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  • #31
    Honestly, this gives us all a decision to make. Who do we want to become? For me, the decision was easy. I am not very good at fighting and I am not in a crafting guild, so being a scholar is the obvious choice for me. So what happens after I am fluent in western and teanga? Perhaps, maybe, sculpting can be added to the list. Once you pass a lesson or become 'Intermediate' or whatever, sculpting with a certain material will become available.

    NOW

    In the Collegium, there are Independent Colleges. There's the Independent College of the Arcane, the Independent College of Medicine, the Independent College of Heraldry and the Independent College of Economics. Naturally, these groups should be listed under the scholarly spectrum.

    We do not have many options now for scholars such as Taite, but there is so much possibility for being a scholar, even if lessons aren't involved, the rewards for such exist and are granted within the game.

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    • #32
      For those of us who do teach (and have taught) actively, at what rate can we expect to advance in Teaching? Is that still RNG like it was before, or do we get credit toward that for every lesson we teach?
      Established Guest • Pursuivant Herald • Junior Gardener
      LPA Instructor • Artist and Jongleur • Seeker of the Faith

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      • #33
        A suggestion that came up amid discussion tonight was to provide a means for people to forget. Say Yoyo decides that the martial lifestyle is not working out for her and wants to devote herself to the Garden Society. She goes to Master Orson, who provides her with waters from the River Lethe, she forgets her martial specialization and is free to pursue a scholarly life of Gardening. Or perhaps Sir Adahn dies and loses a level in Northern. He goes to Master Orson, who provides him with a less potent draught so he can forget a level of something scholarly that he can regain fluency in the tongue of Court. Didn't there used to be a counter to the Remembers called the Forgetters? A fine time to bring them back, if so.
        Established Guest • Pursuivant Herald • Junior Gardener
        LPA Instructor • Artist and Jongleur • Seeker of the Faith

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Yolanda View Post
          A suggestion that came up amid discussion tonight was to provide a means for people to forget. Say Yoyo decides that the martial lifestyle is not working out for her and wants to devote herself to the Garden Society. She goes to Master Orson, who provides her with waters from the River Lethe, she forgets her martial specialization and is free to pursue a scholarly life of Gardening. Or perhaps Sir Adahn dies and loses a level in Northern. He goes to Master Orson, who provides him with a less potent draught so he can forget a level of something scholarly that he can regain fluency in the tongue of Court. Didn't there used to be a counter to the Remembers called the Forgetters? A fine time to bring them back, if so.
          I'll have to lose 18 levels of things I've earned over the long years to get that one level of northern back.

          I understand the reasoning of what is being done, but it is still far too prohibitive and punitive to reach that goal.

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          • #35
            If you are a courtier and you lose a point in Northern, but you have already reached your max, do you go through the rest of your life not knowing some words, or can exceptions be made?

            Because Northern is so important, can we put that on the 'DO NOT TOUCH' list when someone dies? Those who choose other paths such as martial or crafting, will then not have to worry about losing a point in Northern that they will never get back if they die. To do anything Inner, you have to know Northern. Losing a point in Northern permanently can potentially effect your goals and your future.

            Perhaps a sacrifice can be made to the Game Gods about getting that point back.

            Not sure why, but I just envisioned a ritual around a fire. People are dancing to Elesin's drums as two people stand near the fire. One is the one donating a knowledge point and the other is the receiver.

            Honestly, I don't envision this sacrifice being this dramatic, obviously. I was originally thinking about taking one point from my western and adding it to Northern.

            Or...we can do it the way I've been told since I started.

            Don't die....

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Aptaliesin View Post

              I'll have to lose 18 levels of things I've earned over the long years to get that one level of northern back.

              I understand the reasoning of what is being done, but it is still far too prohibitive and punitive to reach that goal.

              And the current setup is too prohibitive and punitive to those of us who haven't those long years invested. We have to make our decisions at this instant and that will limit us for the rest of our time playing Marrach. Anyone who lucked into increases in Teaching in the old system, for example, has a huge advantage in the current system, because they might not care if they never increase their Teaching again. These new guidelines are broken and penalize those newer to the game. I now must abandon several paths I was on because I can no longer learn the skills related to those paths. And the game as a whole suffers, because marginal guilds like the LPA and the Garden Society won't be able to attract people who want to have a 'side gig' apart from their martial endeavors. Those guilds have too little benefit for the investment to attract most players. The guidelines aren't balanced. The guidelines aren't fair. The guidelines need to change. Complacent older players can afford to say 'I got mine, screw you', but this likely will kill the game. Why play a game that prevents you from becoming as awesome as people who discovered the game before you did?
              Established Guest • Pursuivant Herald • Junior Gardener
              LPA Instructor • Artist and Jongleur • Seeker of the Faith

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              • #37
                I agree that no matter how you slice it this is going to negatively affect some of the player base. Either vets are losing skills or new players are unable to get to their levels.

                But, I don't think the hard guidelines for non-martials are that terrible and you would still be reasonably competitive if you were a crafter that did martial training. As previously stated, I would just like to see crafters spec get the other skills that have been thrown into scholar (healer and gardening) and make a tradesman spec out of it so it's more worthwhile while we keep the scholar spec entirely geared towards sorcery like the martial class is for martial characters. You're a Tradesman, a Martial, or a Mage.

                If we lower the number of skills needed for each craft to 2 (I would also suggest increasing to 2 skills for any that are just 1) we could make it so that even martial characters and scholars could gain a craft and at least service the outer without having to rely on other characters to help them, this would eliminate the possibilities of just not having crafters in the future. If K has to take scholar to be a sorceress, once capped out in jewelry and engraving, she can manage the outer jewelry bells without having to run to Lilly all the time for help (like she does right now). I think as a non-crafter that is the best you can really ask for but tailors should be in the same boat as her instead of having to be so specialized.

                Languages really do need to be separated as well. Either with a cap of 2-3 fluent or with no cap at all. I don't think it matters if Adahn learns every language there is in the keep.

                We are trying to make a three-class system here basically, but the issues that I'm seeing all stem back to scholarly skills being languages and crafting skills being so spread out with certain crafts that anyone but a crafter spec would be wasting their time to try as they would never be able to even service outer bailey bells effectively..

                Lets look at Adahn's skills once more.

                ---- SCHOLARLY ----
                Gardening: Apprentice +2
                Healer: Artisan +7
                Eastern: Master +8
                Western: Novice +1
                Northern: Grand Master +10
                Teanga: Grand Master +10

                So if we say languages are capped at 3 (30 points) for all specs then Adahn is fine...though he would need to drop that 1 in Western to be fluent in Eastern I don't see that as a huge deal as long as he was able to do so. I'm sure there would be a character that would lose a language if we put a cap like that on it. I'm not saying we even should really and If languages are entirely outside of the spec system and you can catch em all like pokemon I don't think it matters too much.

                IF we put caps on things they really should be retroactively enforced, I know that sucks to lose progress...believe me, I've lost skills from previous updates and it wasn't very fun to log in and see my weapon skills gone overnight. I think players that lose skills should be compensated somehow, maybe a few SP or something to that nature to soften the blow for them? I'm not sure. We really shouldn't have a bunch of characters that are mechanically beyond the capabilities to catch up to...especially when the new systems are likely to slow the progression of newer players already.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Kona View Post
                  Even in normal combat, a sorcerer who doesn't win initiative is likely toast before they can cast due to their low fatigue and the additional damage they are likely taking from being unarmed against an armed opponent.

                  Only the highest level of sorcerers should ever attempt to fight anything and even then it's best to let the sword swingers do your dirty work.
                  Can confirm, its about a 75% hit to your fatigue but in an ideal world, sorcerers are supposed to be considered ranged combatants and shouldn't be so easy to hit. Unfortunately, there's still some work to be done coding that aspect, I'm told, as well as coding effective spells to use in combat without making sorcery suddenly OP. All we gotta do is bide our time.

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                  • #39
                    Kona has some really good ideas there.
                    Established Guest • Pursuivant Herald • Junior Gardener
                    LPA Instructor • Artist and Jongleur • Seeker of the Faith

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                    • #40
                      I read this like a Lovecraft story. With an increasing sense of impending doom and sickening horror at every new word, sentence and paragraph.

                      1. I don't want G to just have *one* teaching specialization. After two decades at this God-forsaken game, if he can't be *both* a Scholarly and Martial teacher, I... just don't know what to say.

                      2. I don't want to have to split up my damned classes into Beginner X or Intermediate Y. It's hard enough just to get people's 'orders' in for a typical practice. ('Okay. Lemme do thrust first. Then I got another two for guard and one singleton for feint.') I mean, if you keep driving customers away it'll get easier, but for a typically busy class, I don't want to have to split up *four separate* thrust classes.

                      3. There was absolutely no prior discussion, debate or feedback about this system. While generally I've been happy with other systems launched on us (Duel 2.0, MCombat) this system goes straight at redefining who people believe their characters TO BE, intrinsically, and limits what they can DO and BECOME. And I, for one, want to state that this cripples people's hopes and dreams.

                      4. It may seem reasonable to the people who conceived it. I read the Facebook post and the basic idea sounded good. Now I am reading the detailed implementation and... I am just in 'maybe I log out forever now' mental mode.

                      I am a person who loves "hybrid characters" -- Mashups. Dual-class D&D characters. Fury/Arms warriors in classic WoW. Renaissance people. Poet-warriors and fighting wizards. The current system is crippling to my very soul.

                      It makes Castle Marrach into something I never wanted it to become.

                      I feel like Marlon Brando at the end of Apocalypse Now, lying on my bed in a fevered waking muttering "The horror... The horror..."
                      ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

                      ~ For Love! For Valour!
                      ~ For Honour! For Glory!
                      ~ Onwards to Adventure!

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                      • #41
                        Gareth

                        I'm going to respond point by point

                        1. If my proposed changes were implemented and languages were not on the list of scholarly skills but rather their own somewhat limited category or available to everyone freely would you be able to place Gareth into a Martial spec and have him still work as you see him? I feel like you wouldn't lose much if that was the case.

                        2. I agree, while in theory, the proposition of multiple lesson brackets makes sense, in practice, it would feel clunky in a room full of people that all have different skill levels. If we're going to do something like what has been put forward I would suggest lesson times be taken down significantly to compensate. Sitting around forever and hoping to get a lesson when you're the only one that needs specific skill is already a thing, we don't need to make it even harder to obtain those skills when we have social points and combat xp requirements stopping us from overtraining them.

                        3. Well, I sympathize. I know full well what it's like to have your character's hopes and dreams crushed, It's not terribly fun to be told you'll never be able to do something no matter how hard you try. I think this can be reworked a bit to not feel like that though with just a bit of recoding and balancing.

                        4. Did you say fighting wizards? That's something I would like to see too. I once again sympathize and know a thing or two about how "soul-crippling" Marrach can be (see what I did there? lol). I think we should be attempting to combat things we dislike constructively though and make the game a better environment for the characters we want to play. Lets not just say "This sucks, I hate it" lets work together and come up with ideas on what we would like to see and how it should be implemented.



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                        • #42
                          Some of the posts are a little dramatic. Kurzon has always listened to feedback on systems he's put out and implemented it if it needed to be implemented for fairness to players and overall benefit of the game. He will literally spend hours upon hours reading and responding to things while you guys are off doin' your RL thing. So cut the guy some slack. He's done more for the code in this game than has ever been done, and no, not everyone is going to like it, but no one ever likes everything in this game anyway. But I know, and most of you do too, that he's going to read every post and make notes and then tweak things. I mean, hell, y'all live in the practice hall thanks to 2.0 which has undergone so many revisions due to assists, commentary, and IG play that needed to be tweaked, and this teach code literally just came out and needs that debug / beta time.

                          As for fighting wizards; y'all ain't the first ones to want it (Blod's an ex-Corporal-Inquisitor turned Sorcerer, so you can imagine how oft that dream came and went), but I imagine that the second a sorcerer was skilled enough to throw their real spells and hit people decently with weapons a thread would pop up about how awfully OP they are and crying would commence. Hybrid-characters are cool af, but it's one of those things that has to be balanced out, too.

                          I would also deem that crushing of hopes and dreams and soul-crippling experiences include having to read people slam something you've put a ton of time into before 1. really using it, 2. giving it a chance and 3. letting it have its beta phase. Just give it a chance, and if you still want to maybe log out forever (again in some player's cases) then go for it, but like I said it literally just came out and any system that just comes out undergoes adjustments.

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                          • #43
                            Blodwen, there you go being the voice of reason again. Goddess... <3

                            Kurzon, you have done and still do incredible things for this game and I wish to Dog that people would come back and see how awesome Marrach could be again. I was so excited to learn that the Garden Society at long last had a crafting system but cannot now learn those skills due to it being categorized as scholarly. This code goes a long long way toward fixing problems that have existed since the beginning, but the guidelines for skill development were not one of the things that was broken.

                            This is a game of romantic fantasy (romantic in the medieval sense, not the modern one), and the Castle should be full of aspiring warrior-poets both heroic and villainous. Ellen Kushner's Riverside stories are the best example of what I mean, so-called 'mannerpunk' where the heroes and villains alike are witty, urbane, charming, and dangerous. Limiting what players can achieve via game mechanics to the extent that they can never match those they admire among their betters seems antithetical to the game's premise. And before someone cries 'But roleplaying!', yes I know. But the skills system came about because roleplaying wasn't enough, there needed to be rules to keep everyone playing fair.
                            Established Guest • Pursuivant Herald • Junior Gardener
                            LPA Instructor • Artist and Jongleur • Seeker of the Faith

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                            • #44
                              I've just spent the last hour cleaning up dog vomit and thinking about the skills and teaching revamp so let me share my tedious late night ruminations with you all.

                              From an overall design standpoint I really like what it does for specialized martial characters. That part stands well on its own. It's great. If it were literally just that and XP costs for lessons, and hell, that and XP costs for lessons and the new teaching classes thing, even, just without the concept of specializations, I would be slobbing Kurzon's rhetorical knob with reckless and joyful abandon.

                              But the effort to create a contrast between 'martial' and 'nonmartial' characters has, in my view, resulted in two other little vestigial classes that don't really seem to make anyone happy. There's not really enough to specializing in one of them to make it 'worth it' (how many people learn multiple different crafts, really, that they'd actually give much of a shit about decreased XP costs lmao) unless you set the caps such that you essentially cannot do the thing usefully at all unless that is your specialization.

                              With the previous understanding being 'you can learn one craft if you wish, non-special languages and martial skills based on rank, sorcery/eme at the whim of the RS if you want to be a sorcerer primarily, healing if you want to be a healer primarily', this results in any reasonably-long-lived character who did not specifically make an effort to restrict themselves to one-thing-and-one-thing-only being outside the new caps (to varying degrees), which means they have to choose now to essentially retroactively redefine who their character is on a fairly base level, as was so eloquently put, deriving little benefit from their choice beyond the ability to choose which aspects of themselves they will eventually lose. And by the same token, it makes it utterly impossible for future characters to attain that same level for no ICly explicable reason.

                              I am in the process of crunching some numbers for the idea of continually increasing XP penalties for learning non-specialized skills past the cap, because I remain convinced it is the most minor and straightforward adjustment to the system as currently implemented that best fixes the problems I perceive with it while, I suspect, remaining effective at combating the worst of what the teaching revamp was intended to curb.

                              Harmonizing all the crafts at two or three skills is.. I think basically mandatory, at this point, with the caps as they are.

                              The insistence on the hard caps almost has me wondering if the eventual plan is to monetize options for expanding them, TEC-style.


                              I wish I had been more in the loop about the proposal back in the proposal stages because then I could have annoyed the piss out of poor Kurzon by suggesting an alternative to address the design issue I mentioned at the start of my post, of combat being a well-realized and appealing class and the other two being limp little babby classes, likely by formalizing and codedly-enforcing the existing understandings. But then, if the goal really was to stringently enforce a completely new paradigm of significantly narrowed character focus/stimulate purchasing additional character slots/provide future monetization options, formalizing the previous paradigm doesn't, you know, do that. This post is already too damn long, though, so I'll spare y'all having to read any further fart-huffing pontification on my part.
                              [OOC Page] from Juliee: "I dreamed about Aratan last night. It was the most dull dream ever"

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                              • #45
                                I definitely recognize Kurzon's Herculean efforts to do great systems for the game. Duel 2.0 and then MCombat, along with the gathering, herbalism, etc., skills were awesome.

                                However, I think Aratan hit on the main point. It would have been wonderful to have more of a community-oriented review cycle up-front before this was launched.

                                For languages specifically, I just can't imagine why anyone wants the majority of the game's population squinting in major scenes and at Royal Court asking "Wait. What is she saying?"

                                If there was just an enforced skill cap on Martial skills, fine, whatever. It's when there's an enforced Language skill cap, and then also a division of the teaching skill which imposes artificial specializations and all the rest of it that I feel the idea has gone off the rails.

                                Final point: Sorcerers were supposed to be terrible fighters. The way their magic worked was supposed to gimp them. Wizards, on the other hand, from the very early game lore -- the Royal Wizard was a "Gandalf" -- casting spells and swinging swords (one made of crystal, specifically in one story IIRC). That was supposed to be a major difference between the two schools. Serista would have said that if you needed to use a sword you had failed at learning sorcery. Maugis would craft an otherworldly sword to defeat his opponents.
                                ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

                                ~ For Love! For Valour!
                                ~ For Honour! For Glory!
                                ~ Onwards to Adventure!

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