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While I'm At it...

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  • While I'm At it...

    I just made a post about Claws (again), and I figure another topic of discussion to bring up should be CC and Venom.

    There's no real difference between these skills. one isn't Chimera only and one isn't UD only like PB/DB. They're probably the weakest support skills for attacks in the game.

    Venom and CC provide a flat (fairly low) additive Damage over time effect to Claws and Tail whip. The damage over time component increases over time, but never to the lengths of PB/Db--which is acceptable as those are main attacks.

    But to the point; do they really need to be a separate skill? requiring Claws and TA to have more skills than weapons or Magical attacks to reach maximum damage is fine.. If Claws and TA can compete. But they don't.

    I suggested in the other thread that CC and Venom apply some direct damage at the expense of the dot, and increase accuracy (thus giving claws the highest accuracy potential but the lowest burst potential as the damage is fixed and not weapon based) to make then valuable. Alternatively, merging CC and Venom and allowing it to increase accuracy seems like an upstanding solution as well.


  • #2
    Actually, as I have heard it, you can combine the Venom and CC abilities, allowing you to deal both types of damage to the target in a single attack. The possibility to do incredible amounts of damage quickly are potentially devistating.

    I use DB myself, and it's catastrophic to opponents at higher levels, but if you could combine it with Poison in the same attack... *Wonders if he should make a warrior* I can see the ability to kill groups of enemies quickly with this, three slashes to one, then move on.

    The lesser damage and accuracy of TN and TA are made up for by the fact of support abilities like that, and more so if you are a warrior.

    Comment


    • #3
      Whirlwind,claw, IC, CC, and venom make a good combination. Poison and crud go down only 10 a tick until you hit 500, each. That means you can double up the really long lasting damage, in addition to the rather high damage claw can do. It has better consistency, even if it's slower.

      If anything at all, the ratio needs to be slightly boosted.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pyrus View Post
        Actually, as I have heard it, you can combine the Venom and CC abilities, allowing you to deal both types of damage to the target in a single attack.

        I use DB myself, and it's catastrophic to opponents at higher levels, but if you could combine it with Poison in the same attack..

        The lesser damage and accuracy of TN and TA are made up for by the fact of support abilities like that, and more so if you are a warrior.
        Some misinterpreted facts about the abilities; From the time the target is infected by the damage over time of venom and crud you get a 3 "Claw xxx" window before they take the first tick of damage. Unlike DB/PB the damage is static and much lower. I believe Lasombra does ~300 Crud and Venom per claw slash. At the rate of gains for favoring it'd be like 1-1.3k completely maxed with the 2k T7 ranks.

        Exorn's Disease breath deals ~4-5k Poison. Exorn's skill takes 3 skills to do that. Crud and Venom take 4. Claws do a base damage that is true. And they shouldn't focus on the DoT it's ana dded bonus.

        In No way does that outweigh The accuracy of weapons. Claws can't even begin to do comparative damage. 2k Ranks of T&N and atleats 500, probably clsoer to 1k of Iron Claw, and Lasombra hits for 6k plus the piddly degenrative. As a Unmaxed Banshee with Stab and TW I was hitting in excess of 30k. There's no conceivable way you can tell me it's okay for weapons to hit for 30k+ (with JUST Maxed Stab and Duelist, not even 500 TW.) and be nearly three times* as accurate as claws.

        * Using base WM T7 Numbers for argument not adding stats.
        2k Ranks of T&N yield 2k accuracy. 2k Ranks of IronClaw yields about 750 accuracy. 2750 total accuracy.

        2k Ranks of Stab equals 2k accuracy. 2k ranks of Kon Equals 2k Accuracy. 2k ranks of duelist equals 2k accuracy. 6000 total accuracy.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
          Some misinterpreted facts about the abilities; From the time the target is infected by the damage over time of venom and crud you get a 3 "Claw xxx" window before they take the first tick of damage. Unlike DB/PB the damage is static and much lower. I believe Lasombra does ~300 Crud and Venom per claw slash. At the rate of gains for favoring it'd be like 1-1.3k completely maxed with the 2k T7 ranks.

          Exorn's Disease breath deals ~4-5k Poison. Exorn's skill takes 3 skills to do that. Crud and Venom take 4. Claws do a base damage that is true. And they shouldn't focus on the DoT it's ana dded bonus.

          In No way does that outweigh The accuracy of weapons. Claws can't even begin to do comparative damage. 2k Ranks of T&N and atleats 500, probably clsoer to 1k of Iron Claw, and Lasombra hits for 6k plus the piddly degenrative. As a Unmaxed Banshee with Stab and TW I was hitting in excess of 30k. There's no conceivable way you can tell me it's okay for weapons to hit for 30k+ (with JUST Maxed Stab and Duelist, not even 500 TW.) and be nearly three times* as accurate as claws.

          * Using base WM T7 Numbers for argument not adding stats.
          2k Ranks of T&N yield 2k accuracy. 2k Ranks of IronClaw yields about 750 accuracy. 2750 total accuracy.

          2k Ranks of Stab equals 2k accuracy. 2k ranks of Kon Equals 2k Accuracy. 2k ranks of duelist equals 2k accuracy. 6000 total accuracy.
          You shouldn't use exaggerated, unpractical numbers to support your claims. 30k damage was a heavy hit, with some of the largest and slowest weapons with two weapons, and maybe even with resonate added in. Wasn't one of them even against a race with physical weakness? A mage with CB, CL, and resonate could hit you for 50k or more damage in that RT. I could not reproduce the damage without resonate, with a more buffed up banshee.

          More practically, a maxed out banshee with two shivs (no resonate) averages around 4500 at just slightly over normal shiv speed (so many low damage hits).

          A maxed out banshee with claws/IC averages a nice, rather consistent 5500. Adding 1k of each crud and poison (seperate reduction), gives it a comparable damage potential to normal two weapon use. You can use a shield with it, as well as other weapon-restricting skills.

          The accuracy, on the other hand, is so low that it's unusable in PvP and even really high-end PvE. It should be given koncentrate, IMO. It should be put on par with missile weapons for accuracy. Giving it more accuracy than weapons takes out any advantage weapons has over it other than the lower RTs and slot limitations.

          Comment


          • #6
            Eh screw it. It's not even worth replying to you.
            Last edited by Lasombra; 12-16-2009, 09:57 PM. Reason: Not worth it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
              First of all, Lol, Kettle you black foo'. That right there eliminated me responding to this post in a serious manner. Laso never had Reso; Second the hit in question was 43k, I often averaged 20-30k on Cato who as a Basilisk had a melee resistance. Maybe if Cato feels like losing brain cells arguing with you she can give you some logs.

              I'm not going to bother. Instead I'll leave you with this.
              I'm actually not banned, blocked, or w/e. I actually do play the game.

              It wasn't an insult, so I don't know why I'd be the kettle. It was a suggestion to not use an impractical number, made up by someone trying to get the most exaggerated, useless number they could get that doesn't really apply to almost all normal situations.

              I didn't expect you to have a serious response. I expected you to respond, excusing yourself from serious conversation, while actually addressing half the post.

              If it helps, I did not post for you, nor ever did for Cato. I post to add to the discussion, for the playerbase of GR that does not have large objects stuck up their arse. If you don't want to respond to it, it should be easier for you to not.

              Comment


              • #8
                [Success: 50, Roll: 602] You stab Deesora the Ogre with your glowing supreme sharp crystal shard and your supreme sharp crystal shard! 14744 points of damage! Deesora the Ogre roars a final time before dying.

                [Success: 50, Roll: 664] You stab Taraj the Gryphon with your shimmering supreme shiv and your gleaming supreme shiv! 24950 points of damage! Taraj the Gryphon roars a final time before dying.

                Granted the last one is rune damage but even without the rune's double-damage, that's still a 5-digit damage hit, with the shivs you yourself used, not to mention the 14k hit using 7-sec crystal shards, no rune involved. So either you seriously, seriously, seriously sucked as a Banshee or Lasombra hacked the game. Which is more believable?

                edit: In before racial weaknesses, neither Gryphon or Ogre are weak to Stab.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I did not post highs, I posted averages.

                  With shivs, I ranged from 500 to 14000 damage(maybe slightly higher). My average was 4500, as the lower hits were more common.

                  With claws, I ranged from 3000 to 9000. The average was around 5500. It was much more consistent. Even Golane (despot/warrior) has a similar average to Vorico with shivs.

                  Those numbers are pretty close to what I got, though my damage should be a bit higher from being tougher stat-wise(I believe).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I was gonna make a snide remark insulting all the participants so far in this for discussing mechanics, much less warriors, but then I thought I'd contribute and make a serious post.

                    Then I re-read through the thread and decided to go with my first instinct upon seeing exactly what had been posted.

                    Maybe if the thread gets more in it than:

                    Lasombra: Numbers and observations
                    Vorico: Logical counterpoint
                    Lasombra: YOU SMELL
                    Catobelpas: LOL YEAH HE DOES
                    Vorico: ...k?

                    I'll post some serious stuff. Here's hoping!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was going to avoid further posting here because from past experience, arguing with Vorico on mechanics is an utter waste of my valuable time.

                      However, Rythgen's opinions are actually valued on the topic of Warriors by myself and many others, so, I will attempt to steer the conversation to a slightly better point than trolling Vorico.

                      Simply put to start off, you're using shivs and strictly shivs for your discussion of weapon damage. That's hardly an "average", that's a singular weapon that has a notoriously wild chance to do low or respectable damage. Anyone who's ever used Shivs knows that. You accuse my point of lacking empirical data, because of a few hits with a Titan Lance. I called you the Pot because you're doing the exact same thing you accused me of at the opposing end of the scale. Did you even use anything besides Shivs?

                      Any discussion of weapon damage has to be across the board, with the values of several stabbing weapons not *just* Shivs. Your average is also alot lower than Lasombra's; I'm not sure if it's due to weapon enchants, Deulist, statistics or what but Lasombra with Shivs averaged around 7.5-8k. Five digit hits were much less uncommon than you believe, and many a time I accidentally gibbed Shadar and Cato while testing. Shivs did tend to average in the higher four digit range. Shards, rapiers and Titan lances *averaged* in the 5 digit range. Titan Lances *averaged* 15-25k possessing the widest variation of all weaponry.

                      In direct regards to your claims that my values for Iron Claw are lower than they should be; no offense but you're one person. The Triad has had three people test claws at different tiers so as to remove the offensive bonus and penalty. The accuracy Bonus on ironclaw is lower than 50%.

                      In regards to your amusing claims I had resonance, I never had a sixth skill as a Banshee. I used Stab, TW, Duelist, Kon and Fort. My 43k swing was on a Wyvern with the rune, that is true. However I've had many hits that fell into the 20-30k range with the variety of weapons I experimented with.


                      Though I'm curious as to what any of this has to do with my suggestion to combine two underwhelming skills into one and free up some clutter.

                      The thread's initial intent was to discuss combining Crud and Venom into a single skill, or other possible ways to increase the value of them as skills. The notion of CC and Venom providing an accuracy bonus has already been denied by our GM. Apparently the thread wasn't read well, since I have never wanted claws to be stronger than weapons; merely a viable alternative. As evidenced here (note the part in bold):
                      Originally posted by Lasombra View Post

                      I suggested in the other thread that CC and Venom apply some direct damage at the expense of the dot, and increase accuracy (thus giving claws the highest accuracy potential but the lowest burst potential as the damage is fixed and not weapon based) to make them valuable.

                      To value claws over weapons would just reverse the current situation in which every warrior goes T&N over stab. I'd prefer to see players able to use what they enjoy and be effective.
                      Last edited by Lasombra; 12-17-2009, 09:53 AM. Reason: I speel gud

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I just got T&N, IC and Venom on Ralimere again. I'm going to try the full build and see what happens on a social. I've had this combo before, but due to the lack of accuracy, I unlearned everything and grabbed slice instead.

                        That being said, I never maxed IC, or Venom..So I'm curious to see what the damage will be like.

                        I like the idea of combining the two lower end skills into one, Venom and crud. The accuracy bonus would be nice considering we don't get Duelist or Koncentrate.

                        *Shrugs* Didn't add much to the conversation, but thought I'd throw my two cents in.

                        The Wind Of Death

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          2k T&N, 2k IC. But there's hope, because apparently True Sight is allowed magicals to receive accuracy added to their Natural attacks. Aldwyn's been very cooperative regarding the fixing of the claw problem, so hopefully with my testing and his willingness to deal with my data and nagging we'll fix claws.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
                            Simply put to start off, you're using shivs and strictly shivs for your discussion of weapon damage. That's hardly an "average", that's a singular weapon that has a notoriously wild chance to do low or respectable damage. Anyone who's ever used Shivs knows that. You accuse my point of lacking empirical data, because of a few hits with a Titan Lance. I called you the Pot because you're doing the exact same thing you accused me of at the opposing end of the scale. Did you even use anything besides Shivs?
                            Any discussion of weapon damage has to be across the board, with the values of several stabbing weapons not *just* Shivs.
                            I tested shivs, rapiers, estocs, shards, daggers, and titan lances. I believe I tested a few more, but those were the ones I bothered to document and calculate averages for.

                            Shivs had the highest DoT, as expected, and as assumed/known by anyone who has used one for...ages? They are the ones best used in discussions, because they are what people use the most (dirks and blackjacks to a lesser extent).

                            Rapiers, estocs, daggers, shards, and titan lances are all slower. For each second slower, they add small average damage increases, except for shards. Shards seemed to be above the curve of suckage enough to be useable, compared to shivs. I don't know why.

                            Given that, the only one I feel necessary to add is the titan lance. I didn't test it nearly as extensively(only 50 or so hits) for the obvious reason, though it's average was 15k or so.

                            Your average is also alot lower than Lasombra's; I'm not sure if it's due to weapon enchants, Deulist, statistics or what but Lasombra with Shivs averaged around 7.5-8k. Five digit hits were much less uncommon than you believe.
                            1350 strength and 3183 agility before day/night, 1.5k stab, 1.5k duelist, 1.5k konc, 1.5k BO, and two supreme shadowy shivs won in the arena.

                            5 digits numbers were not rare. 3 digit numbers were not unheard of either, and 1-3k was common.

                            8k is really high, over the halfway point in the range. I've never experienced that sort of lasting consistency with melee weapons. I believed it could stretch upward of 6k. Maybe you do have something special going for you, mechanics-wise.

                            In direct regards to your claims that my values for Iron Claw are lower than they should be; no offense but you're one person. The Triad has had three people test claws at different tiers so as to remove the offensive bonus and penalty. The accuracy Bonus on ironclaw is lower than 50%.
                            50% is a decent bit higher than 37.5%. I put it at around 40%, but it wasn't an important note.

                            In regards to your amusing claims I had resonance, I never had a sixth skill as a Banshee. I used Stab, TW, Duelist, Kon and Fort. My 43k swing was on a Wyvern with the rune, that is true. However I've had many hits that fell into the 20-30k range with the variety of weapons I experimented with.
                            Not sure why it's amusing. You were being astonished by the huge damage rolls. I would have tinkered with resonance to see how massive I could have gotten them. Is must be outrageous to think you'd dare pick up a sixth skill while I wasn't training my focus on your progress, right?

                            Though, no, actually I'd passingly assumed you'd had someone else resonate the targets. I never hit anywhere close to 43k. I'm glad you confirmed you didn't have someone resonate.

                            Though I'm curious as to what any of this has to do with my suggestion to combine two underwhelming skills into one and free up some clutter.
                            You suggested giving claws more accuracy than weapons. As I stated, IMO, claws already do comparable damage to weapons, that is varied. Does claws have a known resistance enchantment?

                            I suggested, instead, to just give them koncentrate. It is more logical. Why do you need a weapon to think hard about hitting someone? In what way does being toxic increase you chances of hitting someone? My other suggestion was to increase the ratio of DoT to rank. I think accuracy is a better solution though, as I see it as claws' only major flaw.

                            ---

                            However, I'm curious how directly addressing what you posted can be derailing the subject. If you don't think the damage comparison to weapons is significant, don't post about it, silly.

                            Claws can't even begin to do comparative damage. 2k Ranks of T&N and atleats 500, probably clsoer to 1k of Iron Claw, and Lasombra hits for 6k plus the piddly degenrative. As a Unmaxed Banshee with Stab and TW I was hitting in excess of 30k. There's no conceivable way you can tell me it's okay for weapons to hit for 30k+ (with JUST Maxed Stab and Duelist, not even 500 TW.) and be nearly three times* as accurate as claws.
                            Last edited by Vorico; 12-18-2009, 02:00 PM. Reason: Typos galore

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What I find strange is that people are still trying to fix a game where the mechanical foundation is inherently flawed. The game is not balanced and never will be till it's redone from the ground up.

                              Until then, its just mechanical band aids to stop the bleeding.
                              Originally posted by Usuichii
                              Vyshka the Wyvern hisses to a round silver mirror, "Rythvea"
                              Vyshka the Wyvern hisses to a round silver mirror, "Rythvea"
                              Vyshka the Wyvern hisses to a round silver mirror, "Rythvea"

                              If you say it three times, they say they'll come after you that night.
                              Originally posted by fiendish_thingy
                              They say the last thing you notice before you die is the faint smell of cinnamon and bacon.
                              Originally posted by kaoslace
                              I find your lack of doughnuts disturbing.

                              Comment

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