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  • Player-hosted events

    Hi All!

    So, we're going to try something new!
    Instead of using @favor and @disfavor to see who should get promoted, we're going to instead try and give promotions based on social activity in the game. How is that going to work? Through player-hosted events!

    We've added a new command: @event

    We've also added six pre-created events, ranging from poetry readings to duels. To see the list type:
    @event

    When you're playing your PC, you can type:
    @event announce EVENTNAME
    (e.g. @event announce poetry reading)
    ... and that will send a broadcast to all online PCs letting them know that the your PC will be hosting a poetry reading at the library sitting area.

    Once players have gathered for the poetry reading, you can type:
    @event start poetry reading
    ... which tells the system that they have begun the event.
    Everyone present will see a message about the event starting, and everyone present - including the PC hosting the event - will get some "points" for attending the event.

    Although you can attend as many events as you like, you only get points for one "type" of event once a week. That means you get 1 point for attending a poetry reading, no matter how many poetry readings you attend that week.

    However, if you attend many different types of events, you get points for each type.
    So attending a poetry reading AND a duel will give you 2 points that week. Attending a cafe social as well will give you 3 points, and so on.

    How many points do you need for a promotion? I don't know.
    How many PCs will get promoted? And when? I don't know.

    This system is intended to encourage players to be active both hosting and attending events. At the moment, we don't know how successful it will be, and so we don't know how many points it's going to end up giving out.

    We also don't know what the social "rules" around this command or hosting/attending events will be (we're waiting to see what the playerbase decides. Feel free to start discussion on this thread.)

    At the moment there are a number of events available. Feel free to start using the command! Feel free to start hosting events! You don't need any staff help or permission, just look through the list, decide what event you'd be interested in running, and @event announce YOUREVENT

    If there is a type of event that you'd like to run, and it's not on the list, then please @assist. Staff will discuss the event with you, and if it's appropriate we'll add it to the list.

    Of course, you can still run events without this command. It's just using this command will track who attends the events, so we can hopefully rewards the players (and PCs) that are socially active and contributing to the RP
    Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

  • #2
    The silence is deafening... I'm going to assume no news is good news?

    You might have noticed new events being added to the list.

    We've just added our first premium-only event. Does that mean only premium players can attend? Nope! But it does mean only premium players can trigger the start of the event.

    Premium players should now see "bonfire party" on their list. Announcing the event will create a bonfire in the room at the location where the PC is standing. The bonfire will last for 3 hours.

    As usual, if one person announces the event, that "locks" the event so other players can't also host it until a few hours have passed.
    Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

    Comment


    • #3
      The first round of point gathering and promotions have been handed out, as many may have noticed by now. This is the first time using the @event system, and due to the time passed since the last round of promotions, more than would normally have been promoted have received a promotion.

      Keep in mind, the reason for the @event system is to encourage people to gather and RP. Those who encourage and participate in RP are the ones rewarded.

      We're still tweaking the system and as weaknesses show themselves, we'll adapt and adjust it so we can avoid abuse of it.

      Ideas and suggestions are more than welcome. Do feel free to discuss and bring in your thoughts and concerns.
      Eos
      - Goddess of Dawn and opener of the gates of heaven
      - her tears create the morning dew - she's the mother of all the stars
      Dawn
      - the new beginning and banishment of darkness and evil

      Comment


      • #4
        Disfavoring the favor

        The new @event system gets an A for effort. There are a lot of people who dislike this new social climbing system so I will share what I've heard.
        Most of the complaints and solutions come from other people.

        Complaints:

        ~This system is a one way track. There is no way to get demoted so eventually we will have more upper class then lower class.

        ~Some @events seem to happen very often. For example, a character is still a fairly new character and has hosts a specific event almost every day it seems like. And suddenly rank!

        ~Simply going is enough. For example a character may only go to events when dragged, stands at the side awkward and silent, and then sneaks away at the earliest opportunity. And that person is up for a promotion because of good behaviour? I suppose it's somewhat better than binning annoying goats headfirst.

        ~Criminals. Criminals are getting promoted because they can host drinking parties. Yes like pirates don't drink. Doesn't matter that the pirate is infamous for being a pirate and would be avoided he goes to drinking parties.

        ~No peer input. You can't reward or punish people socially via the system. Some people should have more sway; say a noble would have more say then a commoner about what is acceptable behavoir.

        Solutions:

        ~(for one way track) The best solution is to allow for demotions. Demotions should be earned just like promotions. The best mix would be demotion earned from both peer input and self actions. More on this with other points.

        ~(for happen very often) There is part of a solution already put in place...Az quotes- Although you can attend as many events as you like, you only get points for one "type" of event once a week. That means you get 1 point for attending a poetry reading, no matter how many poetry readings you attend that week. But there is no cost to hold an event. We could maybe have free events that are worth just 1 point and then more elaborate events like balls and tournaments that you can spend some kind of currency (token or denarri or charm) and get more points for said event.

        ~(for simply going) Two suggestions for this one. First, a forced action. Maybe to get points for attending said function you have to fill out a survery..hehe. Second, allow the host a pool of points that they can hand out. This way if people just stand around or behave poorly the host can go nope, none for you. I already see a flaw with this and it is people will give their friends more and none to others. Maybe have it so you can only receive the max amount of points for that event and any unused points just go away.

        ~(for criminals) Have the crime system (that actually uses influence points, on of the biggest perks to be promoted) tied in with the new system. If you are convicted, innocent or not, you socially lose points.

        ~(no peer input) For this I suggest one or both of these two things. Allow influence (from crime system) to be used in the social climbing system. It could be like currency and spent to reward or punish people socially. Allow houses and even guilds to purchase favor tokens with a large amount of something. Maybe working tokens? Could even have the houses generate them like the used to. These tokens could be used to give you points not give instant promotion and would only work if you were loyal to that group.


        The Amazing Meganame Generator

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        • #5
          I agree that the system is really flawed. I know speaking personally that my character has done a lot of hard work and RPs a lot, but his personality means he isn't much one for hosting socials, though he often attends them. I would like to think that I put in just as much effort to advance, but in different ways other than hosting events. I like the idea of being able to use influence to help others advance, it would give influence points a multi purpose and would force people who have influence to be more choosey about what they use them on. Oh sure you could dump a bunch into helping someone get a promotion, but what if later on you need those points to help convict someone of a crime? I've also seen very new characters get promos, this is going to sound super selfish and greedy, but my main character, despite all his hard work, didn't get a promo, while a lazy alt I barely play, did. I really think the system should be frozen before further promotions occure, as the system needs to be overhauled and some big wrinkles ironed out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by be quiet you View Post
            ~This system is a one way track. There is no way to get demoted so eventually we will have more upper class then lower class.
            Demotion would be fun to RP! Why this isn't available beats me, as it makes the system entirely imbalanced.

            ~Criminals. Criminals are getting promoted because they can host drinking parties. Yes like pirates don't drink. Doesn't matter that the pirate is infamous for being a pirate and would be avoided he goes to drinking parties.
            Again, with the lack of demotion even a criminal or lazy type character can gain favour for crashing an upper class event, even when their actions are less than favourable. This doesn't make sense.

            ~No peer input. You can't reward or punish people socially via the system. Some people should have more sway; say a noble would have more say then a commoner about what is acceptable behavoir.
            I agree with this, at the moment the @Event system is taking the power from the noble's hands by allowing ill favoured characters to gain favour. I know, the nobles can decide who can attend their gatherings, but someone can still gain equal rank for hosting a boozing, commoner party as it would be to host an intricate ball. Which takes away from the sense that nobles are worth more than commoners.

            ~(for criminals) Have the crime system (that actually uses influence points, on of the biggest perks to be promoted) tied in with the new system. If you are convicted, innocent or not, you socially lose points.
            I definitely agree with this idea. A criminal record should automatically detract from a person's social standing regardless of the reason. I think points should be awarded to the Constables for filing the crime too (ooc: it could be argued that a Constable has an ooc obligation to file the crime anyway, so this would be an ooc way of gaining favour, which isn't appropriate). Perhaps points could be given according to evidence filed by a constable instead.

            This idea could be applied to guilds and houses too when they do an action that favourably suits them. Though I think this was discussed already. I'm not sure why only a portion of the system was put in place, because it has far too many flaws as it stands.

            ~(no peer input) For this I suggest one or both of these two things. Allow influence (from crime system) to be used in the social climbing system. It could be like currency and spent to reward or punish people socially. Allow houses and even guilds to purchase favor tokens with a large amount of something. Maybe working tokens? Could even have the houses generate them like the used to. These tokens could be used to give you points not give instant promotion and would only work if you were loyal to that group.
            I love this idea, it would give those with land leverage to grant boons or subtract depending on which rank they are. Which would give the power back to the nobility, though I still think the types of social events need to be balanced in terms of point giving (fancy ball as opposed to a commoner party).

            Originally posted by KainePanther View Post
            I agree that the system is really flawed. I know speaking personally that my character has done a lot of hard work and RPs a lot, but his personality means he isn't much one for hosting socials, though he often attends them. I would like to think that I put in just as much effort to advance, but in different ways other than hosting events. I like the idea of being able to use influence to help others advance, it would give influence points a multi purpose and would force people who have influence to be more choosey about what they use them on. Oh sure you could dump a bunch into helping someone get a promotion, but what if later on you need those points to help convict someone of a crime? I've also seen very new characters get promos, this is going to sound super selfish and greedy, but my main character, despite all his hard work, didn't get a promo, while a lazy alt I barely play, did. I really think the system should be frozen before further promotions occure, as the system needs to be overhauled and some big wrinkles ironed out.
            I agree with this sentiment. Zaria, the Sheriff, has gained only one level in rank in all the years I have played her. It was earned BEFORE she hosted a week long festival and dealt largely with the jadelanders (which has been going on for more than a year), yet she has seen diddly squat in terms of social favour because of 'criminal hissy fits'. Which links into the topic that the crime system is flawed in terms that it affects a Constable's social standing for doing their job. Strangely, though, they can gain favour for going to parties, which isn't very Constable-like.

            I'm seeing a whole bunch of criminal-type characters gaining rank with this system for the sole purpose of 'hanging out' at @events as opposed to actually doing a favourable action with no means of balancing out their favour with crimes they have committed. Which is thoroughly ridiculous.

            Criminal A: Oh, haha, I killed someone last week, but I'm getting sponsored because I went and boozed at so-and-so's party. Got sloshed and then killed -another- person! I guess nobles like me!

            Assuming Criminal A would be dumb enough to brag about that, which wouldn't at all surprise me. >_>

            Anyway, that's my few cents. Hate the system.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi guys,

              Thanks so much for posting this feedback - we're doing our best to make a fun game, and telling us what you feel works or doesn't work helps that!

              I want to throw out some comments about my goals with this, and then I'll nitpick the comments. (Hopefully in a way that will create more discussion, and not in a "I'm right you're wrong" way)

              I'm going to stay a little vague about how exactly we're calculating things behind the scenes. Partly because this will change as we tweak things (based on your feedback, and our analysis) and partly because we don't really want players to 'game the system'

              - We've tried three other favor/promotion systems in the past. All of them have had fans and detractors. Pros and cons. In all cases, they partially worked, but were replaced because I wanted to keep searching for something better. This system might be better, it might need to be improved, or it might need to be replaced - all options are open.

              - I'm seeing a lot of comments about peer input, or influence from nobles. Which is interesting - in previous systems I pushed strongly for this input and influence, and saw a lot of negative comments about how it allows for OOC bias and cliques, how it "forced" players to RP with or suck up to certain PCs, and how it disadvantaged players that weren't online at the right time of day. This current system is an experiment in minimizing those issues - a PC can "get ahead" without RPing with any given specific PC, and while staying amongst their own social class. They do still need sponsorship, so the power of promotion does ultimately still rest with the ranked PCs.

              - A huge push with this system is to encourage players to be proactive about creating RP. With the @favor and @disfavor system, we saw a strong fear reaction where PCs would avoid social interaction because of the perception that "doing the wrong thing" would lead to disfavor, so better to avoid the RP altogether. (Incidentally, I can tell you that on average vastly more favor than disfavor was given out.) - what we wanted to do here was move a bit more away from a focus on "proper behavior" that might scare players away from interaction, and move more towards rewarding IC and OOC actions that create group RP situations. There are constant complaints that "there is nothing to do" or "nothing is happening" - and while staff will do their best, we can't run enough events to keep everyone happy. However, if we can get players proactively running events, and proactively inviting and including others into the RP, then you guys *can* run enough events to keep everyone happy. Even if it's just minor, I'd *love* to see a situation where there's something happening every evening that a random PC can log into the game and join in with. - I know we're not there yet, but I'm hopeful that (with your help!) we can create more events, we can find the types of events that are easy for players to run and fun to attend, and we can reward the players that OOCly make the game more fun for everyone.

              - And when I say "OOCly make the game more fun" I don't JUST mean the ones hosting events. Sure, hosting events does "make something happen" - but attending an event and contributing to the RP in a fun way also helps. Being "an interesting criminal" stirring up (non-frustrating non-dead-end) RP for others also helps. Being an administrative sort of character that helps organize and track things like tournament results or laws or whatnot also helps. I'm not saying this system magically rewards all the right people, just throwing out some examples of the sorts of behavior that (I think) help make the game fun for everyone else. Happy to have a discussion about other player's opinions about what sort of RP or OOC actions help the game be fun.

              And to generally sum up some key points in the feedback... if people who disagree with these feedback points could make a quick post, that'll give us more of a sense if everyone feels this way, or if players are divided.

              - Players want demotions to be possible, and they want the demotions to be (mostly?) controlled by the higher ranked PCs

              - "eventually we will have more upper class than lower class" - well, new PCs are being created, and older ones leave, which will "restock" the lower classes. But overall, you guys want ranks to be fairly static (i.e. there is enough difficulty and it's easy enough to be demoted that most PCs end up hovering around some level of commoner ranks?) - So the average PC wouldn't be able to consistently be promoted over time, even with effort?

              - Don't want players to be rewarded if they don't participate in an event

              - Don't want criminals to be promoted (and, in fact, want them to be demoted) (As a follow-up to this, in fiction it's very common to have "ranked" criminals. The evil lord, The ambitious gentry, The pirate Baron, etc. - is that something players do not want in the game?)

              - More peer input - especially from higher ranked PCs

              - Clarification about whether promotions are entirely an IC thing, or whether it's "ok" to have a system that (partially) rewards OOC good actions.

              Right! So on to your specific comments now
              Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

              Comment


              • #8
                - Players want demotions to be possible, and they want the demotions to be (mostly?) controlled by the higher ranked PCs
                I'd definitely like to see demotions possible. Some people might even prefer their characters be demoted according to the RP they give at an event, because negative favour is RP too.

                - "eventually we will have more upper class than lower class" - well, new PCs are being created, and older ones leave, which will "restock" the lower classes. But overall, you guys want ranks to be fairly static (i.e. there is enough difficulty and it's easy enough to be demoted that most PCs end up hovering around some level of commoner ranks?) - So the average PC wouldn't be able to consistently be promoted over time, even with effort?
                I don't personally agree with "eventually we will have more upper class than lower class", I'd just like to see a way for favour to go both ways.

                - Don't want players to be rewarded if they don't participate in an event
                I think it depends on how they contribute to the event. Sure, they can be rewarded for turning up, but if they do something disfavourable during then there should be a way to counteract that.

                - Don't want criminals to be promoted (and, in fact, want them to be demoted) (As a follow-up to this, in fiction it's very common to have "ranked" criminals. The evil lord, The ambitious gentry, The pirate Baron, etc. - is that something players do not want in the game?)
                On the contrary, I'd LOVE to see a ranked criminal, but this system promotes the stupid criminals rather than have a criminal manipulate the social structure using their brain. If someone cussed out a noble in the middle of an event then it's highly unlikely they'd have a favourable outcome...

                - More peer input - especially from higher ranked PCs
                There's always the sense that the commoners simply don't respect the nobility because they can't really do much to punish someone for cussing them out. Sure, there's disrespecting higher rank in the crime system and telling people to treat the person in such a way, but It's rarely seen to have much of an impact.

                - Clarification about whether promotions are entirely an IC thing, or whether it's "ok" to have a system that (partially) rewards OOC good actions.
                I'm not entirely sure there should be OOC reward since it could potentially encourage OOC reasons for doing IC things that would be uncharacteristic of a character. Sure, it'd be fine if everyone played cooperatively, but who am I kidding? There's always going to be someone who abuses it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - Players want demotions to be possible, and they want the demotions to be (mostly?) controlled by the higher ranked PCs
                  Yes they seem to want demotions and yes they want the more rank you have to matter. I believe the higher ranked people should have a hand in the flow of social climbing but not overwhelmingly so. A big thing lacking in game is loyalty or the since of fidelity. Mostly, they want actions to have fitting consequences.

                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - "eventually we will have more upper class than lower class" - well, new PCs are being created, and older ones leave, which will "restock" the lower classes. But overall, you guys want ranks to be fairly static (i.e. there is enough difficulty and it's easy enough to be demoted that most PCs end up hovering around some level of commoner ranks?)
                  I think they want promotions to make since. There will always be an average status and that will likely be commoner.

                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - So the average PC wouldn't be able to consistently be promoted over time, even with effort?
                  No, this is very incorrect. No one wants to put in effort only to not get a pay off. If a pc not only does the status norm but occasionally goes above and beyond they should be recognized for it.

                  Originally posted by CaptainUnaMoon View Post
                  (ooc: it could be argued that a Constable has an ooc obligation to file the crime anyway, so this would be an ooc way of gaining favour, which isn't appropriate). Perhaps points could be given according to evidence filed by a constable instead.
                  While I agree they have an ooc obligation that the player and or character may not agree with all the time I'm not sure this would work. Maybe they could get some points for closing out a case where the criminal was found guilty. I say this because many cases have constables filing many pieces of evidence and the evidence is part of the job. Closing a case where a warrant was served is less easy to obtain and makes sence to gain favor from.

                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - Don't want players to be rewarded if they don't participate in an event
                  Just going shouldn't be enough to get the full points for going if any at all. How many wall flowers do you know become prom queen without some major intervention? I think the host of an event should dictate who gets points.

                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - Don't want criminals to be promoted (and, in fact, want them to be demoted) (As a follow-up to this, in fiction it's very common to have "ranked" criminals. The evil lord, The ambitious gentry, The pirate Baron, etc. - is that something players do not want in the game?)
                  I agree with Zaria on this one, ranked bad guys are usually fun and add rp. But a bad guy ranked or not who gets caught should lose favor.

                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - More peer input - especially from higher ranked PCs
                  Yup

                  Originally posted by KainePanther View Post
                  I like the idea of being able to use influence to help others advance, it would give influence points a multi purpose and would force people who have influence to be more choosey about what they use them on. Oh sure you could dump a bunch into helping someone get a promotion, but what if later on you need those points to help convict someone of a crime?
                  And this would be an awesome way to have peer input.

                  Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                  - Clarification about whether promotions are entirely an IC thing, or whether it's "ok" to have a system that (partially) rewards OOC good actions.
                  It should likely be by in large an ic thing. However, ooc effort is often goes unrecongized thus leaving the player feeling used so a little reward wouldn't hurt.


                  The Amazing Meganame Generator

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My own character has had similar problems, failing to gain any rank whatsoever, despite being entrusted to positions of importance, due to systems that limit and stifle RP, and cause ridiculous actions that have OOC motivation only to try to get around these limitations. This is wrong. That so many systems in the past have failed speaks strongly for fact that automated systems in this matter do not work, so I argue for some reduced and non-intrusive alternative, not more coded stipulations. Some more issues/suggestions to add to the communal pile:

                    -Firstly, the idea that only holding and attending events, ANY events, can influence social status is stupid. Additionally, the system favours those that spam drinking parties, sparring meets, etc. over those that plan and host actual social gatherings. My first suggestion is that the @event system be removed from the ranking system; it is unwieldy, unrealistic, and far too prone to abuses.

                    -Again, why does social influence have no influence on social ranking?

                    -Nobles currently only have the power to get bowed to, or disrespected, mostly. As a result, Nobles seem to be no fun to play, as they get disrespected without any real consequence for acting like nobles, or else they are played like commoners. The game world is NOT a democracy, and the opinions of commoners should realistically count for little, while the influence of Nobility should count for more and really should be able to be spent on social ranking, and not just thrown at @crime. Additionally, the limits of being 'too high-ranking' to support someone is ludicrous and should be eliminated. Under the systems past and present, my character could not even be supported by the knight he was squire to. Maybe these will give a reason for nobles to be fun, and to act like nobles.

                    -Why are we not seeing more of an issue with the people being promoted dealing with the House their new land comes from? I have always been bothered by this because, though it is true you have to find a sponsor, that's it. Done once and forgotten. And you have characters that will just give lands away with little or no IC reason. There is no real RP because the ranking system is an entirely OOC thing, again resulting primarily in RP with OOC motivations, which prompts OOC abuses often enough. Characters should be rewarded according to RP (both favourable and otherwise), and I have rarely seen that happen, and characters should be able to reward (or otherwise) other characters similarly.

                    -Self-promotion, in any form, should not ever be. This system causes just that, because anyone can announce some event anytime to the entire game world, and people will come running because they get rank! There are so many things wrong with this, as have been stated. Also, it disrupts actual RP currently going on, indeed, it serves to socially punish those that remain in a scene to continue this RP instead of running to the event, again for OOC reasons. This whole system is just wrong.

                    So, I vote for as little system as possible, and let the players RP the rest, according to IC motivations. Yes, there will be abuses and detractors, but at least these will mirror the ones seen in the social systems of the time. By not forcing players to work within ridiculously and unrealistically confining systems, social and political RP would be more dynamic and rewarding.

                    Acting Ambassador and Captain of the Avoirdupois, and Squire to Mareshal Bayard d'Avoirdupois

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi guys,

                      Sorry for not addressing the feedback - real life called me away.

                      I'll go through it, but a quick comment - clearly you guys don't like this system and want it removed, but also the people who don't like a system are going to be the ones speaking out. Here, we've seen some positive comments about previous systems, while at the time there were calls for those to be removed, too.

                      So let's not discuss removing the system (although that is an option available to the game) - and instead focus on identifying the problems, and possible improvements.

                      After we've looked at those, tried to fix the issues, and identified improvements - then we might still decide that the "fixed" system is still bad enough that we'll remove it.

                      That's not to say you guys aren't providing useful and positive suggestions - you are. I'd just like to keep us on track to designing the best outcome.
                      Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OMG I just lost everything I typed out over the past few hours.

                        I've run out of time today and can't retype it all. I'll have to respond tomorrow.

                        Sorry!
                        Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          FYI - as far as I'm concerned the current system is on hold, while we look at our options to include the feedback we've received so far.

                          We'll discuss it with staff, and also continue the conversations here on the forum.
                          Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello, I'd thought I weigh in with my two pennies since I'd like to think I cover a few of the different sorts of characters that might get affected.

                            I definitely do like this new idea of promotions and the like since I felt the old way was stagnating and nothing was happening. This is a definite improvement and I like it. Granted there's probably ways to improve it, but that's always the way.

                            I do think that people, and characters, should be rewarded for holding events, simply because they're activities that encourage roleplay - it has definitely inspired me to start holding more sermons with Xim - and if he holds enough and gets a promotion that sort of makes sense, his superiors in the Church would see that there's this bloke doing lots of service for the community and then they reward him with a promotion in the hopes he carries on doing these good things. In this instance I think it will work great. Also - again with Xim, and I know I might harp on about it, but he did get demoted for being bad. It was super fun and player run and a lot of things spun off from it, so I think there is still room for that sort of thing.

                            I do also worry that there aren't really ways for the non-social type characters to get promoted, the people like Kaine and the constables that slog away doing stuff that would get noticed by superiors and they would get promoted. Which is where I think the issue lies, there aren't many superiors about.

                            The trouble is, as Hanneman said, if the superiors have the power to promote themselves, there are issues, but then who will promote the promoters? Is it entirely impossible for there to be some sort of VP type scenario that people can send petitions to? Like Person A of the Bisclavret thinks that person B is doing a terrible good job and should get a promotiona, so they get persons C,D,E and F to sign a petition and send it off to VP Bisclavret, and if all goes well person B gets granted a promotion tied to Biscuit lands. There would be six different VP's capable of dishing out these promotions, namely the four houses, the church and the constables. It's just an idea. Also, it would work the same for demotion.

                            I do like that this is a topic in regular discussion.
                            Ximen: "Burn the heretic, purge the unclean, kill the abomination."
                            Sang: "What happensssss happenssssss."
                            Myrddin: "You, ah, you shouldn't really be, ah, doing that."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Magister View Post
                              I do also worry that there aren't really ways for the non-social type characters to get promoted, the people like Kaine and the constables that slog away doing stuff that would get noticed by superiors and they would get promoted. Which is where I think the issue lies, there aren't many superiors about.
                              If we have some way of tracking what is done, then yeah.


                              Originally posted by Magister View Post
                              The trouble is, as Hanneman said, if the superiors have the power to promote themselves, there are issues, but then who will promote the promoters? Is it entirely impossible for there to be some sort of VP type scenario that people can send petitions to?
                              Not impossible at all.

                              Generally I'm hesitant of too much reliance on staff-run NPCs. It's hard to handle things in a way that is clearly "fair"

                              Let me give an example:
                              - PC A writes a glowing recommendation to NPC about PC B. Staff know that, objectively, PC B doesn't deserve that recommendation, and the players are dating. However, that is the only IC information the NPC has been provided.

                              How should staff play it? Go based on the IC information, like a normal PC would? Well...sure. That makes sense. But it's not good for the "game" even if it's good for the "story." Or go based on the OOC information (the NPC has NPC spies etc. that can provide the appropriate recommendation) - great, that's rewarding the right player, but then we're reducing the player's influence.

                              Most cases aren't that clear cut. What if the PC *does* deserve it, but the players are dating? What if the PC deserves it, but so do other PCs? What if there's a PC that clearly deserves it, but the players aren't in the same timezone?

                              It's a messy situation. So yeah, we can do something like that, but as much as possible I'd want to look for "objective" measures that staff can use. Things like petitions let us count the number of signatures, @event lets us count how many points earned, quests let us track how far they've gone, and so on. Not saying those easily measured things are necessarily the best way to award a promotion, but they can help staff make an easy decision.

                              So in the example above, if the noble has a petition with ten influential signatures, then staff can make an easier choice. Despite the potential OOC bias, there's more than just that one player pushing for the promotion. Or in the case of multiple deserving PCs, it's easy to say "Well, PC X got the most signatures" etc.

                              ... but of course the more we try to use those measures, the more we move back towards a coded promotion system, and the less benefit we have from the staff-run NPCs making the decisions.

                              So, yeah, a rock and a hard place.

                              I do like the staff-run NPCs involved if they're generating RP. For example, if they say "Sure, we'll give a promotion, but first they need to prove themselves worthy by doing X"

                              We'd also need to define who would be allowed to send the petitions, and how much weight the NPC gives to their rank, job etc.

                              Despite these difficulties, there are also the obvious advantages of having staff NPCs make these decisions, too.

                              How do you guys feel, in general? Would you prefer writing to NPCs with petitions for promotion?
                              Or would you prefer something that involves staff decisions less, like being able to spend influence to get another PC promoted or demoted?
                              Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

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