Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Marriage! (rules, administrivia, and advantages) - also sexism! Yay!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Marriage! (rules, administrivia, and advantages) - also sexism! Yay!

    Hey guys,

    So, the staff back-channels have been abuzz with talk of marriage. The birds and the bees. All that jazz.

    Mostly we've been discussing how to handle marriage in the setting, due to the city being strongly controlled by the church (even though there isn't an overwhelming PC influence in the church) - while taking into account OOC considerations about players wanting to RP with each other, players going idle, etc.

    Mostly, while this will be set down as rules, it's so that we're all on the same page, and have the same opinions about divorce, how much the church controls marriage, what marriage means etc. - while there will be OOC discussions as part of the rules, use them as a guide for what the IC rules would be.

    There are also social advantages (and disadvantages) to marriage, and we wanted to find a fair way to give those to the players.

    Marriage (and a related topic - affairs) is also strongly tied to gender, which brings up topics of sexism. Now, let me be very clear on this point. I do not want to encourage any sexism between the *players* - I do not want any of the players to feel that their gender (or the opposite gender) is being relegated to any sort of "second class" status. However, I do want *differences* between the genders. A man (in a sexist, rigid society like this) should be *different* to a woman. They should have both opportunities and disadvantages that the other gender does not have. Hopefully we will manage to keep that balance to no gender is "better" than the other.

    Ok. So... on with the rules!

    How do you get into a marriage, and what does it mean?
    1) The church of S'allumer has an extremely strong influence over society, and an even stronger influence over marriage. Without an *exceptional* reason, there are no divorces. Unless your partner dies or goes missing, you cannot re-marry.
    2) Yes. Actually no divorces. Not even more most extreme situations. If your partner tries to murder you, or you never want to see each other, then you can live separately, work separately, never see each other. But would still be officially married.
    3) Although it is unlikely that there will be a divorce, marriages can be annulled. Annulling a marriage is a statement from the church that the marriage was never legal in the first place (so it's not actually a divorce, since the marriage never happened.) - This would happen in situations where it is discovered that the marriage shouldn't have happened. An example may be a noble who quickly marries their sweetheart to avoid an arranged marriage. Or a couple who were discovered to have been married with a heathen Lutarist ritual instead of a holy S'allumer ritual.
    4) If you marry a noble (above knight's rank), you can pay storypoints (50 to 100 depending on your species) to gain the rank of a knight and the title "Lord" or "Lady" - if you marry a knight you gain the rank of gentry. You can choose not to pay the points, and will still be referred to as "Lord" or "Lady" but not get the in-game title or extra income (but will still be promoted to gentry). The record house also will list you as gentry instead of knight's rank (when we have the record house set up) - while you are married you can pay the points to make it "official" - it will be represented by you being granted bluebooked lands to guarantee your income and status.
    5) When the code permits, we will allow married couples to share a room. Dating couples will not be given this option.
    6) Although favor will be tied to your partner, you do not have to RP with them if you don't want to. Affairs, if not made public, would be perfectly acceptable.
    7) Marriage is most important for the higher ranks. The marriage only has to be official if one or both of the partners is gentry level or above. (Commoners can, of course, have a church-sponsored wedding anyway.) If the church did not conduct the marriage, they could declare a marriage annulled should they have reason to do so. The church should also charge for the wedding (either just the priest charging for their time, or perhaps a donation to the church as a whole, as well as the priest charging for their time.)

    How do you get out of a marriage?
    We don't want to force players to RP a partner who is no longer playing the game. If they are no longer active, it is possible to end the marriage.
    1) Should a character's player go idle, their partner may publicly declare themselves to be "grieving" - after a week, if their partner has not returned, and after their partner has been idle for two month, the marriage would be declared over (partner missing, presumed dead. Or partner declared neglectful etc.)
    This means that the partner's player has to be idle from the game for two months, and not respond to the public statement of grieving. Their character may not be logged in, but while the player is active (even if they are playing alts) the marriage remains.
    2) If their partner dies, and is not going to be resurrected, then they may declare themselves grieving for two month's time before they may start courting again.

    What's all this about sexism?
    On the sexism (and gender-ism) front:
    1) It is more acceptable for men to have affairs with commoners (but they still shouldn't allow it to become public if it can be avoided) - but females will likely suffer greater consequences should their affairs become public. Responses to affairs should be no greater than responses to relationships outside of marriage. Both are theoretically inappropriate, but both happen.
    2) Although homosexual relationships exist, homosexual marriages do not.
    3) Unless they state it openly, there is no assumption of lesbians or gay relationships amongst females - this means that two females could publicly hold hands, kiss on the cheeks etc. and it wouldn't be assumed that they are lovers (which could be assumed if two men did that) - but it would NOT be appropriate to publicly kiss on the lips, tell people that you are lovers, etc.
    4) It is not be appropriate for men to hire "personal" female servants, or female servants whos duties often leave them alone with the male noble. It is perfectly acceptable to have a female scribe for the house as a whole, that is often used by a male noble. It isn't appropriate for her to be "his" scribe. Female nobles can have both male and female personal servants. Male personal servants would be referred to as "your man" but female personal servants wouldn't be "your lady" they would be "handmaidens." Personal servants would owe their loyalty to their lord or lady first. Non-personal servants could have any number of roles in the house, and would owe their loyalty (theoretically) to the house first (but could actually owe it to any superior in the house.)

    What about arranged marriages?
    Arranged marriages are very appropriate for the era (and part of the reason why a blind eye is turned to affairs that are kept discrete)
    Arranged marriages could happen for many reasons, such as political alliances, a way to increase wealth in the family, to keep an unruly person in line, to increase the reputation by having a partner, for social or financial protection etc.
    There is also the obvious in-game benefit of an increase in rank.

    The plotters may have a few fun plots (political or otherwise) about arranged marriages up their sleeves.
    If you think that would be a cool plot, and if you are interested in your character being involved in an arranged marriage, please @assist.
    Include:
    1) That the assist is for Eos, about arranged marriages
    2) Which of your characters you are happy to have in an arranged marriage
    3) What rank the character is, and why someone might organize an arranged marriage for them (make the plotters life easier when setting up the story)
    4) A list of any players or characters you would NOT like to be paired with
    5) Any other information.

    Bear in mind that there won't always be a good match for your character, there may not be time for the plotters to run something about your character, there may not be a good reason for your character to be involved in a marriage, or there may just be more volunteers than they need.

    I'll give an example. Anyone remember that otter page boy from alpha? Imagine he was my PC.

    @assist "Attention EOS: Hi, I'm interested in a plot about arranged marriages. My character is the otter page boy. He's the normal peasant rank, but as a page boy he works for the Rinaldi, so I was thinking that maybe someone in the Rinaldi would pay attention to their employees and arrange matches for them (maybe with other Rinaldi, other citizens, or members of the other houses) - I don't expect him to be married to anyone very high ranked (but if you want to do that, that would be cool!). I don't want to be matched with Malvolio's player, or Clayton's player. I know they are both male, but I don't know what alts they play. Additionally, I enjoy working as a page for the Rinaldi, so I'd rather not be matched to someone who would stop me being a page. Thanks!

    Cheers!

    Post questions and/or discussions!
    Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

  • #2
    Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
    Hey guys,

    3) Although it is unlikely that there will be a divorce, marriages can be annulled. Annulling a marriage is a statement from the church that the marriage was never legal in the first place (so it's not actually a divorce, since the marriage never happened.) - This would happen in situations where it is discovered that the marriage shouldn't have happened. An example may be a noble who quickly marries their sweetheart to avoid an arranged marriage. Or a couple who were discovered to have been married with a heathen Lutarist ritual instead of a holy S'allumer ritual.
    I would imagine the church could be "persuaded" to annul marriages for those with sufficient wealth/influence as well, no?
    4) If you marry a noble (above knight's rank), you can pay storypoints (50 to 100 depending on your species) to gain the rank of a knight and the title "Lord" or "Lady" - if you marry a knight you gain the rank of gentry. You can choose not to pay the points, and will still be referred to as "Lord" or "Lady" but not get the in-game title or extra income (but will still be promoted to gentry). The record house also will list you as gentry instead of knight's rank (when we have the record house set up) - while you are married you can pay the points to make it "official" - it will be represented by you being granted bluebooked lands to guarantee your income and status.
    What happens if nobles "marry up?" Do their lands increase? Do they get a new title? Is this something that would be worked out in marriage negotiations?

    Do marital promotions cost House tokens?

    7) Marriage is most important for the higher ranks. The marriage only has to be official if one or both of the partners is gentry level or above. (Commoners can, of course, have a church-sponsored wedding anyway.)
    You're saying Commoners can claim to be married at any point and time? Just checking in case it is ever relevant.

    If so, I imagine they can "divorce" at any time as well?

    4) It is not be appropriate for men to hire "personal" female servants, or female servants whos duties often leave them alone with the male noble. It is perfectly acceptable to have a female scribe for the house as a whole, that is often used by a male noble. It isn't appropriate for her to be "his" scribe. Female nobles can have both male and female personal servants. Male personal servants would be referred to as "your man" but female personal servants wouldn't be "your lady" they would be "handmaidens." Personal servants would owe their loyalty to their lord or lady first. Non-personal servants could have any number of roles in the house, and would owe their loyalty (theoretically) to the house first (but could actually owe it to any superior in the house.)
    Two questions that pertain to me specifically:

    What about female slaves that a noble man might own? Would it be looked down upon for a female slave to spend time alone with a male noble, or would slaves not even be considered, as they are well....just slaves.

    Also, Eberhard has already ICly hired a female as his personal assistant (and I can't live without her! :P). It is ok to just retcon that she is a scribe for the House, or what do we do ICly about that?

    What about arranged marriages?
    Arranged marriages are very appropriate for the era (and part of the reason why a blind eye is turned to affairs that are kept discrete)
    Arranged marriages could happen for many reasons, such as political alliances, a way to increase wealth in the family, to keep an unruly person in line, to increase the reputation by having a partner, for social or financial protection etc.
    There is also the obvious in-game benefit of an increase in rank.
    This was something I was curious about before. What is the deal with Inter-House marriages. We know that in the real world, political matches were made all the time between different Houses or Governments.

    But we are different species. Could a Boar and a Fox marry, for example? (We all know that Tamara and Emilia are fighting over the rights to Eberhard.)
    Sir Eberhard Delhomme von Doloreaux, Bart.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
      4) It is not be appropriate for men to hire "personal" female servants, or female servants whos duties often leave them alone with the male noble. It is perfectly acceptable to have a female scribe for the house as a whole, that is often used by a male noble. It isn't appropriate for her to be "his" scribe. Female nobles can have both male and female personal servants. Male personal servants would be referred to as "your man" but female personal servants wouldn't be "your lady" they would be "handmaidens." Personal servants would owe their loyalty to their lord or lady first. Non-personal servants could have any number of roles in the house, and would owe their loyalty (theoretically) to the house first (but could actually owe it to any superior in the house.)
      Eeep.... well, I've got the same sort of problem as Eberhard. Sarai is currently employed as Sir Matteo's bodyservant, which of course means that she -does- have duties that involve her being alone with him. Any suggestions on what can be done to deal with that? Should we change my position to just a regular servant, or just keep it the way it is and deal with whatever may come up because of it?
      Lianette Cloudspinner (nee Ashebrook)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
        Hey guys,

        4) If you marry a noble (above knight's rank), you can pay storypoints (50 to 100 depending on your species) to gain the rank of a knight and the title "Lord" or "Lady" - if you marry a knight you gain the rank of gentry. You can choose not to pay the points, and will still be referred to as "Lord" or "Lady" but not get the in-game title or extra income (but will still be promoted to gentry). The record house also will list you as gentry instead of knight's rank (when we have the record house set up) - while you are married you can pay the points to make it "official" - it will be represented by you being granted bluebooked lands to guarantee your income and status.
        One more thing....

        What's the protocol on Commoners and Nobles marrying? It would seem like such a thing would be -very- rare, and the Noble would take IC flak for marrying beneath him/her.

        Or is this something that is common practice and socially acceptable in this game-world?
        Sir Eberhard Delhomme von Doloreaux, Bart.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wee!

          All good and interesting questions!

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          I would imagine the church could be "persuaded" to annul marriages for those with sufficient wealth/influence as well, no?
          Yes and no. I'm sure it can happen, but it doesn't happen easily. The church is too powerful to need to do underhanded deals that will result in such an obvious and legal outcome.

          It *could* happen with the right influence or leverage. But it won't be as simple as a pay off or a request from a powerful noble. (Think of the historical kings and queens who couldn't get a divorce)

          If you want the (slightly worrying) historical way of getting around this... nobles would often arrange to marry relatives, who were distant enough to not give breeding problems, but close enough that if things don't work out they "realize" how closely related they are and get the marriage annulled.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          What happens if nobles "marry up?" Do their lands increase? Do they get a new title? Is this something that would be worked out in marriage negotiations?
          In the cannon/historical setting, yes. For game reasons, though, we've decided that marrying a noble places you at the same rank as a knight. That doesn't increase if they "marry up" - although it could be roleplayed that they are given more lands, etc.

          You don't get a new title from marrying. If you marry a viscount or a duke, your title is still Lady (or Lord if you marry a viscountessa or duchess) - historically you gain the rank, but not the title. In our game you don't gain the rank, you gain the rank of knight instead.

          Once you have the rank of knight, however, you could be promoted (from your own merits rather than from the marriage) and gain titles and more lands.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          Do marital promotions cost House tokens?
          No. It's a kind of "token-free way" for houses to promote more members, by marrying them off together. Arranged marriages FTW.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          You're saying Commoners can claim to be married at any point and time? Just checking in case it is ever relevant.
          Pretty much, yes. If they have a ceremony with the church then the church is acknowledging their marriage. And that's a big deal. But many commoners can't afford that.
          Plus, you can't really expect to hold commoners to the same standard that gentry and nobility stick to. Commoners are going to do... that sort of thing...
          anyway. It's only a good thing if they consider themselves to be married.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          If so, I imagine they can "divorce" at any time as well?
          Not if their marriage was recognized by the church. (Which it would have to be if they OOC want to share rooms etc. when that is available.)

          Rank and status should also be taken into account. If a commoner was never married in the church, and sees the opportunity to gain social status (through work, or maybe even by marriage?!) then they could get away with it.
          If a commoner starts rising through the ranks, they could drop their partner. Or they could keep their partner. If they do keep their partner, it may be hard to get out of the marriage later, though. If you got married (without a ceremony) as a commoner, then rise to the rank of gentry, and decide you want out... well... you're gentry. You're not expected to behave like that.

          The great houses may also have stricter restrictions on their employees and servants.

          Essentially, though, staff won't be enforcing marriages being "official" for commoners, unless they want it to be.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          What about female slaves that a noble man might own? Would it be looked down upon for a female slave to spend time alone with a male noble, or would slaves not even be considered, as they are well....just slaves.
          Slaves are considered property, so no, those rules don't apply. Despite them being considered property, they do not have to be despised. A slave could be a valued tutor for the children etc.

          Of course, that isn't hard and fast. If a male noble is an outspoken anti-slavery advocate, and preaches that they should be treated respectably... well then it would be inappropriate for them to spend time alone with a female slave, since they obviously view her as a person and are not being appropriately respectful.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          Also, Eberhard has already ICly hired a female as his personal assistant (and I can't live without her! :P). It is ok to just retcon that she is a scribe for the House, or what do we do ICly about that?
          Certainly. There is zero intention to stop players roleplaying together, or to put anyone in difficult situations because new rules were introduced.

          Let me know if there are any difficulties, but I would assume that you'd do just as you said, and retcon that she's employed as a scribe for the house rather than for Eberhard personally. And just happens to do most of her work for him.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          This was something I was curious about before. What is the deal with Inter-House marriages. We know that in the real world, political matches were made all the time between different Houses or Governments.
          They can happen, too. For political reasons, of course. Since a horse and a wolf can't have a child together... well... affairs would probably be expected if they are to have a child. And because of the lack of legitimate heirs, it's avoided more than in our real historical world.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          But we are different species. Could a Boar and a Fox marry, for example? (We all know that Tamara and Emilia are fighting over the rights to Eberhard.)
          They could marry. They just couldn't have children.

          Originally posted by Sarai View Post
          Eeep.... well, I've got the same sort of problem as Eberhard. Sarai is currently employed as Sir Matteo's bodyservant, which of course means that she -does- have duties that involve her being alone with him. Any suggestions on what can be done to deal with that? Should we change my position to just a regular servant, or just keep it the way it is and deal with whatever may come up because of it?
          Again, not attempting to stop anyone roleplaying with others. If you're happy, the best solution is probably to assume that Sarai is just a regular servant to the Rinaldi, and Matteo happens to have the most use for her.
          She couldn't be his body servant, and help him with certain tasks, such as dressing. That job should go to a man.

          What do you mean "duties that involve being alone"? It *is* alright for a female to be alone with a man (because otherwise, gah! Too hard to find roleplay) - but it would be somewhere appropriate. She shouldn't spend time alone in Matteo's bedroom, but if she was with him in the sitting room that would be just fine.

          You can, of course, choose to intentionally stay as his bodyservant, etc. if you think that it would be fun to roleplay that they are breaking the social expectations.

          Originally posted by Oink View Post
          One more thing....

          What's the protocol on Commoners and Nobles marrying? It would seem like such a thing would be -very- rare, and the Noble would take IC flak for marrying beneath him/her.

          Or is this something that is common practice and socially acceptable in this game-world?
          Depends on the rank of the noble, but it is something that happens. The Don could *never* marry a commoner. He has to take his pick from the (admittedly very few) lines of noble foxes.
          A knight? Sure! Until he was knighted, he was a commoner himself. Unless the house objects, a knight could probably marry anyone they wanted to. If they marry, say, a prostitute, then that may be a problem (but that may be a problem from anyone "of good family" regardless of their rank).

          Bear in mind that there are also ranks amongst the commoners. A Baron may be able to take their pick from most commoners, while a Count would probably be looking amongst the gentry. And a knight may be denied permission to marry a gentry, if their potential partner has been thumbing their nose at the status of the nobility. A lot depends on circumstance.

          Finding a partner of the correct species also counts for a lot. A Rinaldi noble could get away with marrying quite a bit lower if they chose a fox than if they chose a wolf, for example.

          For OOC reasons, though, unless there's a story reason we're unlikely to be too strict about nobles marrying commoners. It's more important that compatible players get the chance to RP the stories they want with each other. It wouldn't be too hard for a noble to arrange for the commoner they like to start working for their house, where they could put on a show of meeting and beginning to court. That way they don't appear to be looking amongst the commoners for partners, but "discovered" their partner amongst the loyal ranks of their house.
          Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

          Comment


          • #6
            On Noble Marriages...

            Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post

            They can happen, too. For political reasons, of course. Since a horse and a wolf can't have a child together... well... affairs would probably be expected if they are to have a child. And because of the lack of legitimate heirs, it's avoided more than in our real historical world.


            They could marry. They just couldn't have children.
            If an Avoi Lord married a Bisc Lady, but the lord wanted an heir, he would have to father a bastard with another Horse. Would society "politely" not ask questions about this newborn Horse, or would he have to officially recognize a bastard and weather the repercussions?

            What about "magical" means of fathering children cross-species? If I am not mistaken this has happened once IC already.

            Also, if a Lady marries a Lord from another House, she becomes a member of the man's House after that, no? Even though she would have allegiances to her old House, I would imagine that she would have to publically support the new one, even in things such as war between the two. Is this correct?

            Some of this becomes tricky, I think, because we do allow a bit more equality in these games (and we should) than was probably accurate for the time. If I am not mistaken, when a Lord died his Lady widow would assume control of his lands and estate if no heir was of age to do so. But the noble men of the realm would almost immediately come to court her, knowing that whoever wed her would probably be named Protector of those lands and for all intents and purposes, take control. And if they fathered an heir with the widow, and the previous lord left no heir with a claim, those lands would eventually pass to their family.

            I could see issues like this coming up. For example, let's say Eberhard wants to marry Viscountess Tamara. He wants her lands because they are more more vast and profitable than his own. He also wants the support of the Rinaldi, and any men-at-arms sworn to Tamara's estate, to use against the Avoirdupois should outright war develop over the Lyore.. If he was able to woo Tamara with his sexy bod, and/or if the Houses arranged the match, he -should- technically assume the lands and title of Tamara. At the very least, he would get a share of her influence. Tamara would become Lady Tamara von Doloreaux.

            Or...since Tamara is, in this game, a Viscountess in her own right (not by marriage) and of a higher station than Eberhard, would she technically assume -his- lands?

            Do you see where I'm going with this? I feel like I am being way too anal-retentive. >.>

            What do you mean "duties that involve being alone"? It *is* alright for a female to be alone with a man (because otherwise, gah! Too hard to find roleplay) - but it would be somewhere appropriate. She shouldn't spend time alone in Matteo's bedroom, but if she was with him in the sitting room that would be just fine.
            While I am all for strictly defined parameters like this, I do wonder if perhaps this one might need some OOC consideration. With the playerbase still rather small, and with -so many- different options available to characters (a good thing!), it can be hard to fill positions as is, more so if we have to discount an entire gender.

            I also wonder how guards would be affected by this in society's eyes. I could see instances where they might have to be alone with a noble of the opposite gender. (I suppose this would relate more to female guards than male guards.) Speaking of guards, what about female squires for male knights?

            Anyway, I'm cool with it being the way we look at things here (and can see some interesting RP coming from it), I just wanted to throw those OOC concerns out for discussion.


            Depends on the rank of the noble, but it is something that happens. The Don could *never* marry a commoner. He has to take his pick from the (admittedly very few) lines of noble foxes.
            A knight? Sure! Until he was knighted, he was a commoner himself. Unless the house objects, a knight could probably marry anyone they wanted to. If they marry, say, a prostitute, then that may be a problem (but that may be a problem from anyone "of good family" regardless of their rank).
            This is another thing I wanted clarification on. We have some characters that Eber has learned are former prostitutes, but they have since been promoted to Gentry. I am not sure how "society" is supposed to view these women now. One is betrothed to a Squire. Should Nobility turn a blind eye to this match, or should they speak out publically (or privately) against the match since a prostitute is marrying a man that is to one day become a Knight. I am unsure if they really should have been able to have been promoted to such a social rank in the first place given their well-known reputations. (Just to be clear, I am talking game-wise. I as a player, have nothing against any player this pertains to and don't care that their character got a promotion.) I am simply wanting to know jow I am supposed to RP in response.
            Last edited by Oink; 12-17-2007, 02:14 PM.
            Sir Eberhard Delhomme von Doloreaux, Bart.

            Comment


            • #7
              trickier questions... heh

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              On Noble Marriages...



              If an Avoi Lord married a Bisc Lady, but the lord wanted an heir, he would have to father a bastard with another Horse. Would society "politely" not ask questions about this newborn Horse, or would he have to officially recognize a bastard and weather the repercussions?
              It depends how he decides to handle it, and the situation he's in. In the case of the Avoi, they would probably turn a blind eye (Hey, a pure-blooded horse bastard is probably better than a wolf, anyway!) - their explanation could be "Praise S'allumer! A miracle!", or he could recognize a bastard. He could also foster a relative's child as his heir.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              What about "magical" means of fathering children cross-species? If I am not mistaken this has happened once IC already.
              Fertility magic is much more the domain of Lutara than S'allumer. It did indeed happen in-game, but should someone want to make trouble between those nobles and the church, it would be an ideal opportunity.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              Also, if a Lady marries a Lord from another House, she becomes a member of the man's House after that, no? Even though she would have allegiances to her old House, I would imagine that she would have to publically support the new one, even in things such as war between the two. Is this correct?
              Hmm. Tricky. I think this would partially depend on the setup between them. A handmaiden from one house marrying a lord from another would definately have to change allegiances (at least publicly.)
              A high ranking female marrying a lower ranking lord could probably demand that he joins her house. Not realistic, but a little more flexible for the players.
              It would also depend on *which* houses. A noble from one of the Great Houses marrying a noble from a Minor House would probably expect to stay in the Great House.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              Some of this becomes tricky, I think, because we do allow a bit more equality in these games (and we should) than was probably accurate for the time.
              Precisely.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              If I am not mistaken, when a Lord died his Lady widow would assume control of his lands and estate if no heir was of age to do so. But the noble men of the realm would almost immediately come to court her, knowing that whoever wed her would probably be named Protector of those lands and for all intents and purposes, take control. And if they fathered an heir with the widow, and the previous lord left no heir with a claim, those lands would eventually pass to their family.
              Yes, but as the running of the lands is bluebooked, and the married person gets knights rank (and the lands, if they pay the STP) that's already (sort of) handled in the background. The roleplay between the characters could talk about the new husband taking control, or the widow managing her late husband's lands.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              I could see issues like this coming up. For example, let's say Eberhard wants to marry Viscountess Tamara. He wants her lands because they are more more vast and profitable than his own. He also wants the support of the Rinaldi, and any men-at-arms sworn to Tamara's estate, to use against the Avoirdupois should outright war develop over the Lyore.. If he was able to woo Tamara with his sexy bod, and/or if the Houses arranged the match, he -should- technically assume the lands and title of Tamara. At the very least, he would get a share of her influence. Tamara would become Lady Tamara von Doloreaux.
              Yes. (Although, with the "more freedom than was historical", if they stayed in the Rinaldi they would keep the Rinaldi name to avoid too much confusion.)

              Eberhard may end up in control of Tamara's lands, but those would still be Rinaldi lands, and therefore Eberhard would owe his alliegance (at least, his hypothetical alliegance as "ruler of those lands") to the Rinaldi Don. He'd pay taxes from those lands to the Don, raise a militia that the Don can use etc. - while his other lands may be doing the same for the Doloreaux Duke.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              Or...since Tamara is, in this game, a Viscountess in her own right (not by marriage) and of a higher station than Eberhard, would she technically assume -his- lands?
              I think, for OOC reasons, this would depend on what the two players wanted. You could RP that Eberhard is strict and insists she joins the Doloreaux, and that he manages her lands. Or you could RP that he's willing to join the Rinaldi for her. Either way, both houses would probably have a say in it, and it'd likely become a bit of a political tug-of-war.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              Do you see where I'm going with this? I feel like I am being way too anal-retentive. >.>
              Maybe, but it has the potential for a lot of fun plots. The more that's out there, the more possibilities to set up plots.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              While I am all for strictly defined parameters like this, I do wonder if perhaps this one might need some OOC consideration. With the playerbase still rather small, and with -so many- different options available to characters (a good thing!), it can be hard to fill positions as is, more so if we have to discount an entire gender.
              Effectively you don't have to ignore a gender for the different roles. You can't fill *specific* roles, but you could give a more general role. And you can't have a *personal* servant, but that doesn't stop the players from RPing together just as much as if they were personal servants.

              Instead of "This girl is my bodyservant" you can say "This girl is one of the maids that I ask to run errands" and do the same sort of RP. Instead of walking into the private bedroom together you look both ways down the corridor before slipping in.
              And it's perfectly acceptable to be alone with them, if it's somewhere public, like a lounge. Just not somewhere like the bedroom.
              (also note: I'm saying that *society* won't find it acceptable. OOC I've always encouraged players to bend societies rules. They are IC rules, not OOC rules.)

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              I also wonder how guards would be affected by this in society's eyes. I could see instances where they might have to be alone with a noble of the opposite gender. (I suppose this would relate more to female guards than male guards.)
              Again, depends what you mean by "alone" - if you have a female guard, she shouldn't be guarding you inside your bedchambers. She could be standing outside the door on guard, though.
              Again, depends on circumstances, and how appropriate the relationship is. If there is an attack, and she bursts into the room to protect her lord, nobody is likely to take issue. If the two are... very friendly... and she sleeps in his room "in case of assassins" - that may raise eyebrows. It's a political game, it all depends on how things are presented, and what others wish to make of it.

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              Speaking of guards, what about female squires for male knights?
              I don't think that would be appropriate. A female Dame could groom a handmaiden for promotion instead.
              (It will be possible to rise in ranks even if you aren't someone's squire)

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              Anyway, I'm cool with it being the way we look at things here (and can see some interesting RP coming from it), I just wanted to throw those OOC concerns out for discussion.
              Yay. As well as the questions, feel free to mention concerns, or things you worry might not work out. (We've had you mention that cutting out a gender reduces the number of people who can be employed)

              Originally posted by Oink View Post
              This is another thing I wanted clarification on. We have some characters that Eber has learned are former prostitutes, but they have since been promoted to Gentry. I am not sure how "society" is supposed to view these women now. One is betrothed to a Squire. Should Nobility turn a blind eye to this match, or should they speak out publically (or privately) against the match since a prostitute is marrying a man that is to one day become a Knight. I am unsure if they really should have been able to have been promoted to such a social rank in the first place given their well-known reputations. (Just to be clear, I am talking game-wise. I as a player, have nothing against any player this pertains to and don't care that their character got a promotion.) I am simply wanting to know jow I am supposed to RP in response.
              Ah. Look into the... rather inappropriate couple, who had a cross-species baby, and you may see this theme as well.

              It's pretty much up to you how Eber views them. It is more than acceptable to look down on "ladies of ill repute" who may have ideas above their station. Bear in mind, however, that if they do end up in a good marriage, they could have a fair bit of political power to hit back with.

              All else being even, the noble NPCs should be likely to err on the side of looking down at people who came from "low" professions.
              Others could argue that, if they gain rank, they've climbed back from where they were. Maybe a gentry from a low position would be looked down as less than another gentry, but perhaps seen a squire, despite their history.
              Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

              Comment


              • #8
                Can we make this a sticky?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just to add my two pence... (Brit currency, bronze and usually stuck in back pockets, eating on a piece of tissue >.>)

                  You could always do what one of our most famous kings did here in Britain. King Henry VIII had eight wives and most of them, as he couldn't divorce them because of the church, he had their heads chopped off. I wonder if this could be utilised in the game?

                  P.S. Joking people... but please send all angry riots to: Medieval Room, The Boarding House, Triskellian, Calabria

                  P.S.S This is meant as a pure, poke-fun-at-people joke. I'm being serious. I wouldn't be so cold-hearted.
                  Your collarbone is severely bruised
                  You tell Misery surely "I'm fine, honest"

                  Sergeant Dio tells you "I'm going to beat you until dodging becomes second nature to you."

                  OOC - Milli says to you "You're creepy.... but you've brightened up my Saturday!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Belgarion View Post
                    Just to add my two pence... (Brit currency, bronze and usually stuck in back pockets, eating on a piece of tissue >.>)

                    You could always do what one of our most famous kings did here in Britain. King Henry VIII had eight wives and most of them, as he couldn't divorce them because of the church, he had their heads chopped off. I wonder if this could be utilised in the game?

                    P.S. Joking people... but please send all angry riots to: Medieval Room, The Boarding House, Triskellian, Calabria

                    P.S.S This is meant as a pure, poke-fun-at-people joke. I'm being serious. I wouldn't be so cold-hearted.
                    But in seriousness, it makes for a cool plot. To have your partner bumped off - involves assassins, intrigue, skulduggery...
                    They would need to be consenting and want to retire/permadeath their character, of course. Otherwise you'd bump them off, and they'd be resurrected a week later.
                    Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                      But in seriousness, it makes for a cool plot. To have your partner bumped off - involves assassins, intrigue, skulduggery...
                      They would need to be consenting and want to retire/permadeath their character, of course. Otherwise you'd bump them off, and they'd be resurrected a week later.
                      "I said til death do us part, bitch!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        lets get creative people!
                        Originally posted by Zetsubou-Sensei


                        Come visit: http://goldengate.niceboard.net/
                        We discuss Cooking, Music, Animated Television and Video Games.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Belgarion View Post
                          You could always do what one of our most famous kings did here in Britain. King Henry VIII had eight wives and most of them, as he couldn't divorce them because of the church, he had their heads chopped off. I wonder if this could be utilised in the game?
                          I am really cool with the whole idea of chopping peoples heads off. Especially to escape from marriage but....

                          Henry VIII only had 6 wives (No, the 8 is not the wife count) and he only lopped off 2 of their heads. Of course he did pretty much 'convict' them of everything from sleeping with their brother to just general sluttyness.

                          Regardless... It was effective

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pyjamas View Post
                            "I said til death do us part, bitch!"
                            Yay for necromancy and resurrection.... Btw, how does death affect marriage?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nobles do not own land. Nobles are granted land to use, by the king or noble above them, in return for military service and other things. If you marry into another kingdom's nobility, one side either abandons their properties, or you become duke/baron/whatever of each separately. The first would be considered betrayel, and the second would often cause problems, which leads to it being very rare for a head of a noble family to marry another head of a royal family. That's just historically, however.
                              Last edited by Vorico; 02-11-2008, 03:20 PM. Reason: Reworded

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X

                              Debug Information