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  • #16
    Ser Martel :

    Theres no need to be insulting in this discussion. It only lowers you, and does not affect me.

    I do not murder. Murder is a weapon I care not to wield. I do not cheat. Noone I have ever made a deal with, can claim I have cheated. I do not steal, unless you call taking advantage of peoples stupidity, theft. I do not have anything that was not freely given.

    Allright, Ser Martel.. fair.. is fair.

    List your honor, that I might comment upon it, and cast it in the worst possible light. I assure you, its not hard.


    I remain,

    Comment


    • #17
      Tis hard to put honor into a simply list of rules, as you should know. Honor is part of you, the part that makes you able to stand up and face the mirror in the morning. The part that lets you survive when all you love turns to dust. But I will try to list some pieces of what I consider important.

      Trustworthyness. The fact that you keep your oath and word. That your companions can rely upon you in their need, no matter the cost to you.

      Action. To passively stand by and watch evil deeds done and not speak up, even if they do not effect you. That is not honorable. How can you hold silent when ill deeds are done, and still call yourself a man?

      Defense of those weaker than yourself. An honorable man does not pick on or bully those weaker than himself. He does not allow others to either. He should stand and defend those who can not defend themselves.

      Respect. Her Majesty deserves our respect and admeration. As do those other high lords and ladies, knights of the realm, and all those blessed be being called to serve. To not respect these people is to show your disrespect for her Majesty.

      While I am sure you willl fin d fault with this, I will add it. Living well. One should live one's live with grace and decorum. Can one be honorable and drunk all the time? One can, but it is a fine line to walk.

      Good deeds. One can not simply rest on one's laurels and bask in the glow of the past. One must continue to strive for that which is right and just.

      Self Sacrifice. One must be willing to put oneself on the line. If you will not risk your possessions, your position, or even your life to defend that which must be defended. Or to protect your honor, do you have any honor to protect?

      Forgiveness. While one must be passionate in the defense of what is right, one must also hold compassion and forgiveness in ones heart. Be willing to accept a heart felt appology from thine enemy, and let the past be the past.

      I will agree with you that one must always work for the greater good, but what that good is we differ on. I firmly reject your indications that we need 'balance' in this place. That for every good, there must be an evil. Darkness to the light. I would claim that all should strive to make all better. To bring this place to a state where we can all find happyness, and live out the days peacefully.

      I am sure I have left things out, and I know I have left some things ill defined. Such as what is 'right'. As to that, I must simply wave my hands and say that words fail me. I am but a swordsman. Passionate and Honorable, but not as much a wordsmith as yourself or sera Punzel I am afraid. I would be happy to trade back and for examples from our lives to illustrate our opinions, but I fear this is not the place for such a debate. Perhaps the philosophy guild can arrange a time at one of their meetings for us two to speak on how we define honor, and let those present add their questions and ideas in.

      In defense of honor,

      Martel

      Comment


      • #18
        I too have thought long on my own definition of honor, and will offer it here as my own contribution to this discussion. While I do not claim that my own definition of honor is one that should be applied to all, it is the code I seek to follow in my own life, and I see it as being composed of a number of interrelated elements:

        Truth: I try to be ever honest and worthy of trust, as well as standing in defense of what is true and against what is false in the world around me. However, even the Winter Watch will refrain from speaking about the details of a case, and may even sometimes hear others make false assumptions about that case without speaking to correct the misunderstanding. An oath sworn must not be broken ... an untrue word must not be spoken. That is my definition of truth.

        Justice: I feel that I must stand for what is right and just, and not only what is lawful. When one is unjustly treated, I must speak in their defense. When I treat someone unjustly -- as I do sometimes, as I am not my own ideal and do still endeavor each day to be more worthy and honorable -- I must acknowledge this both to myself and to those I have wronged. 'Justice', however, is of course a term which in turn requires its own definition, just as 'honor' does.

        Loyalty: I will ever do everything in my power to defend, protect, support, and serve those who have earned my love, Her Majesty Queen Vivienne above all.

        Modesty: Humility, respect for those who have earned it, and admission of my own fallibility are all crucial to my own definition of honor.

        Generosity: I endeavor to be generous with my time, my energy, my attention, my belongings, my forgiveness, and my mercy.

        Courage: I must not allow myself to be frightened away from respecting these other facets of honor. I attempt to be brave in the face of all dangers and threats, and not shrink from sacrifice if I feel that honor requires it.

        Diligence: And yet I feel that none of these things amounts to true honor if they are offered only laxly. True honor, in my mind, requires hard-working diligence of purpose ... constant action and not only philosophy.

        I believe also, however, that these elements of honor will of necessity in a complex world sometimes conflict, and my own definition of true honor lies in resolving those inevitable and painful conflicts in one's own heart to do what one truly believes is best for all.

        Humbly submitted,
        Viola

        Comment


        • #19
          I must say that I agree most whole heartedly with most of what sera Viola has said. My only reservation is that I believe it is not honorable to withold the truth if you thus profit by it. For example, if someone believes you a watchman, and thus gives you things, by accepting them you further the lie. And that is dishonorable. Tis akin to impersonating a Lord or Lady of the court. A very dangerious game to play at.

          In defense of honor and identity,

          Martel

          Comment


          • #20
            I too have thought long and hard on my definition of Honor. I do not presume to tell others what their personal Honor should be. We all have to look in the mirror at the end of the day and decide if we like what we see there.

            While I could define every concept I consider within my personal Honor, it would be redundant to what has been so eloquently said by ser Martel and sera Viola, with which I firmly agree. I shall add only this:

            We must always do the Right. And if we fall away from the Right, pray we realize we have and can find it again.


            In Oath and Honor,

            Kiera
            Last edited by Kiera; 06-04-2001, 11:51 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              On the Subject of Honor

              To all of the excellent words offered heretofore, I humbly interject some of my own philosophy. May that it offend none and please many.

              There is, undoubtedly, Honor within the self, made possible by our adventuresome spirit, and desired to be upheld by our passionate soul.

              This internal, personal Honor seemeth most often held in mind by many when the name Honor is invoked.

              And yet, some say such internal reflection may or may not be Honor.

              I wot, as Honor internally is held, its estimation depends on one's own awareness of Self and knowledge of the Virtues which comprise the ideal of Honor.

              It might have a true value, which the Heavens and all may attest. Or it might through one's own mirror of mind be distorted or discolored in a way. It may be a value inflated or deflated from the Truth as seen by all under Heaven.

              If one's own true and fair Honor is exceeded by one's own estimation of Self Worth, such might be seen by others as Pride. If one's own earned or inherent Honor is in fact greater than one's estimation of it, it might be seen as Humility, or in extreme, Denial of Self-Worth.

              If one's own sense of Honor is distorted, as would be a mirror warped, broken, or deficient in its reflectivity, whether caused by baseness or coarseness of a character's own material or its form, then the very concept of Honor, or one's estimation of it within oneself might be a false faith. Or if viewed with dim eyesight, blind to deficiencies or blurred to the truth, then one could not truly estimate one's own merits or foibles of Honor.

              Therefore, although one may have Honor within oneself, a society is always deemed the best judge of character. By the jury of peers, by those above us, below us, and beside us in station, we can be measured. For those below us might show us their admiration and thereby we have their honor. Those beside us might show us camraderie, and thereby we have friendship. And those above us might show us favor.

              And it is often that one sees in the eyes of others that which one is blind and deaf to themself.

              Therefore, one might hold an inner sense of Honor, and yet, it might be best judged that such Honor will be seen and recognized, praised and lauded, recorded and remembered by others.

              Likewise, one's own Honor might be reflected in the acts, deeds, and words shown by oneself to others. For would not a person of Honor show favors to those below them who are of worth? Would they not show friendship and open camraderie to those of equal station in life? Would they not show admiration and glad servitude to those above them?

              Elsewise, what is this Honor, but one's own opinion of self? Honor to me is more powerful when it is based in the skein and weave of one's fellows. It is more strongly woven the more people it is anchored to, and enjoined with. And therefore, since an internal sense of Honor may be something one desires in one way, and yet another desires and holds dear a different way, then one may need to show Honor differently, so that each may feel honored in the way that pleases them most.

              Just as one might enjoy a present of nourishing food, or another a kind word more. To each, we might show Honor as they would find it best to be recieved by them.

              And yet, Honor recognized by none but self, in disregard entire for all other's opinions, and worshipped by none other, and shown and given not to another, but held miserly within one's breast, or if when offered to thee innocently by another but in a way not desired by one, but rebuffed as a feeble and wrongful gift, this is all disworshipful.

              Otherwise, one who holds their Honor so different than their fellows as to be considered alien in any situation might indeed be cut out and ostracized. What is good or evil, right or wrong, true or false is then waged in war between the self and the community. And in this, though there might be some situations in which the self should reign surpreme, and indeed might, this is a hard course of action. Mayhaps the hardest form of Honor to be successful with. That is why those with an unswerving, unyielding, and uncooperative sense of Honor oft find themselves solitary Heros, often in Tragic aloneness.

              And therefore, Honor to my mind is best when it should have a fraternalism, a franchise and ease with others, a humility and thankfulness when it is presented to one, as gifts are given, and should be recieved, with Grace. For Honor without such is Honor without Love, and therefore, though still Honorable, is a hollow victory.

              Honor which hath no Grace nor Love to it is a rough mirror, as it reflects poorly on a person. Honor with Grace and Love is a nourishment to one's own soul, and an inspiration to those around them.

              One who has only an internal sense of Honor hath an Ethic, mayhaps indisputable and unassailable within their own mind. And yet this Ethic may not be supportive nor substantial to the society around them. And rather than be deemed just, they are seen as capricious and proudful to their own ways.

              Just as Law is a respect for the ways of the society and the rightful soveriegn Power of any demense. Therefore, those who break the Law are often held without Honor, as they have done disworshipfully to the victim of their crime in firstwise, or in disworship of the right rule of Law in any regard.

              This is also why a Judiciar is often given the honorific of being one "Honorable", as those who rule upon the Law must do so with Honor, often balancing it carefully with Wisdom and Mercy to produce fine Justice.

              One who hath Honor within and shows Honor to all, not as the self sees it, but as others would prefer to have it shown and displayed to them, shall often find in their fellow denizens, and even in the Fates and Fortunes themselves, allies.

              The path of Honor may be far from smooth or easy -- for those with the Heart of Disregard and Despite shall declare those with Honor ever sworn enemies. And yet, those with a Heart of Honor shall also find through their worship of others and the worship they recieve in return that such a path is paved and made ready for their passage to Glory.

              Again, in sum:
              • Admiration -- to look within oneself, or upon another -- is the way to show and to estimate Honorable worth. For to admire one recognizes them superior in some way: to have a worthiness that is found unique unto them, or to thyself, which is worth reflection upon. And yet, it is hazardous to admire oneself without also hearing the echo of the praise of others. And it is also hazardous to bask in false praise within one's own mind or from another, as this is flattery.
              • Favor -- to chose one above another of those possible subjects of thy attention. Tis a way to raise another upwards. But Favor always presumes some superior good is offered to be given to the Favored, else it is not a blessing but an obligation to recieve. So, favors generally are given by those above us. However, favors may be given by peers or those below us if they have something which we would hold as superior, either a kindness or skill or gift which is superior to or in addition to something we would have ourselves. Sometimes Favor is granted grudgingly as well. it might be felt an obligation to offer a Favor if it was unfairly earned. Likewise, a Favor called upon too often becomes an imposition, so one needs to be somewhat humble to rightly recieve it.
              • Friendship -- fair welcome and amicus -- raises both the giver and reciever, often in equal measure. Friendship is often the most balanced, and is the least self-aware and self-effacing of Honors to show. It is not jealous. One with Honor can ever raise their friends along with them, so that there is no jealousy or envy or despite. All are pleased by the rising of stations and advancement. They share what Honors they have with their friends just as they might share a deer caught in the hunt, or a goblet of wine around a table. Friendship itself is not Honor, but is often offered as one of the best gifts of an Honorable person, and is often the coin most valued by those with Honor.

              I leave it to each mind to deem whether what I say is true or false. I would not sway others to my way with unwelcome argumentation -- for that would be a form of dishonor of another's own way. I would not seek to dishonor others by naysaying their own mind. But this is what I feel is True. and Good, and Beautiful, and most like to bring Joy and pleasurable Concord about the subject as any interpretation.

              And those that I sway, I pray I sway gladly. And those that I do not sway, I hope I at least amuse by my naivete and faithfulness to such idealism. And those who are completely befuddled I pray they at lease endure me with good humor and patience, for again, I have been most long-winded. Elsewise, I pray my words offend others least.

              If a disputation before the Philosophers' would be welcome, I would be glad to participate. And if I am not invited, it is because we would not have enough time to listen to all I might have to say in the subject of Honor, for I have all the words which others might lack!

              (I apologize I have made such monopoly of them.)

              For Love! For Valor! For Honor! For Glory!

              -Ser Gareth.

              p.s. In response to a point made: If one did mislead another into believing they were a Watchman, then tis more than a broach of Honor, tis also a broachment of Law, which should be reported directly, to wit:

              "If any one shall impersonate Her Majesty's servants, or falsely claim authority from Her Majesty, let them suffer no more than 12 lashes and be exposed for no more than 5 days in the stocks."
              ~ Gareth Beaumains ~

              ~ For Love! For Valour!
              ~ For Honour! For Glory!
              ~ Onwards to Adventure!

              Comment


              • #22
                If I can manage to find the other posts under the book that ser Gareth has posted, it iwll be amazing. ser Gareth, while I appreciate your words on honor, might I suggest that the poor coark board can little take such a weighty tome? Brevity is teh soul of whit I have heard said. Might I request a summary for those who are incapable of wading through the flowery phrases, the excess verbage and such?

                Tis hard enough to discuss ideals and words wiht ser Morte. I am sure I can not manage to keep up with you in terms of verbal debate. But even simple swordspeople need to be able to understand your meanings ser.

                In defense of an honor understandable by all,

                Martel

                Comment


                • #23
                  Ser Gareth,

                  I will step forward as one who most vehemently does disagree with your definition of honor. Popularity is not a measure of honor. By your definition, it would seem that the man who holds favor and possesses many friends might be considered honorable, regardless of his private actions. I would assert that what is in one's heart matters far more than what is in the public's eye, especially as these may sometimes be in direct opposition.

                  While I grant you that honor, in the best of circumstances, does bring favor and friendship, I would assert that the latter is not necessarily any indicator whatsoever of the former. Some have honor without receiving any notice for it, as it is a quiet honor which does not demand attention. Some have little honor, but are rewarded with public approbation for other reasons.

                  In fact, I believe that the direct opposite of your position is sometimes true, for honor may require folk to make very hard decisions, decisions which others may not understand, and which may therefore earn them public censure.

                  Honor is a demanding, sometimes painful goal toward which some strive at any cost to themselves. Do not belittle it by measuring it by popularity.

                  In dedication to honor,
                  Viola

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Everyone read.

                    Originally posted by Morte

                    Have I ever wounded the unarmed?
                    Nay

                    Have I lied?
                    Funny you should ask that. No.
                    You have lied just now Ser Morte. About six to seven days ago Ser Morbidro came to me proclaiming that you lifted him off the ground by the collar of his shirt and dropped him from that hieght. He told me that he suffered a bruised rib for two days after. He also tells me, from what I can understand, that you lied to Sera Punzel and that he will be dueling you for it.

                    I suggest you keep your hands off the innocent when you get mad Ser Morte. He told me that he doesn't want you arrested, but that he will decide it in the duel. Next time you won't be so lucky for the assualt of an unarmed harmless citizen.

                    Watchman Arikon~
                    ~For the Glory and Honor of our Queen~

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Arikon:

                      Yes, I lifted him. I never wounded him. Many where present, and none would say I wounded him.

                      And I hold, that I have not lied, else I would not be deuling the boy.


                      If ser Morbido wishes to speak, let him, otherwise, Arikon, I suggest remove yourself from that situation as it does not concearn you.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Ser Morte
                        I would remind you complaints made to the Winter Watch are very much our responsibility to follow up on; and we must make sure that guests of Her Majesty understand that assault is not tolerated.
                        Since the matter refered to by Watchman Arikon is to be resolved by a duel you avoid arrest. That may not always be the case however. You tred on a high and narrow catwalk ser; take care not to fall!
                        Watchwoman Judith
                        "I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings"
                        ~ Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Punzel
                          Ser Gareth,

                          I will step forward as one who most vehemently does disagree with your definition of honor. Popularity is not a measure of honor. By your definition, it would seem that the man who holds favor and possesses many friends might be considered honorable, regardless of his private actions. I would assert that what is in one's heart matters far more than what is in the public's eye, especially as these may sometimes be in direct opposition.

                          While I grant you that honor, in the best of circumstances, does bring favor and friendship, I would assert that the latter is not necessarily any indicator whatsoever of the former. Some have honor without receiving any notice for it, as it is a quiet honor which does not demand attention. Some have little honor, but are rewarded with public approbation for other reasons.

                          In fact, I believe that the direct opposite of your position is sometimes true, for honor may require folk to make very hard decisions, decisions which others may not understand, and which may therefore earn them public censure.

                          Honor is a demanding, sometimes painful goal toward which some strive at any cost to themselves. Do not belittle it by measuring it by popularity.

                          In dedication to honor,
                          Viola
                          Ser Gareth,

                          While I am not as vehemently opposed to your definition as sera Viola, I nevertheless agree with her position. Honour is not about doing what is popular, but what you feel in your heart to be right. This may in fact be the unpopular choice, but an honourable person will not let that sway them from the path of true Honour.

                          As has been mentioned numerous times, each person has their own definition of honour, and I am no different. But if I were to try and define it simply, then I would say that honour is to deal with everyone in the same way in which you would have them deal with you.

                          If the Philosophy group does wish to discuss Honour, I would also be more than pleased to attend (and I would suggest that it would be a good place for prospective Duelists to learn more of their potential kindred).

                          Respectfully
                          Davog
                          Counsellor and Duelist

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Watchwoman Judith:

                            I care not for your threats.

                            I know well the capitulary.

                            I know well you think you watch me.

                            I remain,

                            Comment


                            • #29

                              Without meaning to impugn any of the previous definitions posited, I wish to share some of my own thoughts:

                              Honor is not synonymous with kindness. The maintenance of honor requires hard decisions which will cause pain, physically and emotionally, to yourself and others.

                              Honor is not synonymous with martyrdom. Though it may require self sacrifice, it does require self respect and self worth. More directly: you have at least as much responsibility to yourself as you do to others; for if you cannot take care of yourself, how are you going to be of use to anyone else?

                              Honor is not synonymous with panurgy. It does not require you to be an island unto yourself. No one can do everything, seek help where it is required.

                              Honor is not synonymous with perfection. No one is perfect. Nor should anyone be expected to be perfect. Admit your mistakes, and learn from them.

                              Honor is not synonymous with lawfulness. The pursuit of honor may necessitate transgressing legal boundaries: consider the position set forth by Lord Sicard in the Knight's Challenge.

                              Honor is not a quality or a virtue.

                              Honor is a code, that requires hard work and perseverance.

                              And honor is different things to different people.

                              Look first to live up to your own standards.

                              -Deirdre

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Sera Dierdre.


                                Your words are eloquent, well possessed of wisdome, and very welcome.


                                Thank you for your most enlightening passages here on this wall.


                                I remain,

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