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  • Promotions and Nobility

    This thread is to explain the process of promotion in Ironclaw.

    All normal starting characters are assumed to begin the game as serfs or peasants, depending what they wish. Some may voluntarily choose to begin as slaves.

    Every two months the Great Houses (Rinaldi, Bisclavret, Doloreaux and Avoirdupois) will be given two "promotions" that they may distribute. For administrative reasons these promotions will be handled by the gold ring holder, although the in-game social roleplay will give the higher ranking members of the house the decisions, or at least a strong influence.

    PCs may be raised any number of ranks at once, until they hit the rank of knight. After that point they may only receive one promotion every four months. Each rank they rise costs one promotion from the house.

    Promoting a slave to a free peasant costs three promotions.

    There will be a storypoint cost upon earning the rank of knight, baronet, baron, and viscount. This cost is substantially less than if a character began the game with this rank. The cost is 50 points each time one of these ranks is achieved. This way the storypoint cost of playing a viscount is higher than the cost of playing a knight.

    There will be an additional cost when earning the rank of knight, baronet, baron, and viscount if your species is not the "expected" species for the House in question. (i.e. if you attain the rank of Knight for the Doloreaux, and you are not a pig or boar, there will be an additional cost). There will be a list of affiliated species, which will have a lower additional cost than non-affiliated species. This cost is 25 points per rank achieved with an affiliated species, and 50 points with a non-affiliated species. As above, this additional cost is only paid when achieving the rank of knight, baronet, baron, and viscount.

    One of the ranks in this list is the rank of "gentry" - characters that are not nobles, but are descended from nobles are considered to be in the gentry. Characters that are from foreign nobility, but do not have rank or rights as nobles here are also considered to be gentry. This means that if you want to claim descent from nobles (and have that accepted by staff and your character not accused of lying about being above their station) you will need to have your character promoted to that rank. There is a 100 storypoint cost to begin the game as gentry, but there is no cost if your character is promoted to gentry during the game.

    Anyone who marries one of the peers becomes a Lord or Lady (without a specific other title) and is on a rank with a knight (and pays the same storypoints as if they were promoted to a knight) - If they have their own rank, then they use their own rank and title instead.

    New characters may begin the game as gentry, or as nobles from the rank of Knight to Viscount.
    The costs are:
    Gentry - 100
    Knight - 500
    Baronet - 1000
    Baron - 1500
    Viscount - 2000

    Characters may be promoted in-game. There are no costs except for these specific promotions.
    The costs are:
    Knight - 50
    Baronet - +50 (total: 100, with the previously paid cost of knight)
    Baron - +50 (total: 150, with the previously paid cost of baron)
    Viscount - +50 (total: 200, with the previously paid cost of viscount)

    If the species of the character being promoted does not match the "expected" species there is an additional cost. Note that this cost ONLY applies to paying the storypoint cost for the ranks of knight/baronet/baron/viscount.
    The costs are:
    Expected species (Fox for Rinaldi, Wolf for Bisclavret, Boar or pig for Doloreax, Horse for Avoirdupois) - 0
    Affiliated species - 25
    non-affiliated species - 50

    The different official rankings are as follows:

    commoners
    slave
    serf / freedman
    yeoman
    burgher
    thane

    gentry
    gentry
    armigerous gentry (gentry that are granted a coat of arms)

    knightly (or low nobles)
    (all these knights just count as a "knight" as far as promotions are concerned. Anyone of knightly rank can join an order if they want to become a knight of an order rather than a knight bachelor)
    knight/dame banerett
    knight bachelor
    knight of an order

    peers
    baronet/baronetess
    baron/baroness
    viscount/viscountess
    earl/count/countess
    landgrave
    margrave/margravine
    marquis/marchioness
    duke/duchess
    Last edited by SHAzrael; 03-09-2008, 09:54 PM.
    Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

  • #2
    Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
    Promoting a slave to a free peasant costs three promotions.
    Promoted slaves will need to have their promotion/freedom RolePlayed, and likely will ned to pay a cost in denarii, either by the houses or by some third-party benefactor, in order to be free of debt to whoever the slave master is.

    However, at any time, staff can override what I just said, as they are staff, and I'm just playing a slave trader character.

    Remember, having your character become a slave is a very big decision, don't go into it lightly if you are a squeamish RolePlayer, or don't want to sacrifice the freedoms while you wait for the (likely not gonna happen) chance that a house uses three promotion points and a sum of denarii to free your character.
    OOC -- Doctor Hush says, "he eats blackholes"

    Comment


    • #3
      I will be quite frank. I don't agree with having to pay for a title with story points you earned -in game-. And yes I have heard it's to keep people from whining about favor being put on one person over another. But correct me if i'm wrong isn't the whole point of getting a title -in game- because you have someones favor in the first place? If i've worked my ass off to get a title and then I find out I have to pay story points on top of that I would be -very- pissed. What's the point of working for a title if you'll just have to use story points you most likely had to work for as well? You might as well start out as a noble if that's the case. You cut out all the work and pay points for it anyway. So why even work to get promoted in game?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gina View Post
        I will be quite frank. I don't agree with having to pay for a title with story points you earned -in game-. And yes I have heard it's to keep people from whining about favor being put on one person over another. But correct me if i'm wrong isn't the whole point of getting a title -in game- because you have someones favor in the first place?
        Yes, but the point of ICO itself isn't to rise in ranks to the highest level of nobility.
        If the aim of Ironclaw was to become a noble then we certainly wouldn't charge for it. If certain characters wish this to be their aim, then that is fine, but we charge the storypoints so that nobility isn't the "default" aim of all characters.

        We want commoners that get promoted to nobility, but we don't want that to be the norm. Storypoint costs are to encourage some players not to try OOC for nobility.

        Originally posted by Gina View Post
        If i've worked my ass off to get a title and then I find out I have to pay story points on top of that I would be -very- pissed.
        That's why we tell you upfront. So if you don't want to pay the storypoints, you don't have to work towards a goal you won't be achieving.

        Originally posted by Gina View Post
        What's the point of working for a title if you'll just have to use story points you most likely had to work for as well? You might as well start out as a noble if that's the case. You cut out all the work and pay points for it anyway. So why even work to get promoted in game?
        1) It will cost less storypoints if the promotion is earnt in-game.
        2) Some players will want to RP the struggle and triumphs of their characters rising through the ranks.

        But you're right, in most cases it won't be so worthwhile to play as a commoner who becomes a noble. It will often be easier to just start as a noble. This is intentional, as the setting works better with less characters moving between ranks. There is still some measure of movement, but for the greater part, most nobles would have been born as nobles.

        Commoners can still create and run guilds, build in power and political influence, and rival the nobles for power in the city. That is the intended "normal" route of influence gain.
        Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

        Comment


        • #5
          So why let people raise in rank at all? Honestly. If that's the case wouldn't it just be easier to say you have to start out as a noble. Before the story points even went in I -did not- want Gina to be a noble. I don't think it will be everyones goal to be a noble even if the story points weren't in the picture. I don't think being a noble is the default aim. If you make a character that's a blacksmith I don't think your going to say "Oh no I changed my mind I want him to be a Knight!" It's much more likely you'll try and make him the best blacksmith you can.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gina View Post
            So why let people raise in rank at all? Honestly. If that's the case wouldn't it just be easier to say you have to start out as a noble.
            Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
            2) Some players will want to RP the struggle and triumphs of their characters rising through the ranks.
            Originally posted by Gina View Post
            Before the story points even went in I -did not- want Gina to be a noble. I don't think it will be everyones goal to be a noble even if the story points weren't in the picture. I don't think being a noble is the default aim. If you make a character that's a blacksmith I don't think your going to say "Oh no I changed my mind I want him to be a Knight!" It's much more likely you'll try and make him the best blacksmith you can.
            Great. But for those characters, the storypoints for becoming a noble should be a non-issue. The storypoints are only an issue for the characters that *do* want to rise through the ranks.

            If we discover that the point costs are too high, making it infeasable to rise through the ranks as a commoner, then we will revise them. As it is, there are a lot of ranks, both as a commoner and as a noble, that can be gained without paying any storypoints at all.
            Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

            Comment


            • #7
              Its an interesting system. I can see both sides.

              In the end if it costs 500 to start as a knight and lets say 150 to be made a knight through RP that is a significant advantage. Its easy enough also to earn smaller amounts SP or borrow SP even.

              As a side note, Church titles should probably rank similarly to nobles. If S'Allumer is similar to the Catholic church, then it has a lot of power. It did after all through visible miracle end the last war between the Rinaldi and Avoirdupois. In addition, it probably has its own Canon law over its members. High ranking members of the Church are very similar in power/influence as a noble.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Brumble View Post
                Its an interesting system. I can see both sides.
                There are definately two sides to this, and I don't pretend that charging storypoints is an ideal solution. It certainly has its own problems and pitfalls.
                It's just a different solution to what some of the other games have, as we're trying to take ICO is a slightly different direction.

                Hopefully it'll work out for the best, and if not, we can revise how nobility ranking works.

                Originally posted by Brumble View Post
                In the end if it costs 500 to start as a knight and lets say 150 to be made a knight through RP that is a significant advantage. Its easy enough also to earn smaller amounts SP or borrow SP even.
                That's the intention, although I am aware that some players will have a harder or easier time gathering the storypoints.

                Originally posted by Brumble View Post
                As a side note, Church titles should probably rank similarly to nobles.
                Agreed, although I want to see how the nobility work out before making any declarations about the church.
                With nobles, there is nothing intrinsic that they can do which commoners can't do. With the church there are career paths, such as white magic, that are not otherwise available. I don't yet know if that's a significant enough point to warrant treating the church rankings differently to the nobility rankings.
                Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Only the 4 houses can promote? What if you are not part of the houses and might have aspirations to nobility? Say, an independent Sir Rhino or Dame Rat? What if you want to create, say, a new house? Perhaps be the first on your block elevated to knighthood separate from the other houses, and, indeed, want to rival them?

                  I'm also wondering why, if you've done sufficient ICly work to earn a promotion, you'd still have to pay StoryPoints. Seems like it generally is an either-or. If you want to get something you haven't earned ICly, then you pay StPs. If you've earned it, it seems like you're taxing ICly success, which discourages it.

                  Perhaps StPs might help 'buy' additional promotion slots for your house to ensure your elevation?

                  It just seems a tad off to me.


                  March, Paladin of S'allumer!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I hope that with the cost of storypoints for more things, there will also be an increase in ways of earning storypoints. As it is, there is not many ways of getting many stp's, other than being staff or paying premium, and many players can't afford to pay premium, and can't (or haven't been accepted to) be staff.

                    My two cents.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      Only the 4 houses can promote?
                      For the greater part, yes. There likely will be promotions available in other ways than from the houses, but those will be few and far between.


                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      What if you are not part of the houses and might have aspirations to nobility? Say, an independent Sir Rhino or Dame Rat? What if you want to create, say, a new house? Perhaps be the first on your block elevated to knighthood separate from the other houses, and, indeed, want to rival them?
                      If you manage to get one of those (rare) promotions that aren't tied to one of the Great Houses, and you use it to promote someone to Armigerous gentry, or to Knight, then they may be granted title and name for a new minor house, independant of the Great Houses.

                      This will not be easy to do, but will be possible.

                      Once a new house is established like this, if they want to promote anyone, they will need to get a promotion, either by getting their hands on another independant promotion, or by being given promotions from one of the Great Houses.

                      Starting characters (that paid for their nobility) will not be able to be from a new house, but they *will* be able to be from any of the non-great-houses already established in-game (assuming there aren't OOC objections from the other members)

                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      I'm also wondering why, if you've done sufficient ICly work to earn a promotion, you'd still have to pay StoryPoints. Seems like it generally is an either-or.
                      Generally it is, but for various reasons we've decided not to do things that way.

                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      If you want to get something you haven't earned ICly, then you pay StPs.
                      Not necessarily. Generally we charge StPs for "things that aren't generally available to most players" - including things like special materials or objects that may have been gained through roleplay.

                      If an item or ability isn't available to other players, then it should have cost storypoints.

                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      If you've earned it, it seems like you're taxing ICly success, which discourages it.
                      Yes, exactly. The thing is, the setting here *shouldn't* have too many commoners promoted to nobility. It should be a rather unusual thing. Obviously, that's a goal for many players, so we don't want to stop them following it. We do want to encourage the players to find other goals, though, that don't all involve promotions to nobility. This isn't CM where all the "nobility" are actually normal people who were promoted due to favor, in the Ironclaw setting most nobility should have been born as such.

                      That's the reason why we only charge storypoints for specific ranks of nobility, we want to allow room for advancement amongst the commoners. We want to encourage the players who want nobles to stop advancing at the lower ranks, as the vast majority of nobles would be lower ranked nobility.

                      The setting is also racist (against different types of animals), however we don't expect the *players* to have to enforce that. That is why we have an additional cost for advancing a noble character of the wrong species, so that we discourage players from becoming nobles with those species. That will hopefully make the greater proportion of nobles the "right" species, giving the impression of favourable promotion to the "right" animals, without the players having to pick and choose based on that criteria. (and still leaving the players of unusual animals free to become noble if that is their goal)

                      So you're right, it is a discouragement. But it's an intentional discouragement.

                      The "expected" route of gaining power would be from forming a guild, and gaining strength through other PCs joining and supporting your guild, or through good trading. There is no storypoint cost for that. The storypoint on advancement through nobility is because that is an "extra" optional way of gaining power.

                      Think of nobility as similar to gaining a magic sword in-game. You earnt it in-game, but it's special enough that we feel it still deserves a storypoint cost for you to keep it.

                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      Perhaps StPs might help 'buy' additional promotion slots for your house to ensure your elevation?
                      Interesting idea. Perhaps this could work alongside the cost.

                      Originally posted by March View Post
                      It just seems a tad off to me.
                      Originally posted by Tsi View Post
                      I hope that with the cost of storypoints for more things, there will also be an increase in ways of earning storypoints. As it is, there is not many ways of getting many stp's, other than being staff or paying premium, and many players can't afford to pay premium, and can't (or haven't been accepted to) be staff.

                      My two cents.
                      We have been, and will continue to, discuss options for more ways that players could gain storypoints.
                      Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SHAzrael View Post
                        We have been, and will continue to, discuss options for more ways that players could gain storypoints.
                        Well take the recent create creatures/things contest. Everyone who entered should have gotten 5-10 SP per thing they submitted, regardless if it won. So if someone submitted 5 things, even if nothing won they would have gotten 25-50 storypoints.

                        (Poke of staff, did the non winning entries get the points that were listed?)

                        Perhaps staff can keep a # of projects coming so folk get in the habit of entering. A staffer on CM had written up the format used for objects. Perhaps posting that here too.

                        If you find some folk who can write up good descriptions you can then recruit them as builders too

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                        • #13
                          I believe you were only supposed to be awarded if your ideas were used.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vorico View Post
                            I believe you were only supposed to be awarded if your ideas were used.
                            Good clarification.

                            Mostly I just wanted to encourage the staff to poke and prod and offer some cookies to get us off our asses to help with things, in part for those who wish to earn SP by helping the game to have a few different choices how.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The storypoints for the contest have been given.

                              Everyone that made a serious entry has had their object created, and been given points.

                              They weren't given 5-10 points for each entry, they were given 5-10 points in total for entering. More entries just gave more chances of winning one of the main prizes.

                              We plan to have mire similar projects, but first we need to make use of what you guys have already given us.

                              Using the karmode format is a great idea, we'll have to do that next time.
                              Mea squints at you, "For a magical nudist he sure is carrying lots of pie."

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