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New Game Feature: @class [Teach 2.0]

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Gareth View Post
    Final point: Sorcerers were supposed to be terrible fighters. The way their magic worked was supposed to gimp them. Wizards, on the other hand, from the very early game lore -- the Royal Wizard was a "Gandalf" -- casting spells and swinging swords (one made of crystal, specifically in one story IIRC). That was supposed to be a major difference between the two schools. Serista would have said that if you needed to use a sword you had failed at learning sorcery. Maugis would craft an otherworldly sword to defeat his opponents.
    Fair enough, I guess we'll have to wait for Maugis then.


    • #47
      The martial aspect is pretty well done, and far more forgiving for everyone than scholar is. I'm almost exactly at the limits, defined in the original post, so unless i'm learning weapon forms we dont have access to on the surface, You guys can get -extremely- close to supposedly knight level abilities. I have one point to use for my mastery in something, but it glitched when I tried to use it, so waiting on a fix on that. I cant tell for certain, but the point "unlocks for training" makes it sound like once you've received one of these hard won points, it doesn't mean that you'll have someone willing to teach it to you. Its unlocked to be learned, but it sounds like it doesn't give it to you outright after the effort of earning the point.

      So if I read correctly, does it mean that it just affords you the potential to learn it?

      After thinking quite a lot about all the different ways these specializations can be approached, it actually looks like a more interesting character is one that can be specialized in scholar and max out martial, since the limits are much more forgiving than scholar's limits are. You'll still be able to fight very well, and spend some of that eternity learning languages, how to set bones, pluck flowers and whatever else you want to be a Grand-master of scholastically.

      I've tried to make Adahn a Lawful Good Paladin (faithful warrior, kick ass and heal on the side) every since I got back. So I've chosen martial for him because of the role play involved in my primary wish for him. I'm looking to see how the martial specialization plays out long run. Though I do have some trepidation on the limitations. No soldier in any society anywhere only fights, from when they wake to they go to sleep. Less so in Fantasy Marrach. They have skills to master and contribute and are encouraged to hone those non-combat skills, so in between battles, there's productivity you can generate. Mechanics, doctors, communications officers, leadership and strategy study from the generals of olden history. Lots of scholarly pursuits when at home at not at war. This was a major policy in ancient Greece as a matter of fact. The Spartans focused more on the battle aspect and they demonstrated that specialization quite frequently, but they were also poets, artists and craftsmen too. Maybe not -as- good as the Athenians, but still capable of doing something besides hurl a spear 200 yards with precision accuracy.

      Now, we've all always hated the fact we could fail something 20 times before the system is merciful and just gives it to you finally, and felt the relief of passing something the first try. We no longer have that negative to harm us and that is to be celebrated. .... But nothing comes free, and the cost is high for both new and old in different ways.


      • #48
        Hi all,

        It's a little too time consuming to individually reply to every comment or suggestion in this thread while trying to make time to work on other things on the side, but I am reading this thread even if I don't reply to each post.

        Based on feedback and suggestions, there's a few potential tweaks on the table that I'm looking at implementing over the course of the next week or so.
        • We can remove the hard cap on skill training in non-specialized skills and instead impose an increased experience requirement when learning skills above said cap. It doesn't prevent people from amassing skillsets far outside of what I feel can be argued as reasonable, but it may be the case that we've passed the threshold where addressing that was possible long ago. The route I am looking at is retaining the existing caps but making them 'soft caps' instead of 'hard caps', meaning that after you reach your 20th scholar skill level, skill levels beyond that receive a penalty to the amount of experience required to learn them, but they can still always be learned. What remains to be determined is whether it should be a consistent number (eg. +200% xp cost once you reach the soft cap in a specialization) or a stacking number (eg. +25% per skill level that you're over your soft cap).
        • If people are particularly set against having three different teaching skills for the different specializations, that can be reverted, I'm not particularly set on it either way. The idea was that someone who spends all their time teaching human anatomy isn't going to be as proficient at teaching swordplay, and I also wanted to address the fact that language teachers advance their teaching skill far more rapidly than anyone else because language lessons pass a lot more often than other skills. However it was never a major objective of this update.
        On the matter of changing (condensing) the crafting skills, that's a proposal separate from this teaching code. A revised crafting system is probably next'ish on our coding to-do list, and would include Alchemy as well as give us things to use those harvested ingredients you've all been collecting on.

        On the Sorcery tangent, Gareth's description more or less summarizes it. From its conception as far back as I think 2002ish before I started playing, Sorcery has always had a -75% penalty to both your damage and endurance in the dueling code, the lore concept being that the binding physically wreaks havoc on your body and leaves you too weak to fight physically. It used to be the case that sorcery PCs all roleplayed walking around with staves or canes and being generally decrepit, and at some point that stopped.

        The only wording I would nitpick with Gareth's description is to specificy: sorcery can be used to fight with, it just doesn't use steel as a means of doing so. In fact, the last time a sorcerer Player Character with combat spells went rogue we pretty quickly got posts decrying sorcery as being 'overpowered' as he went around generally annihilating everyone in his path up until he ran into one of the more highly skilled PC swordsmen. Sorcery combat is possible, it doesn't require you to be that highly skilled (I think the combat spells you need start appearing around level 4 or so), and it more than holds its own against melee fighters if the necessary spells are possessed. In fact, due to ability synergy types and the fact that willpower boosts are easier to access than strength or fatigue boosts, a sorcerer probably has a mathematical advantage against a swordsman of the same skill level.
        StoryHost Kurzon
        Castle Marrach Staff

        The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.


        • #49

          I'll try not to derail this thread with the topic of sorcery beyond this post, I'm bad about that and I apologize. If you're interested in why I disagree with your assessment of its balance I'm more than happy to discuss it with you privately and present my ideas on what can be done to bring it in line, I believe I can actually save you some work and get it feeling up to snuff with a few of my thoughts as well as stop people from crying out "That's cheap" every time a sorcerer casts something.

          You have always been very forward in answering my questions regarding sorcery mechanics and I feel I have the pieces together fairly well, but that still doesn't change my viewpoint. I do appreciate your transparency greatly though and just want you to know I'm not trying to frivolously complain about sorcery, I'm attempting to constructively assist with it.

          With due respect, I would not say a single powerful sorcerer racking a kill count through a planned attack shows that it is indeed equal in practice. I would argue that even a middle of the road martial character who did the same could probably sweep the outer on most days without anyone being able to stop them until a skilled swordsman came and saved the day.

          Inflicting wounds onto people with spells outside of a turn-based combat system without them being able to do much about it would indeed feel cheap to most so I can see why there would be an outcry of OP in that situation, we all only have so many wounds we can take regardless of fatigue so a sorcerer can kill higher level characters just as easily as lower-level ones for the most part and while that is the sorcerer's strength that to me is also an unbalanced mechanical issue. It is starting to be fixed with Mcombat and I think patience is key at this point as I know staff is absolutely slammed with other work. I'm sure that things like that particular event will be handled in Mcombat in the future and if that event did happen in the future, once sorcery is fully implemented into Mcombat, I doubt that rogue sorcerer would have gotten very far.

          I do invite your discussion on the subject further but will save this thread from devolving into a sorcery debate and keep at the original point beyond this post out of respect for that. If others would like to have an open discussion about such I'm sure we could start a thread regarding the future of sorcery and discuss possible options before the updates for it are fully implemented. Focusing on the current threads system updates seems far more imperative though as it affects the entirety of the player base.


          • #50
            Originally posted by Kurzon View Post
            A revised crafting system is probably next'ish on our coding to-do list, and would include Alchemy as well as give us things to use those harvested ingredients you've all been collecting on.
            I thoroughly enjoy looking at things I've harvested and trying to figure out what can be done with it. Aside from the Luminous Salt handwarmers, I was thinking of using the smoke cones and the twigs from the hay pile (since we no longer have stables) and making holiday wreaths. Perhaps, add some ribbons. Perhaps, we could harvest the hay pile for the ingredients for wreaths.

            BUT YEAH, as for the teach2.0, I look forward to seeing how this all works out!
            Last edited by Taite; 11-24-2019, 10:19 AM.


            • #51
              I'm definitely a lot happier with the changes on the whole with soft caps on the table! And yeah I think it does need to be said more that what you're doing for the game with these revisions is really incredible, Kurzon. Especially when it comes to trying to meet the wishes and expectations of such an invested player base.

              At the moment I'm still torn between warrior and scholar for Melle for a few different reasons, but I'd also really like to get back to the game properly, including teaching and holding bells. Can I assume that once all the key parts of the system are ironed out we'll be given another chance to make final specialisation decisions, or if I pick one for him now is that set in stone forever?


              • #52
                Hi all,

                I've taken the quiet Thanksgiving weekend to sit down and focus on implementing some revisions as discussed in this thread. The following changes are now in effect:
                • The hard cap on how many non-specialized skills you can learn has been replaced with a soft cap. For every skill level you learn beyond the "free skill cap" for a skill tree you've not specialized in, there is a percentage increase to the amount of SkillXp needed to level up that skill. This increase starts small but increases the more skill levels you are over your skill cap within that skill tree.
                • The strength and fatigue bonus for martial specialization has been removed. With the change from a hard cap to a soft cap as described above, there was no incentive not to pick martial specialization while those stat boosts were in effect, as it was the only specialization granting unique benefits you couldn't eventually learn with the other two specializations.
                • The three separate teaching skills have been merged back into a single teaching skill.
                • You can now check the progress of an ongoing lesson via @skills and @learn while teaching or studying respectively. This displays lesson progress as a percentage of a 30 minute lesson (so at 50% completion, roughly 15 minutes remain). Be aware that lessons do not progress while the student or teacher is more than a few minutes idle; if this counter is not rising over time, it's because one of you are too idle.
                • The @skills command now more clearly marks non specialized skills in their own category.
                • Various circumstances were fixed where emits were displaying a skill property name instead of its display name (ie, "lang4" instead of "northern" would occasionally appear in emits).
                • The @mastery command should now be working.
                StoryHost Kurzon
                Castle Marrach Staff


                The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.


                • #53
                  Thanks for the quick work on these changes! Northern was showing up as an unspecialised skill before but now it's shifted back to scholarly, is that where it's likely to stay?


                  • #54
                    You're amazing. Thank you for working so hard for us.


                    • #55
                      Thank you so much for all your hard work, Kurzon! Thank you for being so dedicated to this game, and for listening to the players' suggestions. You are made of awesome sauce, man!
                      Hildegard Helmsdottir


                      • #56
                        Awesome sauce? I knew I was forgetting something for Thanksgiving! LOL


                        • #57
                          Hey all!

                          We've seen your @bugs and @assists regarding the issues and errors with teaching crafting skills. I'm no Kurzon, so it took me a while to get it sorted. Everything should be functioning as intended. Go forth, teach and learn...if there are any further issues, you know how to let us know!

                          Happy gaming!
                          Story Husi
                          Half-Man, Half-Bear, All Chocolate


                          • #58
                            Thank you Husi, you are the best! Much appreciation for fixing that for us. <3


                            • #59

                              BUG FIXES

                              * Addressed a bug which caused crafting category skills such as hairstyling or carpentry to error out when trying to join the class (as per Husi's message above)
                              * Addressed a bug which caused level 0 skills to error out on lesson completion
                              StoryHost Kurzon
                              Castle Marrach Staff


                              The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in.


                              • #60

                                You all are awesome. Thank you for all your hard work!



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