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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aratan View Post
    I really like the proposed mechanics for teaching and learning, and I like the concept of specialization, and I think the way the martial limits are set in particular, and the martial specialization, will go a long way toward addressing the past problems with ludicrous overtraining.

    But I tend to agree with Adahn that the limits for the non-martial specializations, particularly scholarly, seem a little on the low side.

    Also hits clothiers comically hard, since there's six skills for it.
    Finding a sweet spot for crafting skills has proven a little difficult, specifically because of that. Some crafting skillsets only involve a single crafting skill, others involve up to six. Although learning up to all six clothing skills might also be a bit much for someone who isn't specialized as a crafter anyway. Did the clothiers not used to do a thing where different clothiers focused on different skills? Eg, you were permitted to be a cobbler or a hatter?

    Do you require all six clothing related skills to effectively tailor? If not, how many of them are needed? I was thinking just Tailor and Dyer were super necessary to assemble a basic outfit, the 14 free non-specialized points therefore allowing you to reach Senior Artisan in both of those, but I've never been particularly involved in crafting.
    StoryHost Kurzon
    Castle Marrach Staff

    kurzon.marrach@outlook.com

    The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Harabec View Post
      What if non specialized skills were simply doubles in xp? Don't have the math so can't crunch the numbers but would that make the difference?
      In the long run it wouldn't prevent people from engaging in the undesired behaviour. It would only serve to slow them down, and it wouldn't do that much either since the target characters of these changes wouldn't be affected, it would only stop new characters from reaching the same state.
      StoryHost Kurzon
      Castle Marrach Staff

      kurzon.marrach@outlook.com

      The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by AleysiaForsyth View Post
        Would it be possible to consider extra benefits for specializing in Scholar or Crafting? I mean sure, HAVING Master+ in something is reward in itself, but given how rarely one might actually need items from those tiers of skill, is it worth the sacrifice of other pursuits? Thinking about this reminded me a little of 2nd Edition D&D. The system allowed for multiclassing, so PCs could take a few levels of this and that, which is great for people who wanted to be Jack-of-all-trades, or to balance out a small party. But, as levels are finite, one could not Master in all things. However, the benefits and perks for staying with ONE class were really good, and worth staying the course for. You didn't necessarily feel like you were missing out. Sure, a reduction in how many social points one needs to level up does make it easier to obtain those higher tiers, but what if there was more that we could do with them once we got there?
        If you have suggestions on how to do so, I'm certainly open to them.

        As I outlined above, I do feel the scholar specialization is under represented as things stand. The primary problem with the scholar skillset is there's just so few scholar skills in existence to work with. If you're not interested in playing a sorcerer there's not a whole lot of incentive not to just roll martial specialization and use your 20 freebie skills to learn northern and a second scholar skill.

        I'm not sure crafting skills are presently behind though. Currently we have a lot more available crafting skills than scholar skills, and I suspect for many of our crafting inclined players, having access to those higher tiers of crafting skill feels fairly crucial to them, making crafting specialization an investment that feels more worthwhile.

        Traditionally MUDs are comprised of people who want to fight or craft things, and both of those I feel are fairly well supported by coded skills at this time. It's the scholarly oriented skills I feel need the most improvement.
        StoryHost Kurzon
        Castle Marrach Staff

        kurzon.marrach@outlook.com

        The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Kona View Post

          Kurzon

          How much of a boost to strength and fatigue?
          It's an increase of 20% to both damage and health, which is a fair edge, though not enough to guarantee victory against a non-martially-specialized character of similar martial skills if they outplayed you using the combat system mechanics.
          StoryHost Kurzon
          Castle Marrach Staff

          kurzon.marrach@outlook.com

          The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Alexandr View Post
            I'm at first glance a big fan of this new change! For now, something caught my eye though -

            So....theoretically, if for example an older martial character who fits this would die and lose a level in Northern...they could never regain that level, ever?
            That would be problematic in the case of Northern, yes, in an instance where you had a lot of pre-existing scholar skills from grandfathering but chose martial specialization. You would essentially have to cut back enough scholar skills to bring you down to 19 total, so that you could learn back that level of northern as your 20th. That could be done easily enough with an assist, but depending on how many scholar skills you got grandfathered, it could render your grandfathering null entirely.

            The solution may be to simply make Northern a cross specialization skill due to the necessity of having that skill in order to function in the Court at all, and then keep the rest of the 'flavour languages' as scholarly skills. Or, as discussed above, to remove languages from the scholar skillset altogether but severely increase the limitations on learning scholar skills to non-scholar-specialists.
            StoryHost Kurzon
            Castle Marrach Staff

            kurzon.marrach@outlook.com

            The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Taite View Post
              Let's say I choose crafting, but then down the road, I decide that I would no longer like to be a crafter. I have been taken into a Household as an equerry or even taken in as a Squire. In my example, this is what I REALLY want. But, because I chose crafting, I cannot exceed past the boundaries that have been given to me because it was not my first specialization which makes my road to Knighthood a little difficult.

              What will be the options for changing this specialization in the future?
              If it comes to that, we can look at options. Likely the solution would be to allow the specialization change from crafting to martial but remove offending crafting skills which require the crafting specialization you've given up. Or you can decide to still pursue knighthood without martial specialization, you're presently able to hold your own in combat against 95% of Player Characters without needing martial specialization.
              StoryHost Kurzon
              Castle Marrach Staff

              kurzon.marrach@outlook.com

              The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Kurzon View Post

                Finding a sweet spot for crafting skills has proven a little difficult, specifically because of that. Some crafting skillsets only involve a single crafting skill, others involve up to six. Although learning up to all six clothing skills might also be a bit much for someone who isn't specialized as a crafter anyway. Did the clothiers not used to do a thing where different clothiers focused on different skills? Eg, you were permitted to be a cobbler or a hatter?

                Do you require all six clothing related skills to effectively tailor? If not, how many of them are needed? I was thinking just Tailor and Dyer were super necessary to assemble a basic outfit, the 14 free non-specialized points therefore allowing you to reach Senior Artisan in both of those, but I've never been particularly involved in crafting.
                Yes the Clothiers still do that, as far as I know, but I don't actually have the teaching guidelines for the various clothier specializations in front of me at the moment.

                Everything except embroidery is 'required' to make the average outfit. Tailor and dyer are the main ones, obviously. Hatter is hats, probably the least required since hats aren't quite so common, and the feminine headcoverings are, IIRC, a whole mishmash of which ones take hatter and which ones are tailor? It's been a while since I've worked on any and I don't exactly have a stash of veils handy to play with like I do footwear. Cobbler is everything that touches a character's feet: boots, shoes, boot hose, regular hose, but not socks. And no idea about knee-high socks (does anyone wear these, ever?). Glover is everything that touches hands, this one probably has the least weird exceptions, in fact I can't think of any?

                But yeah, 14 craft skill levels and a cap of 7 in any single skill is hilarious overkill for jewelers, pretty darn good for embinders, and just enough to clothe a 10th link commoner.

                Condensing hatter-glover-cobbler down into Tailor so it's just Tailor and Dyer with Embroidery as an optional add on would help a lot, but gets rid of the the clothiers having the ability to train specialists, but then when you can count the active, non-VP clothiers on your thumbs (even though both would presumably be inclined to specialize as crafters anyway) the idea of requiring the training of specialists seems like a strange fit.

                --


                Originally posted by Kurzon View Post

                Finding a sweet spot for crafting skills has proven a little difficult, specifically because of that. Some crafting skillsets only involve a single crafting skill, others involve up to six. Although learning up to all six clothing skills might also be a bit much for someone who isn't specialized as a crafter anyway. Did the clothiers not used to do a thing where different clothiers focused on different skills? Eg, you were permitted to be a cobbler or a hatter?

                Do you require all six clothing related skills to effectively tailor? If not, how many of them are needed? I was thinking just Tailor and Dyer were super necessary to assemble a basic outfit, the 14 free non-specialized points therefore allowing you to reach Senior Artisan in both of those, but I've never been particularly involved in crafting.
                This is why I was thinking about a continually increasing cost for learning non-specialized skills past the cap. As a player, I would much rather be in the position of understanding it will take 5+ years for me to finish third language fluency as a non-scholar than simply bluntly being unable to learn another word of anything ever. And if someone really wants to invest an RL decade or two (of consistent social activity, no less!) in making their character into a sword-fighting book-binding heart surgeon in our medieval fantasy clothes-changing simulator... I don't really have a problem with that?

                It also would smooth over the gap between grandfathered non-VP characters with 'impossible' skills, and future characters. Old characters who are already, say, three times over the crafting level cap, for example, will have a very long struggle to try to advance any further, but future characters could theoretically still catch up to them, instead of 'well so-and-so knows how to make a silk handkerchief AND speak four languages but you will never ever ever be able to, for reasons!'.
                [OOC Page] from Juliee: "I dreamed about Aratan last night. It was the most dull dream ever"

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                • #23
                  Before teaching a lesson you must convert your old teaching skill. Please do so using @specialize then try again.
                  What about those of us who have taught equally in all three categories? Like, formal lectures and practices and open bells, not just sitting around roleplaying whilst a lesson runs its course?
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aratan View Post

                    Yes the Clothiers still do that, as far as I know, but I don't actually have the teaching guidelines for the various clothier specializations in front of me at the moment.

                    Everything except embroidery is 'required' to make the average outfit. Tailor and dyer are the main ones, obviously. Hatter is hats, probably the least required since hats aren't quite so common, and the feminine headcoverings are, IIRC, a whole mishmash of which ones take hatter and which ones are tailor? It's been a while since I've worked on any and I don't exactly have a stash of veils handy to play with like I do footwear. Cobbler is everything that touches a character's feet: boots, shoes, boot hose, regular hose, but not socks. And no idea about knee-high socks (does anyone wear these, ever?). Glover is everything that touches hands, this one probably has the least weird exceptions, in fact I can't think of any?

                    But yeah, 14 craft skill levels and a cap of 7 in any single skill is hilarious overkill for jewelers, pretty darn good for embinders, and just enough to clothe a 10th link commoner.

                    Condensing hatter-glover-cobbler down into Tailor so it's just Tailor and Dyer with Embroidery as an optional add on would help a lot, but gets rid of the the clothiers having the ability to train specialists, but then when you can count the active, non-VP clothiers on your thumbs (even though both would presumably be inclined to specialize as crafters anyway) the idea of requiring the training of specialists seems like a strange fit..
                    ---- CRAFTING ----
                    Cobbler: Fellowcraft
                    Dyer: Fellowcraft
                    Embroiderer: Senior Apprentice
                    Glover: Fellowcraft
                    Hatter: Senior Apprentice
                    Tailor: Journeyman

                    When I was learning to be a clothier, I pretty much had skills straight across the board. Then I became a senior clothier, and I was allowed a specialized skill, in which I chose Dyer, which would grant me one extra skill above the cap for the max for the skill level of a senior clothier.
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                    • #25
                      I think I like all the changes suggested, but my character doesn't have a dilemma about specializations. I do have questions about the classes though.

                      If anyone in a room can eavesdrop and therefore join any lesson going on, what is the command to show who is currently teaching what?

                      And from the teacher's perspective, what is the command to show who you are currently teaching? People might have joined the class and you missed it in the scroll, but don't want to leave the room with an unfinished class.

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                      • #26
                        I think making Northern a cross-class skill would be fairly justifiable. More so than any other language but Common, Northern is spoken throughout the Castle. Learning a language that omnipresent isn't just for scholars, it's a natural process for anyone who lives in that environment. Even people not actively seeking to learn it would probably pick it up over time. (Doesn't quite apply to the Conclave, but maybe they could be given the same concession for Eastern?)

                        I have to say I'm leaning towards agreeing with those who suggest penalties to those learning outside of their specialty rather than a hard cap. To use Melle as an example, my first instinct was that given the choice I would prefer to make him a scholar who just happens to be also be very good at fighting, as that's always been more my perception of his character. Even though right now he's not even that good at languages, I want to keep developing his magical knowledge and if Alchemy is becoming a thing I'm also definitely going to want to get him into that. I've always seen him as both scholar and warrior (and he's been described that way IC by others) but given the choice I was happy to go with that one.

                        However, the idea that that means he'll NEVER be able to improve any further in the core martial skills, beyond a level or two that he's currently short of the plateau in, is really galling. Sure there's a few areas that he could continue to invest in, and I've always seen him as more of a jack of all trades in combat terms, but the idea that most of his martial skills right now, are as good as they'll ever be able to be, is just sort of... Dispiriting. Moreover, Melle is pretty active in tournaments and martial matters. He "killed" Renart at the end of the last Triangle plot, which I'd assume is the sort of thing that gets you a mastery point. If he does that again as a scholar, would be get a different reward instead if mastery points are for warriors only?

                        Alternately, could there still be some hope for him to improve in his combat skill, but at a much slower pace? Perhaps he can still earn mastery points, but to improve a skill with them will cost two per level above the plateau, and then four per level above that, and so on? I'm using this example because mathematically it's a lot simpler, but the same could be applied to teaching and learning normal skills. What if above the cut off for non-specialists they just cost a lot more, and increasingly so as the level gets higher? I definitely understand your sentiment about how that wouldn't stop people from still trying to have it all, but if a crafter is willing to dedicate years of their character's progress to learning Eastern, or something, why not? If I personally was going to place a hard cap anywhere, it would be at the highest level (or maybe two) of each skill. That seems a good place to say that "to be this good at something you can't just study and practice for years upon years: you have to COMMIT to it."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Kurzon View Post



                          As I outlined above, I do feel the scholar specialization is under represented as things stand. The primary problem with the scholar skillset is there's just so few scholar skills in existence to work with. If you're not interested in playing a sorcerer there's not a whole lot of incentive not to just roll martial specialization and use your 20 freebie skills to learn northern and a second scholar skill.

                          Why not just make scholar a specialization for sorcerers and tailor it into them a bit more like martial spec is for their respective skills and granted abilities? Rename is Mage or something like that and there you go.

                          There seems to be some debate about if languages should really count against you in the first place and since they're the biggest draw of the scholar besides sorcery I'd rather see them dropped from the specialization and it just be a sorcery spec.

                          We could lump the other skills like healing and gardening into crafts, I know they might not really fit that description perfectly but I do think it would be more balanced that way, maybe just rename the category Trades or something like that and call it good. It would be more a catch-all of jobs. Having those skills added into one category would sweeten it a bit and give a bigger incentive to follow that path.

                          If we want to limit languages, I would suggest a limit of 3 fluent or something like that. I feel like it should just be across the board. Everyone has a language cap of 30 levels and it's not part of a specific specialization. Tying it to scholar isn't a huge incentive to take the spec imho and while a limit should probably be in place we all know that northern is a requirement so having 1 other language kinda sucks, 2 more feels better to me personally.






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                          • #28
                            I agree it might be beneficial to roll the clothier skills into tailor, dyer and embroidery. You can't do shoes without cobbler or headwear without hatter and very rarely do you find people wanting to specialize in either. When it's asked what you want to specialize in it was based on the old system and allowed you to learn 1 level higher than you normally would be able to based on your position within the Clothiers. Eg, if you're a Senior Apprentice seamstress then you'd have Fellowcraft in all the other skills, but as a specialist in tailor you'd be able to learn to Journeyman in that skill only. I don't think that's going to apply to this system, for obvious reasons. I imagine it might take a fair bit of code fixing though if all the shoes and hats call on a different skill to be crafted, so it might be more work than it's worth removing those skills entirely. Worst case scenario is everything stays as it is now and Clothiers who only get to Senior Artisan in tailor and dyer will have to write people who had grandfathered in skills to make the footwear and headwear. That's cooperative RP though.

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                            • #29
                              Something to consider that's been a long-time staple of sorcery: when you choose to become a sorcerer, you're (in-game) told you can't pursue a martial life anymore. This was represented (I think) by a small hit to your martial skills, but I don't think there was any system in place to keep your character from going out and learning to fight anyway.

                              Becoming a sorcerer (surviving a Binding) could automatically give you specialization in the scholar class (or maybe make a separate sorcery specialization and have that auto-lock, as some have suggested).

                              Another thought I had was comparing this to the World Of Darkness character-creation system. In that, you choose three levels of specialization: primary, secondary, tertiary. In the case of CM skills, primary could offer the removal of the skill cap plus bonuses, secondary could offer a larger skill cap and no bonuses, and tertiary could just be the basic capped skills.
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                              StoryPlotter Odjit points to you.
                              StoryPlotter Odjit draws her finger over her throat slowly.


                              OOC -- Rhomulus says, " you realize... of all the people on here you're one of the few to make me look up a word?! lol"

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Emerick View Post
                                Something to consider that's been a long-time staple of sorcery: when you choose to become a sorcerer, you're (in-game) told you can't pursue a martial life anymore. This was represented (I think) by a small hit to your martial skills, but I don't think there was any system in place to keep your character from going out and learning to fight anyway.
                                Well, I would not call it a small hit at least not with the current systems. The fatigue nerf is so heavy that it bars you from realistically being able to participate martially, take it from me, as a person that has tried to overcome it, it's not mechanically possible even with VERY intensive training, Kaori was vastly more skilled martially and even she went down in two rounds to anybody that had a rank in cut and thrust. Someone who is bound will never be a viable martial character or even close to one and any attempts to do so are entirely futile.

                                This discrepancy is only furthered between martial characters in the new system as they will gain an additional 20% attack and fatigue.

                                Even in normal combat, a sorcerer who doesn't win initiative is likely toast before they can cast due to their low fatigue and the additional damage they are likely taking from being unarmed against an armed opponent.

                                Only the highest level of sorcerers should ever attempt to fight anything and even then it's best to let the sword swingers do your dirty work.

                                With all that said, I don't think we have to worry about too many people making the attempt. It's not like we need to bar the skills entirely from sorcerers or even really have an ICly "You can't do that talk". Sorcerers are already in a boat where those skills are nearly useless to possess because of such small returns on investment.

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