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A Public Missive with Regards to Rank and Leavetaking

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  • A Public Missive with Regards to Rank and Leavetaking


    A Public Missive with Regards to Rank and Leavetaking
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    As of late, a discussion in the courtyard prompted a request to pen a Chronicle with regards to etiquette and rank; and after much querying I humbly pen this missive in the hopes that some clarification might be thusly obtained. The discussion entailed the exiting of a room with those of rank present, and under what circumstances such is needful. After asking about and studying texts on etiquette, I did not find a clear answer (although many wise opinions on the matter were offered), so I am directing this publically in hopes that such might be officially known on behalf of myself and the others present in the courtyard when such was inquired of.

    With regards to asking for leave, I have assessed the advisements down to the following:

    It is appropriate to ask that leave be given whene'er anyone of a higher rank is present in the room;

    It is appropriate to ask that leave be given whene'er anyone of a higher rank is present in the room excepting Honored Guests;.

    It is appropriate to ask that leave be given only if the higher rank is a member of the 8th link or above;

    Circumstantially:

    It is necessary only if you are directly engaged in a conversation with them;

    It is appropriate when in a room for a given period. but not if merely passing through;

    It is always necessary.


    Of the above I am asking which is considered most proper?


    Mind, the only referencing I can find to asking for leave at all is in a public missive posted by sera Viola, dated Sixth Moon, Seventh Day that states:

    When leaving the Royal Court, if a general dismissal has not been commanded, one should ask Lord Chamberlain Launfal -- or his representative -- for permission to depart.

    I believe this same wording exists within the etiquette books as well.

    I have deferred to all those of a higher rank even when passing in the halls, believing that to be recognition of their appointment by the Queen; but do not ask leave of Honored Guests, for example. There is need to be clear on when such a courtesy is expected so that none are offended and the proper respect is extended in accordance with Her Majesty's wishes; whilst not needlessly disturbing others involved in conversation if one is but passing through.

    In thanks,

    Sorcha Du D'nan
    Junior Chronicler
    The yoke or the throne?

  • #2
    It was my understanding that the practice of leavetaking is to show respect for those higher in the chain than yourself. It allows the higher ranked person to be sure to get some of your time, instead of having the lower ranked go rushing past all of the time.

    Secondly, it shows the respect that we all feel toward those above us. Would you rush from a knight's presence when they were seeking to speak with you.

    Now, in a crowded and large area, suchas the outer courtyard, I can imagine a simple bow and pause toward the one of higher rank. But in a more constrained space, such as the dinning hall, it would seem meet to at least ask permission.

    With the greatest respect for those honored by her Majesty,

    Martel

    Comment


    • #3
      It is appropriate to ask that leave be given whene'er anyone of a higher rank is present in the room excepting Honored Guests
      I find that I must weigh in, as the phrase is so grossly put, upon this matter, for it is of some concern to me.

      Although I am but lowly in the scheme of the Great Chain of Being, I must ask why any guest should feel it unnecessary to ask my leave--if even of merest common courtesy, leaving out my status as an honor'd guest of Her Majesty--when I am trying to conduct a class for the Dancing Academy or offering instruction with the blade in my capacity as a Duelist?

      And while I certainly wish no disrespect to the magnificent and wonderful First Acolyte, who has always been a pillar of support to the Academy of Dance, I must point out that many decide to leave in the midst of my classes, asking only her leave and barely giving me more than a nod for my trouble! Have I not done, have my instructors not done, our part to improve the lives of the Outer Bailey by our efforts, putting forward new dances near every week of the guild's existence, to be worthy of so much as a 'by your leave' when leaving is unexpectedly and inexplicably desir'd?

      Perhaps it is this all-too-common lack of courtesy which shall in future incline me less and less to share new creations with the Outer Bailey's residents and more for those Noble souls who truly appreciate artistic effort and the exertion necessary to meet and offer humble instruction each week. I would not lightly do so, but with each person who sees fit to stumble forth from my classes, whilst I or my instructors endeavor to teach something new, without politely asking my leave, I am further tempted to this course.
      ~~ Master Sansamor, Her Majesty's Speaker ~~

      Comment


      • #4
        After reviewing further texts of etiquette, It should be noted that on the fourth page sera Viola's book "The Social Structure of Her Majesty Queen Vivienne's Honored Castle Marrach" is found:

        When leaving the company of someone of superior rank, it is considered courteous to ask their permission to depart.
        One wouldst assume this to be the final word, unless a representative of the courtesy circle should deem otherwise.

        In addition, I thank all who kindly replied to this missive, and consider the matter closed with regards to penning a chronicle of such, unless I am advised otherwise.

        Grammarcy,

        Sorcha
        The yoke or the throne?

        Comment


        • #5
          I would like to add that, as a custom, guests of the 11th rank do not have to ask leave of those of the 10th rank. The 10th rank includes Honored Guests, Armsmen of the Winter Watch, and Favored Students of the Royal Collegium. This is how the Outer Bailey has been in all the time I have been Awake. If a person is above the 10th rank I advise requesting permission to leave if you are below them in rank.

          As for ser Sansamor's suggestion... I believe that asking for leave from an instructor or lecturer, or anyone else holding an event is a different manner. Asking permission to leave from someone of higher rank is a formal act of courtesy. Asking permission to leave from an instructor is an informal act, and a utilitarian one. What I mean by this is that it is best to ask for leave in order to ensure that you are not disrupting the event, and to show gratitude to the person who is holding the event. It is not the same as asking someone of a superior position leave to go in deference to their rank.

          Were I to attend one of ser Sansamor's dance classes, for example, and if the First Acolyte were present, I would first ask ser Sansamor permission to leave his lesson, explaining my reason for going, and thanking him for allowing me to attend. I would then ask the First Acolyte permission to leave her presence as an act of formal courtesy. As you see, they are different matters. The first action is asking permission to leave the event, and giving thanks to the person holding it, something that even someone much higher above in rank should perform. The second action is asking permission to leave a person's presence, and is a formal action done in deference to rank.

          I agree with ser Sansamor in that asking permission from an instructor or someone similar seems courteous, and should be done (especially if one wishes to be instructed again in the future). However, if a person of high rank is at the event, they should not be ignored (not that I suggest that ser Sansamor ever meant this, I place this as a reminder). And I do not believe it is the same thing as asking leave from a superior. It is a different kind of courtesy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Blade
            I would like to add that, as a custom, guests of the 11th rank do not have to ask leave of those of the 10th rank. The 10th rank includes Honored Guests, Armsmen of the Winter Watch, and Favored Students of the Royal Collegium. This is how the Outer Bailey has been in all the time I have been Awake. If a person is above the 10th rank I advise requesting permission to leave if you are below them in rank.
            I would not that while this has been the way of things, I would think that most o this comes from the times when the Inner Bailey was barred from even Honor Guests, and it was almost impossible to tell the ranks of each guest, as many did wear clothes from the first Ball.

            Now, I would expect each and every rank to respect that above them. If those of the 11th ask not the 10th. Need not the 10th ask the 9th?

            With hope of instruction from the Court,

            Martel

            Comment


            • #7
              Scribed by Martel: I would expect each and every rank to respect that above them. If those of the 11th ask not the 10th. Need not the 10th ask the 9th?
              It was explained to me that Honored Guests represent Her Majesty's favor rather than rank; and that to ask leave of them is considered inappropriate and a slight to those who are higher ranked with regard to station.

              This is not practiced in any that I have witnessed, and if such art true, wouldst the courtesy circle be good enough to advise? It would behoove me greatly to feel I am slighting those a formal act of courtesy rightly due them.

              In humble service,
              Sorcha
              The yoke or the throne?

              Comment


              • #8
                This is false, actually. Honored Guests reside on the 10th Link of the Great Chain of Being, therefore they do have actual rank equal to that of an Armsman or a Favored Student. They do not simply have favor. If this is untrue, then I will edit and repost the Great Chain of Being with the correction showing Honored Guests to be at the 11th Link with guests who do not possess rank.

                Also, Mistress Ermengarde, her apprentices, and others who provide special goods for Honored Guests must be informed that the previous information publically posted by Royal Page Heward was incorrect, and that Honored Guests are no longer able to have access to special items. As Mistress Ermengarde once told me, "If you do not have any official rank, then you receive nothing different from myself or my apprentices".

                Comment


                • #9
                  My Lords, Ladies, and other Guests of Castle Marrach: In my duties, I travel all about the castle, meeting many persons. While it would no doubt be of great interest to know who one is *required* to bow to, and ask leave of, I find it far less tiring to treat all, down to the veriest lackey, with at least the courtesy I would myself expect. It causes no harm, and breaks no rules, to bow to Her Majesty's hard-working couriers, servants, and guardsmen -- if only to acknowledge their own courtesy. I make it a point to ask to be excused from any private gathering, or group I have found myself in conversation with, when I want to depart; of course, this request would be addressed to the person of highest social rank present. In truth, if the gathering be large, and no one within it is of higher rank than myself, I usually make a general request ("If you will all escuse me, sers and seras?), and might not wait for a specific response.

                  Obviously, when meeting persons in a corridor or courtyard, a nod or bow in recognition is probably sufficient.

                  I can claim no special knowledge of courtesy nor of court etiquette; but I hope that my ways have never given offense either.

                  Ser Athos
                  Keeper of the Keys
                  Michael Blum
                  (former) Game Developer at Skotos Tech

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