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  • Feedback/Suggestions/Discussion

    The very first Game of Grunts is coming quickly to an end as the Dragoon Army and the Giant fight it out.

    What are your thoughts on the GoFG so far?

    Specifically, what do you think about the current number of grunts used in combat. Would you like to see more? Less?

    How do you feel about Wanderers in the GoFGs?

    Feel free to post your ideas and comments here.
    10
    Yes, I liked GoFG and would like it to continue.
    90.00%
    9
    Yes, I liked GoFG, but would not like it to happen again.
    0.00%
    0
    No, I did not like GoFG, but would like it to continue.
    10.00%
    1
    No, I did not like GoFG, and would not like it to happen again.
    0.00%
    0
    Grendel's Revenge StoryGuide

  • #2
    The main thing I noticed was the imbalance between wanderers and socials.

    Socials have all the advantages: pure strength, ability to augment strength, far better abilities to further augment strength, ability to grow, ability to team up within and outside their clan, ability to split forces if desired, and more I've likely forgot.

    Wanders have a single advantage, their hidden dens.

    The last grunt count I saw for Garthok was:

    Garthok (Defending second), 10 units, 200 Attack, 350 Health.

    This was not excessively hard to reach. He was a fourth of Vorico's level. He, alone, is capable of taking Vorico 60% out. Itus, 200 levels lower, was able to take him out with incomplete forces in the very first phase. Again, social strength grows with time. WM strength is fixed.

    Smarmy only survived so long due to her ability, which incidentally is tailored for avoiding automatic death.

    Other than that, the abilities were not balanced in the least. I was offered three abilities. The one I chose was easily ten times as useful as each of the others.

    Even then, it would afford me only the average equivalent of 20 more attack. Itus's ability afforded him 56 more attack and health to his incomplete forces. It would grow as his forces grow, I assume, but I don't have the description of it. Smarmy's ability was extremely useful, even if the game was balanced. The only other one I gleaned was Rayen's, the same shoddy one I had.

    Comment


    • #3
      Excuse my double post.

      As for suggestions, I have a couple thing I believe would improve the game.

      Remove wanderer dens. WM should start in their dens, but not be able to return after initially leaving. Perhaps there could be some special situations in which they could, but not normally. Instead of allowing them to hide, make them into the wandering tanks that they should be. The catch with this is, they are forced into the open. Socials would attempt to swarm WM or get them to attack each other instead of WM being guerrilla warriors.

      ---

      Whether the above suggestion is taken or not, I feel more strongly about this next one. The game is not very strategic. The main, and probably only, thing blocking this is that the battles are too lengthy and damaging. Each one is a game ender, unless you're Smarmy. What is the purpose of having three back-and-forth swings per fight? Why not break each turn down into a single exchange? Opponents would remain in an area for next turn, by default, or would have the option of retreating to a different area. It'd obviously need restructuring of the phase concept and rebalancing, but I don't particularly find the game balanced at all anyway. It also might make the games last longer and require more GM support. However, I'd find the game greatly improved by this.

      If that suggestion is taken, Smarmy's trample ability could be retooled. Instead of allowing retreat, turn it into an uncoordinated trampling of all enemy forces that increases her attack by a percent:

      Vorico(120 attack) vs Garthok (10 grunts, 50hp each)
      Vorico would kill 2 grunts, and do 20 damage to a third.

      Smarmy (120 attack + 40% for trample) vs Garthok (10 grunts, 50hp each)
      Smarmy, using trample, does 168 damage divided among all enemies. Essentially, she trades the lowering of Garthok's future offense for the sake of killing him off faster.

      ---

      Third suggestion:

      Give people more than one ability. This could apply to only WM, or to everyone. Make these abilities selectable during order-giving time.
      Vorico might have :
      1. whirlwind (-20% base damage, +8% per enemy target, divides like trample)
      2. nightmare (grunts have a small chance of conveniently becoming lost before encounters, aka staying where they last were)
      3. corpse feast (slain enemies heal the user of 5-50% of their total hp, or just a flat %)
      4. blood oath (pick a clan/WM at beginning of game. do 20% more damage to them and take 20% less from them)

      I forgot my other utility abilities, and haven't paid yet. In essence, one is picked before each fight. The last one active is used if none are chosen. Certain abilities would be more useful in different situations. If I run into Smarmy, I don't want to be whirling, but corpse feast mine make my day. Whirlwind would be a godsend if socials decide to swarm you, while nightmare could keep some damage away.

      Comment


      • #4
        Addressing this first. A second post will address your suggestions.

        Originally posted by Vorico View Post
        The main thing I noticed was the imbalance between wanderers and socials.
        One of the most challenging things for me in the GoFGs was the WM vs Social aspect of it. Balance issues became more apparent once the decisions were in the hands of the players. Some scenario testing and number crunching wasn't enough to adequately insure both sides were ideal. Partway through Phase one I already had a list of changes to be made.


        [Shortened] WM strength is fixed.
        As is Social strength (max grunts with all bonuses is (default max) + 3 from grunt's fane. You can't go over this with reinforcements.) What was more of a problem was the social's force at max. A concern was that they could not hope to fight Wanderers if their forces were but only even with a WM's stats at best. The solution that is currently being considered might have Socials using a vastly larger number of grunts, far lower attack, and several options for recovering units. Wanderers would also become the walking fortresses of the plains that they should be.


        Other than that, the abilities were not balanced in the least. I was offered three abilities. The one I chose was easily ten times as useful as each of the others.
        Only about 10 abilities were not custom-tailored abilities. When speaking to each player individually, information was gathered, and a custom ability option (or options) was/were given to them. Wandering monsters got an entirely different set of options than SMs, on top of their custom options. The scale of options quickly escalated to a point that made it difficult to balance (or see imbalance.) As with Wanders vs Socials, a growing list of adjustments and additions is being made.
        Grendel's Revenge StoryGuide

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Vorico View Post
          Remove wanderer dens. WM should start in their dens, but not be able to return after initially leaving. Perhaps there could be some special situations in which they could, but not normally. Instead of allowing them to hide, make them into the wandering tanks that they should be. The catch with this is, they are forced into the open. Socials would attempt to swarm WM or get them to attack each other instead of WM being guerrilla warriors.
          I'd be interested in hearing what others think (specifically WMs or people who had trouble with WMs in the GoFG) of this idea. It may be that the concept of territory needs reworked for WMs if this happens.

          Whether the above suggestion is taken or not, I feel more strongly about this next one. The game is not very strategic. The main, and probably only, thing blocking this is that the battles are too lengthy and damaging.
          I believe it would be good to reduce combat to 1-round 'turns', instead of 3. The option to retreat would be nice. However, doing so will reveal the location you retreat to.

          It also might make the games last longer and require more GM support. However, I'd find the game greatly improved by this.
          I find it might be the opposite, actually. Another one of the challenges for the GoFG was collecting PMs from the forums, documenting information and orders, then calculating the results (grunt numbers, health, damage, finding remaining health from previous matches, grunt locations among 4-5+ groups, etc.), and doing that each turn was a lengthy, sometimes delaying process.

          While the type of information to gather would not change, the 'size' of it would, meaning that it would be much easier to hold daily turns, instead of a turn every 2-3 days.


          Third suggestion:

          Give people more than one ability. This could apply to only WM, or to everyone. Make these abilities selectable during order-giving time.
          This is something I believe would add much more strategy to the Game of Grunts. I like it.
          Grendel's Revenge StoryGuide

          Comment


          • #6
            Discussion Day 2

            To continue discussion of the Game of Grunts, here are some other topics we would like your opinions on:

            Terrain
            Plains, mountains, hills, dirt road, swamp, lair, etc. What do you think about the next Game of Grunts having terrain-based bonuses and penalties?


            Game Map
            Using an existing map of Uthgol and lining it with a grid (Think 'pawn to H7'). This would allow a more proper use of land, grunt numbers, and strategy. It would easily go hand-in-hand with 'Terrain'.

            Please note that this may delay some turns, however, as it would be a good deal of extra information to manage.


            Race
            Skeleton, Goblin, and Harpy vs simply 'grunts'. Would race-specific bonuses and abilities be something you think should be focused on and extended, or kept as-is?



            Finally, what is something that would make the next Game of Grunts more appealing for you personally?
            Grendel's Revenge StoryGuide

            Comment


            • #7
              I thought I was overpowered, honestly. Once I got reinforcements I had enough attack to one-shot basically anyone, if I could have chosen when and where to meet them. Instead, my only combat so far has been defending, which is a shame considering my unique ability made my HP worse at the cost of jacking up my offense...which I haven't gotten to utilize.

              More feedback later, but that's my main complaint so far: all the guns in the world and no one to aim them at.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Vorico View Post
                Remove wanderer dens. WM should start in their dens, but not be able to return after initially leaving. Perhaps there could be some special situations in which they could, but not normally.
                I agree to remove wanderer dens. However, I think WM should start in the Shrine, therefore, there are no special situations to go to their dens.

                Originally posted by Vorico View Post
                Smarmy's trample ability could be retooled. Instead of allowing retreat, turn it into an uncoordinated trampling of all enemy forces that increases her attack by a percent:
                I like this.

                Originally posted by Vorico View Post
                Give people more than one ability. This could apply to only WM, or to everyone. Make these abilities selectable during order-giving time.
                ... one is picked before each fight. The last one active is used if none are chosen. Certain abilities would be more useful in different situations.
                I agree with this as well, although I think only to WM, as socials fight as a team with grunts, who have limited capabilities.

                Perhaps, if flying is allowed, each participant (both WM and SM) can also have a choice of attack for flying targets.

                1. Socials would chose a grounded mode of attack and a mode of attack against flyers at the start of the game.
                2. Wanderers can chose a grounded mode of attack and a mode of attack against flyers at the start of each turn.

                ie: Smarmy can choose between Whirlwind, Stab or Stomp for normal targets, AND she can chose between Boulder Throw or Missle Weapons for flying targets at the start of each turn.
                Originally posted by Pence
                Terrain, Game Map
                I do not like these ideas. They complicates things unneccesarily. As far as RACE, I am undecided.

                That's about all I have to say for now.
                SMARMY the GIANT

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like the idea of applying races to the grunts and giving them some slight bonuses based upon that. Perhaps include that in the terrain idea which I also like.

                  Another thing maybe not a full fledged map of Uthgol, but I do think that a map would be a good idea. Set up like a miniaturized map and have it so that you can only move so many spaces per turn/round or however you want to implement to also increase the strategy of it. It's not feasible to say that I am going from Dragoon lair to grunts fane in one turn. They are way too far apart.

                  I do think that there does need to be some more balance between wanderers and socials and I do like the idea of selective abilities and one combat round tuns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pence View Post
                    The solution that is currently being considered might have Socials using a vastly larger number of grunts, far lower attack, and several options for recovering units. Wanderers would also become the walking fortresses of the plains that they should be.
                    Sounds good, but I'd have to see it before real comment.

                    Terrain
                    Plains, mountains, hills, dirt road, swamp, lair, etc. What do you think about the next Game of Grunts having terrain-based bonuses and penalties?


                    Game Map
                    Using an existing map of Uthgol and lining it with a grid (Think 'pawn to H7'). This would allow a more proper use of land, grunt numbers, and strategy. It would easily go hand-in-hand with 'Terrain'.

                    Please note that this may delay some turns, however, as it would be a good deal of extra information to manage.
                    This might work out well, but it might depend on the population of the game.

                    Race
                    Skeleton, Goblin, and Harpy vs simply 'grunts'. Would race-specific bonuses and abilities be something you think should be focused on and extended, or kept as-is?
                    This is already in place, in a form, in the bonuses provided based on caste. Expanding on that by providing caste abilities or such? Sure.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Garthok View Post
                      Another thing maybe not a full fledged map of Uthgol, but I do think that a map would be a good idea. Set up like a miniaturized map and have it so that you can only move so many spaces per turn/round or however you want to implement to also increase the strategy of it. It's not feasible to say that I am going from Dragoon lair to grunts fane in one turn. They are way too far apart.

                      It is likely that, if this addition is made, a custom or condensed map can be used.


                      Continuing the discussion, what are some things in Uthgol that you believe should be affected by the Game of Grunts war? For the first, ongoing GoFG, treasure is a real result of the game (even if the grunts were a bit slow to depositing it.) If possible, we would like to give the Game of Grunts a larger hold over Uthgol, making it more appealing to participate in.
                      Grendel's Revenge StoryGuide

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pence View Post
                        ...what are some things in Uthgol that you believe should be affected by the Game of Grunts war?
                        Perhaps random bands of grunts that pass by every once in a while, hurrying off to battle, or fleeing for home.

                        Originally posted by Pence View Post
                        ... treasure is a real result of the game (even if the grunts were a bit slow to depositing it.)
                        Any estimate on when we can expect the rewards? You had said earlier you would work on it.
                        SMARMY the GIANT

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Other issues I'm bringing up concerns the war chest and rewards.



                          WAR CHEST
                          1. Each war chest should have the participant's name on it (or clan name for socials). That, in itself, would be neat.
                          2. Although items can be removed from the war chests, they can not be put back in. It would be nice to be able to put other stuff in there. Perhaps some other way of showing which loot is won in AGoG is possible such as a corner of the chest?
                          REWARDS
                          1. I realize this is the first run of the game, but there should be reward items already coded and 'stockpiled' for the game host to distribute.
                          2. All rewards thus far have been enchanted rings, and not 'supreme' etc. Please make rewards supreme items!
                          3. Rewards should be items other than rings. Rings are the most common enchanted item in the game. Make a variety of reward types, such as armors, weapons, and special items. Special items would be unique things. [ If you need help creating so many items, ask for help. I'm sure there are many who would help.]
                          Some suggestions for unique AGoG items: A rainbow-colored fluffy wig, a magic-8 ball, a football, baseball, baseball bat, catcher's mit, a fairy-princess costume, a monster costume, a pitchfork, earrings and ear cuffs, a rubber squeak-toy, a Smarmy Doll (just had to), a kettle or cauldron, cologne or perfume, goggles, a fan, a snow-globe, squeaking clown boots or nose, a stool or chair, table or desk, a bonnet, a parasol, a belt buckle, rugs, hanging ornaments, a kite, a weapon rack fashioned from horns (useful for wanderers), backpacks and satchels that are unique, a baby rattle or snake rattle, a fountain pen, paper clip, candle, thong, lump of coal, a straw, a cup, a frying pan.
                          Some items could be used as weapons, such as the baseball bat, pitch fork and frying pan.
                          SMARMY the GIANT

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, I didn't participate in AGoG but I'll put in my two cents.

                            While I can't say I like the idea of terrain bonuses/penalties since Harpy grunts can fly and, well, would only receive penalties in underground terrains, I was actually thinking something more along the lines of special abilites that can only be used by certain Castes on certain Terrains.

                            For example, Chimera caste in Mountain Terrain can do an Ambush for an ability, Undead caste can do an Ambush from swamps since skeleton grunts don't die if drowned and...such, and the Humanoid caste can perform Ambush's from Forest terrains. Ambushing, of course, would provide a bonus to Attack for the Ambusher, and a penalty to attack on the Ambushee.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kalshyrn View Post

                              For example, Chimera caste in Mountain Terrain can do an Ambush for an ability, Undead caste can do an Ambush from swamps since skeleton grunts don't die if drowned and...such, and the Humanoid caste can perform Ambush's from Forest terrains. Ambushing, of course, would provide a bonus to Attack for the Ambusher, and a penalty to attack on the Ambushee.
                              I actually really like the idea of terrain-based benefits/abilities. It just makes sense.
                              -Usuichii, Great Scientist.

                              Smarmy the Titan bellows to you, "You look almost like an Ugly."

                              Blackhand the Orc grumbles: I don't know what to call you. No ugly is that vile, and no proper creature of Uthgol has ever had such a lack of honor!

                              Usuichii 1, Usuichii 2

                              Comment

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