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  • Heresy

    I initially thought about commenting in the crime boars but decided to write on forums:

    According to the information I found in the ironclad sourcebook, Triskelian does not have heresy laws and many religions are worshiped in cit more or less openly. Even tho S'allumar is prevailing religion, others are not actively prosecuted. ( which lies with the fact that the whole setting is trying to be a renaissance era society - usually the religious difference will only be mentioned if political capital can be gained ( this is actually something that kind of confuses me in ico - all materials I found regarding Ironclaw suggest the setting is renaissance with magic, while ICO seems to push toward medieval with magic

    However, returning to the issue: I did found Biscvarlet religion is officially S'alumer, and church membership is prescribed by law, but many do not obey and worshiping may older religions (for example Doloreux are openly Lutaran)


    Additionally, this is clearly not a case of Heresy: heresy would be proclaiming new doctrines within S'alumer faith. in this case, it would be apostasy (abandoning one religion to accept another)(from wiki: is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular, the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs.[1] Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one's religion(cut the blasphemy part as it clearly does not relate here)

    The "crime" also wouldn't be of interest of the City itself: this is not on the interest of constabulary. A member of the church could raise an issue, but even there this would be internal isse of Biscvarlet Embassy and the Church

  • #2
    The Constabulary have a set list of charges that we are to bring people up on by request of any citizen
    or by us ourselves having witnessed it. One of those charges is heresy and as described in our records a minor
    charge of heresy includes lingering in a forbidden Lutaran grove which all are.

    The game world is not the same as the world in the books. As much as it tries to be.
    In game, S'allumer is the only religion not outlawed in the city of Triskellian.
    It has always been that way and likely will remain. At least I hope it does. Church
    persecution is super fun conflict to play out most of the time.


    "Focus on the small, good things in your life. See them
    as little fireflies in the darkness surrounding you. Gather them up and put them in a jar and you'll
    have a nice nightlight to keep the darkness at bay."

    -----------------------------

    Noah, Adiza, Dru, Tobias
    Once played Mattimeo (Matt), Drosnan, Seened, Patrick

    Comment


    • #3
      On this, you should arrest whole dolo embassy. Lutara is state religion for them. And on the fun of conflict I beg to differ, but this is personal preference.

      Comment


      • #4
        In ICO it's a known but not acted upon fact that the Dolo are largely Lutarans.
        I imagine because the Church doesn't want a holy war with a House of firearms that
        calls the mountains home. Outwardly though the Dolo support S'allumer to appease
        the Church in game lore. Really, the book is good to learn the histories and things of
        Calabria but a lot of the details are different in game.
        "Focus on the small, good things in your life. See them
        as little fireflies in the darkness surrounding you. Gather them up and put them in a jar and you'll
        have a nice nightlight to keep the darkness at bay."

        -----------------------------

        Noah, Adiza, Dru, Tobias
        Once played Mattimeo (Matt), Drosnan, Seened, Patrick

        Comment


        • #5
          http://wp.skotos.net/ironclaw/2018/0...leplay-guides/

          Also helpful!!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            http://forum.skotos.net/forum/our-ga...ions#post94770

            This one too. I really enjoyed this one.

            Comment


            • #7
              Monophysisme - Banned heresy of S'Allumer
              Espiga Anonimo, Tergiversator, no fixed address
              "Psst! Don't listen to them! The founders of the S'Allumer faith were really from another world! It's true! We monephysismites are the keepers of the true manuscripts that they're trying to hide from you!"


              This is an excellent example. This is an unorthodox sect of the Main church, which keeps base belief ( S'Allumer) and changes some core tenets ( founers-> alines) .whatmakes is heresy, is that main church felt t hi is too radical/dangerous to them/a way to get rid of powerful opponent to declare it to be a heresy.

              But Lutara is not an S'alumer derivate, it is separate ( and older faith) as such case should be called apostasy, or blasphemy (if an accused person is not, in fact, changing faith, but instead church law forbids faithful to enter another religions place of faith ( however in discussed case it would work another way - Infidel ( S'alumer church member) entering a holy Lutheran place could be blasphemous against Lutara


              @AltoholicI feel like you are defending your actions and yourself, while in fact I am attacking neither you nor your action, just am annoyed deeply by using the wrong term. What I am also attacking is inconsistencies in setting

              For example is the grove itself offends church - it would have been destroyed, burned and turned into a chapel of the church. Its existence is illogical. It might have a sense for a while when it was secret ( for example) but moment it became known to church - it would be destroyed.

              ( i have much more against the setting which I find illogical, but this is something that I would discuss somewhere around a beer honestly, as i am really lazy - unless I get bored at work again )

              Why am I annoyed - because illogical inconsistencies in social setting break my immersion ( and I do tend to really immerse in RPGs)

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not really defending myself though I can understand why it would come across that
                way. I have a deep love for this game and the setting in game. So I guess I come
                across as defensive. I'm sure the laws will be reviewed at some point and the wording changed
                or what have you.

                On the topic of the grove though you have to take things into account out of character too.
                The grove is the only one of its kind that is readily available to the general public. So to
                destroy it would take away from the players that want to explore practicing Lutara in secret.
                Most I've met enjoy the outlawed aspect of the religion. It adds intrigue to an otherwise
                mundane aspect of a character. Conflict breeds good story. If Bilbo had stayed in the shire
                The Hobbit would have been a very dull book.
                "Focus on the small, good things in your life. See them
                as little fireflies in the darkness surrounding you. Gather them up and put them in a jar and you'll
                have a nice nightlight to keep the darkness at bay."

                -----------------------------

                Noah, Adiza, Dru, Tobias
                Once played Mattimeo (Matt), Drosnan, Seened, Patrick

                Comment


                • #9
                  But what is the point of the secret shrine that everyone knows about? Just logically speaking.its just a trap to annoy people now.

                  And returning to my point heresy laws are 1 thing, but what happened was not a heresy. Apostasy, blasphemy, entering forbidden area maybe - but not heresy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We as constables don't camp spots like that so it's not really a trap. The only reason I tagged Morven was
                    because Dakota was in the area looking for muggers to shuttle off the gaol. I don't disagree with what you're saying
                    really just giving my point of view and stuff. I also agree that it probably shouldn't be part of the heresy laws.
                    I imagine the laws will be changed sooner rather than later.

                    Also, I'm not leaving the game. Calabria Chat is IC chatter on the forums. Dallas just
                    left the city.
                    "Focus on the small, good things in your life. See them
                    as little fireflies in the darkness surrounding you. Gather them up and put them in a jar and you'll
                    have a nice nightlight to keep the darkness at bay."

                    -----------------------------

                    Noah, Adiza, Dru, Tobias
                    Once played Mattimeo (Matt), Drosnan, Seened, Patrick

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I actually thought about the wonderful analogy, and I decided to write anyway.

                      Let's assume that orthodox religion is pizza Margherita: Simple and popular. Add some bacon and mushrooms, and you have a heterodox sect. A bit different, but acceptable. Now add pineapple and you have a heresy: the result is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. And if S'allumer is pizza, than lutara in this analogy will be Shepard's pie. A different dish If you switch from pizza to Shepard's pie its an apostasy. A blasphemy would be saying that you should not eat pizza because it is bad for your health. ^^ After some thought: a schism would be taking the pizza without paying, or maybe making your own restaurant on the opposite side of the road, that offers almost same pizza, but made by "more proper"chef

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI
                      Last edited by Lamhirh; 12-11-2018, 07:25 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Altoholic View Post
                        We as constables don't camp spots like that so it's not really a trap. The only reason I tagged Morven was
                        because Dakota was in the area looking for muggers to shuttle off the gaol.
                        Actually, Dakota came along into the park just after Morven had gone into the grove to water the plants, and the entrance to the grove was still open, so Dakota wound up in there. Then, this happened:

                        Dakota arrives through the southern path.

                        OOC -- Dakota says, "Ignor"

                        OOC -- Dakota says, "There was an exit for some reason"

                        Dakota leaves through the southern path.

                        Morven watered, pruned, then turned and left. Not sure how long that takes, because it is a spam automated activity, meaning, a gardener tilts their watering can, and all of the plants and potted plants in the area are watered. Same with the shears. It is a fairly quick process, however, it just takes time to run down the individual plants. When she left the grove, immediately after tending the plants, Dakota was hanging around outside, sitting on the swing, dangling his hooves and doing nothing. Dakota did not say a word to Morven to ask her what she was doing, or let her know that he was curious about her activity, and in fact, all they did was talk about the weather, which was so cold that Dakota had his face bundled up and he was speaking muffledly through a scarf...while he sat on a swing in a park on the waterfront. I would have felt better about the entire situation had it been dealt with immediately, IC, instead of the whole OOC "ignore" request, because it does look kind of suspicious (to me, at least) that he was sitting around in the bitterly, freezing, cold, dangling his hooves on a swing....supposedly "people watching." (Probably not a place I would expect to see someone "people watching," as there are not a lot of passers-by down there.)

                        As an aside, I know it looks weird to see the gardener folks watering plants and pruning them in the rain or snow, but the plants in ICO do not recognise that they are being watered, and that it is the depths of winter and they should not be growing, so, these tasks must continue, or the plants do get withered and sad.

                        All of that being said, the situation is where it is, and I feel like we are moving forward appropriately with what we have.


                        ~Lady Morven Adalhard

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Right, I was going to handle this privately but since that doesn't work I'll actively defend myself here.


                          Originally posted by Morven View Post
                          Dakota arrives through the southern path.

                          OOC -- Dakota says, "Ignor"

                          OOC -- Dakota says, "There was an exit for some reason"

                          Dakota leaves through the southern path.
                          I did this because I wasn't sure if the entrance existing was supposed to happen. It wasn't until testing
                          later that I realized that the entrance stays open for a short time after someone enters. I still disregarded
                          me entering because it felt OOC to me. I didn't, however, want to lose the chance for work as a
                          Constable. So I -did-, as a player, decide to sit outside for a few minutes. This however is not out of character for
                          Dakota. He regularly goes to that spot to watch for people taking bodies to the swamp after the Valdus case.
                          He also goes down into the sewers, out to the beach/meadow/and cave, and other less traveled
                          places within the city to check for bodies and/or crimes. I don't take a passive role when I play a Constable.
                          I see no point in playing one if you're just going to stand at the courier and wait for people to report
                          crimes to you. Even if it's just dealing with muggers I do something. He does all of this in the cold
                          because it's his job. Not that anyone ever says anything about all of the people that stand at
                          the courier for hours in the freezing cold.

                          On the topic of watering plants, unless a character is a speedster they're not taking care of plants in the handful
                          of seconds it takes to spam the commands. ICly it has to take longer than a few seconds, even for a
                          master gardener.

                          Dakota didn't talk with Morven when she first came out for two reasons. ICly it's because confronting nobles
                          doing criminal things can be very dangerous. OOCly it's because it was my first case since coming back
                          and I was hella anxious. I'm medicated and go to therapy for anxiety so it's something I have to deal
                          with often in this game.

                          Dakota waited as long as he did to post the case because I was waiting on staff to get back to me. I assisted
                          about the case because I was afraid something would happen to the grove over this crime. I didn't want to
                          take the location away from Lutaran players just because of a minor case. So I was waiting to hear back from them
                          before I posted the crime.

                          Having to defend myself like this sucks. Having a post on the forums calling me out OOCly sucks. My reputation
                          feels absolutely attacked and honestly I've not even wanted to log in and RP since this was posted. I've
                          been with this game since 2010-11 and I've never had something like this happen to me nor have I seen it happen
                          to anyone else on the forums. If a player has an issue with a situation or another player OOCly they should
                          assist about it not put them on blast. So that's my piece. I'll not be responding to this post again because
                          everything about this entire situation has made me feel terrible and like I'm not wanted. Thanks
                          to whoever reads this, I know it's a lot to work through.
                          Last edited by Altoholic; 12-14-2018, 04:07 PM.
                          "Focus on the small, good things in your life. See them
                          as little fireflies in the darkness surrounding you. Gather them up and put them in a jar and you'll
                          have a nice nightlight to keep the darkness at bay."

                          -----------------------------

                          Noah, Adiza, Dru, Tobias
                          Once played Mattimeo (Matt), Drosnan, Seened, Patrick

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Altoholic View Post
                            Right, I was going to handle this privately but since that doesn't work I'll actively defend myself here.
                            I am really not sure why you feel you are needing to defend yourself, nobody in this thread, or in ICO, has attacked you or your character. I just posted a snipped of our interaction to clarify how the situation unfolded, and believe me, it was not meant as a slap in the fact to you, or anything you did. If you interpreted it that way, I am sorry for the confusion.

                            BTW, I wrote you privately, before you responded here, letting you know that there are no hard feelings, and that all was good. Morven also sent Dakota a scroll thanking him for his professional handling of the situation, and letting him know that she was sure that the city would be safer with him around. I am posting that info here, because you said you had not logged him in, and so I am not even sure if you have checked your messages here, or scrolls in game.

                            Take care...


                            ~Lady Morven Adalhard

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I Just wrote it because I don't believe this is a case of heresy - heresy requires someone speaking up a belief that forks from the core belief of faith. In this case, there could be many offences committed at that instance, but not heresy - and that was a point wanted to ... well, point out.

                              Comment

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