXP while also not respecting the daily cap (someone got a few months worth of CombatXP in one fight). This is on my list of things to fix.

    Originally posted by Kona View Post
    Since we seem to be keeping the RNG lesson pass element in the game...
    We're not.

    Removing RNG from the skill system is one of the primary goals of the new teaching system.


    Eg; You require maybe 100cxp to learn Journeyman Cut (example figure). You have 35cxp set aside from dueling or wherever. Your teacher, based on his Apprentice Teaching skill, may only be able to teach you 25pts of your cxp per day. You already have 50cxp pts put towards your Journeyman Cut from earlier lessons, so today's lesson will bring you to 75/100cxp, and leaving you with 10pts of cxp in your pool for another martial lesson tomorrow. Earn another 15 to bring yourself up to 25, and tomorrow's lesson from the same teacher will pass you.

    Originally posted by Gareth View Post
    Considering my IB character gets, like, no lessons in anything anyway except once in a blue moon, and that more than half-the-time he is logged in he is basically sitting alone idle in a room waiting for anyone else to log in, I have to say that this wasn't really thought through for pragmatic effect.
    Hey Pete. Certainly it's true that the Inner Bailey tends to be less populated and active than the Outer. I'm not sure however that I see why this update would exacerbate that dilemma as opposed to helping alleviate it? At least, from where I'm sitting, the theory and intention behind this update is that it will cause more people to be out RPing in the Inner in pursuit of their daily allotment of points, during which they'll find people like Pete sitting out in public doing the same?

    Originally posted by Gareth View Post
    To me, it kind of is an 'extrovert incentive.' If you are here hobnobbing but actually idling in the Refectory, that 'counts' for RP. But if you spend a few bells writing a book for a plot device, that doesn't. Somewhat a perverse incentive.
    There are certain safeguards to prevent people trying to accumulate points while not really RPing. Specifically, someone has to remain particularly unidle during RP in order to obtain their points as the script can (and does) check down-to-the-second how long you've gone since your last emit, and if you overstep a certain threshold, you don't get any points.

    Sure, it's not a perfect system, it can be circumvented if someone really wanted. In theory, someone could sit in the Refectory typing 'touch my nose' every minute or so - while also ignoring people who find them in that public room and try to interact with them, and thusly cheat the system... but if someone's putting that much effort into avoiding roleplay, I think perhaps it speaks to a deeper issue with how that person is philosophically approaching the game to begin with, and is perhaps a problem with that player not the system?

    However you bring up an excellent point; I'm all for exploring additional means of obtaining Social Points. Incidentally, one of Staff's goals right now is to push and encourage player-run plots, so I think it would be a great idea to tie these in together. I see no reason why we can't offer Staff issued Social Points to players who write and carry out their own plot stories. Some form of @command would have to be issued to allow players to 'submit' for the points, and we'd need some kind of standardized set of rules around this (what qualifies as a 'player run plot', does this have to be submitted before or after carrying it out, who qualifies for the extra points, etc).


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  • Taite
    replied
    I think this is a good idea.

    This promotes role play. It helps the castle become more active, and we all know the incentive for people logging on each day. Without people, there would be no game. In the long run, how do we make things more interesting to keep people coming back?

    I do not know if anyone else has noticed, but there are days when there is barely anyone about. Maybe a few people in the Inner Bailey, but I'm the OB resident. Of course, conversation can be brought to the bridge to include me, but if they did not know I was awake, how would they know I needed company?

    Sadly, I have run into this problem many times.

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