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Leadership Skills Change Idea

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  • Leadership Skills Change Idea

    I have what I believe to be a new way to do passive leadership skills...

    RP-wise, leadership skills are supposed to represent both training and insight that masters give, as well as the effects of the leader caring for the minion properly.

    Mechanics-wise, many people do not wish for a nerf to the basic intended function of leadership skills, while many people also believe that newlings should not get instantly get the full effect of a high-level leadership skill. And many have other concerns with leadership skills as well.

    What about doing things like this:

    Instead of the effects of Warmonger (or a similar ability) being directly given to minions, each monster have a "Warmonger Counter". The value of this counter (which can go 0 to 1000, just like the skill) is what actually determines the effects -- if your Counter is 50, you have the effects of level 50 Warmonger.

    Okay, got what the counter is? Now here's how your counter is determined:

    Let's say Joe Newling the Troll joins the game, a brand new pure warrior. His Warmonger Counter is 0. Now let's say he meets up with Bob the Minotaur, a pure leader with just 10 ranks of Warmonger. Bob can't teach Joe much as he's not too skilled, but such a small amount can be taught quickly, and so Joe's Warmonger Counter goes up to 10.

    Joe Newling now gets the effects of 10 ranks of Warmonger, just like the way leadership skills work now.

    Now then, let's say Joe takes a nap for a while, and Bob gets his Warmonger up to 50 during that time. Joe couldn't have learned anything while he slept, so Joe's Warmonger counter doesn't rise with Bob's skill. However, then Joe wakes up, ready to learn. He goes and asks Bob to teach him how to fight better, and so Bob does his best. However, Joe can only learn and train so much in a day, so Joe's Warmonger Counter only goes up to 20. He'll have to absorb those lessons on the next day. And he does; Bob and Joe practice again, maybe together with other students of Bob's, and Joe pushes his Warmonger Counter up to 30, continuing each day until he gets up to 50, where he cannot go further until Bob raises his Warmonger more.

    Now, let's say that Joe decided to leave Bob, wander a few days, and then join up with a more skilled master. Joe still somewhat retains his lessons, and the effects of his training are still with him, but without it being maintained, it drains away. Each day, his Warmonger Counter reduces by 10, getting down to 20 on the third day. As this happens, his stats bonuses drop accordingly. Then, he joins up with a new master Frank the Ogre, one with 300 ranks of Warmonger. Joe begins training again, and slowly recovers, back up to 50 after 3 more days, and he can keep going up to 300, as long as he and Frank meet up for practice each day.

    Finally, let's say that Joe gets his Warmonger Counter up to 300, but Frank gets too busy or too sleepy to meet up to train wit him for a while. Each day that Joe isn't fully cared for, Joe suffers just a little, and his Warmonger Counter goes down 1. We can assume that Joe's getting whatever Frank arranged for him like meals and such, or what Frank asked others to help him with ("Hey Tina, could you make sure Joe gets fed properly and his bedding changed while I sleep? Thanks.), but Joe isn't getting the real deal. Joe'll be fine though if Frank doesn't sleep too long -- 10 days later, Joe's counter will be down to 290, but if he meets up with Frank he can gain the 10 for training and be right back up.

    That's enough example for now; I think you get the idea. Here's the actual mechanics (using Warmonger here, but applying similarly to other passive leade skills):
    • The Warmonger Counter of a Monster is used to determine what benefits he gets, rather than the Warmonger Ability his master directly.
    • Each day that a warrior enters the location of his master, his Warmonger Counter goes up, to the limit of his master's Warmonger Ability.
    • Each day that a monster is not under a master with a Warmonger Ability at least equal to the monster's Warmonger Counter, the monster's Warmonger Counter goes down.
    • Each day that a monster is under leader with Warmonger Ability at least equal to the monster's Warmonger Counter, that monster's Counter goes down very slightly.
    • A monster with a leader ability that applies to himself (any leader with Bureau, or a leader/warrior with Warmonger), may count his own ability instead of his master's, using whichever is higher, for all calculations.

    Advantages and Disadvantages with this system:
    • Advantages
    • Enourages and allows for roleplaying, without forcing roleplaying, and without creating 'uber-newlings'. First, these daily meetings are opportunities, for training lessons and such, but those who are disinclined to roleplay can simply meet up for a moment and walk off. Second, someone can establish a character over time, and spend their time online roleplaying, and gain some amount of strength. Not as much or as fast as someone who works to get much favor, but at least enough so that this established roleplaying character won't be a complete pushover for some newling.
    • Adds a bit of realism, for what that's worth. Sure, lots of stuff isn't realistic in this game, and much isn't meant to be, but taking time to train up as well as retaining a portion for a while makes sense, to me at least. And a master who's asleep all the time can't really care well for minions, and any monster who himself sleeps for an extended period will be a bit out of practice.
    • Disadvantages
    • Coding this would take some time and care. This system is relatively straightforward, but even the simplist things could slow the system down resulting in lag. The engine that GR runs is based on loading objects into memory when needed and unloading them once done; any mechanics that cause lots of checking parts of lots of different game objects will lag the game, badly.
    • A change this big will cause some disadvantages to some. Some people might be unhappy at doing things a new way, and some might not be able to meet the requirement of meeting at least once every few days.

    With that said, here's a bit on tweaking the system to achieve balance:
    • Adjust the numbers. Maybe the counter should go up 20 each day. Or maybe allow two training sessions a day, if they're seperated by a few hours. Or have the rates vary -- maybe your counter goes up by your level divided by 10, or maybe if your counter is less than your master's rank, your master is so skilled that he can teach you the basics quickly. All sorts of ways of varying it is possible; the GM's would have to decide, and likely do some testing.
    • Adjust for dual-roles. Many people believe that dual-roles monsters should receive only a portion of the effects of leader abilities, having the possibility of all leader skills affecting them adding up, but I'll leave that discussion for elsewhere. What I mean with the mechanics I proposed above, is adjusting the numbers so that single-roled monsters have their counters increase faster and/or decrease slower for the one skill that affects them. Not reducing it to half -- dual/roleing shouldn't affect one's learning and training abilities -- but the lack of focus that dual-roles have would make them a bit slower in each specialized area.

  • #2
    I think its generally a good idea...But...

    I see three least for me...

    First, established monsters who are a higher level would have to start all over again if what I understand is true. A lot of people wont like this.

    The second, what happeneds with mechanics, im an idiot about these things, when someone like my character, Bae'Lin, has to train with his leader, and someone wants to train with me? Does that effect anything?

    And lastly, I personally forsee moments where I won't be around, emegencies, vacations, and I'm having a child soon. Should others have to suffer cause Bae'Lin sleeps?

    These were just the first things that popped into my head...They might be totally nil points, but...*shrugs*

    Bae'Lin the Melee Bard

    Thanks to Tanz for the Pic

    Feldin The Mana Snorting Sphinx


    • #3
      Taking each concern in turn...

      Established monsters
      The counters for all existing monsters could be set to some value when this mechanic is implemented. Maybe set to their current leader's skill (as if the minion had already been training for some time, whether or not he actually has). Or setting it to the monster's level, which I think would be a bit more fair, so that those monsters (young or old) who happen to have a good master at the moment don't lock in a very high value.

      Multiple training
      The training, the lessons, the care... all that is left to the roleplaying that players choose to do or not do. All the mechanics require is that, at some point in the day, the master and the minion be in the same location. Forcing more would likely just cause unhappiness for those who choose not to roleplay it out. Maybe require the leader to enter a command ("train joe"), so the system doesn't bog down with checks every time someone enters an area. Yeah, I think the command would be better. But you mention multiple training... sure, someone could both be learning and teaching. Just need to have each monster train any minions of his/hers/it.

      Degeneration over time might seem a bit harsh if someone is gone for a while, but it really isn't -- with the numbers outlined above, it would take 1000 days (about 3 years) to degenerate from 1000 down to 0. If you were gone for a month, you could get back up to where you were in three days. A leader needn't train minions but once a week to maintain them, if they already are close to the leader's limit.

      Good comments; I hope this answers everything sufficiently.


      • #4
        Ive always thought people shouldnt get bonuses from a sleeping master...doesnt seem right.How ever they do fix it,i hope they'll have something like this system,a slight penalty for minions of an inactive leader...

        Just my two cents....
        You can't stand my Gouf.


        • #5
          sounds better then what we got now though i didn't read it all.
          <Pishaw the Dwerger grumbles: Use a fish. Be civilised.>

          Cedextra the Dwerger snarls, "He can say those things hes a Synchar"
          You grunt to Cedextra the Dwerger, "YES!"

          <Arkhanno the Hydra grumbles: im known for my poisonous gas 8)>

          <Arkhanno the Hydra grumbles: hello pink eyed lizard>
          <Cedextra the Dwerger grumbles: arkhanno i will not tolerate Humanoid courting chimeras!>
          <Pishaw the Troglodyte grumbles: He's been after my tail ever since we found it came off and regrew.>

          You hear a Harpy warrior yell, "Sure, just leave me over here all alone.", from the west.


          • #6
            I can think of a few much more numerical and mechanical solution that directly addresses the problem of low level minions receiving high level leader bonus'.

            Warmonger + Minion level - Masters level / 10 = % of actual bonus

            This system gives bonus dependant on the minion and master being relatively close in level.

            Under this system a minion who was level 10 (and below) with a master level 1000, and warmonger at 1000 would only recieve a 1% bonus of the actual 100% of the 1000 warmonger bonus.
            This does a few things. Encourages new leaders as you would need new leaders to give a better % bonus to lower level minions, while significantly lowering the bonus for low level minions under strong warmongers. [Also note, the maximum benefits of warmonger still apply and higher level minions do not gain 100%+ bonus'.]

            This is one that I worked out quickly, I haven't deliberated long over it so there are possible bugs with mechanics, but I think when a fix is implemented, we'll see something like this numerical fix. The reason being is almost all skills and such are already dependant on these types of numerical calculations. This is only one example mind you, and the GM's will likely implement their own different calculation, but it is a possible fix.


            • #7
              Originally posted by Blackhand
              Multiple training
              The training, the lessons, the care... all that is left to the roleplaying that players choose to do or not do. All the mechanics require is that, at some point in the day, the master and the minion be in the same location....
              Also, just one problem. I know in our clan, there are some members that are rarely if ever awake at the same time as their master. This would kind of kill their oppurtunities of ever reaching the same level as other socials who have more time, or simply play more popular hours.


              • #8
                What is the problem in that? Why should they get bonus when they don't work for it? That's the whole point of this solution....Which I agree with.



                • #9
                  The problem is, they may still play, just not at the same time as the leader. So why should people be penalized if they're in a different time zone, or play at odd hours?


                  • #10
                    Ooooooooooh ok, I was thinking that you were talking about people who just didn't play at all.

                    Malice 1
                    Whindanser 0



                    • #11
                      Nah, I agree with you there. Low level characters shouldn't get the same bonus as higher level characters, to an extent that means playing more and putting more work into the character.


                      • #12
                        Tell me if I make a mistake in your equation Malice.

                        Keyrn, is level 457, who has 1000 in warmonger. I'll just assume somebody going under him is level 150.

                        (1150) (693) (69.3)
                        1000 + 150 - 457 /10

                        So, somebody who is level 150, would get a 70% bonus, of course, using Keyrn as an example. The levels don't seem that close to me.
                        Vote GR
                        Vote GR
                        Originally posted by A Dwarf Engineer
                        Crossbows were good and fine, but nowadays, a gun is better - and if a gun is good, then an automated self-aiming gyro-mounted gun turret with a cyclic grenade feeder and napalm cannister is even better yet!


                        • #13
                          That math is correct. Also, if it is determined necessary, that situation you equated can be altered. To me, someone who is 150 getting 70% of the 1000 bonus really isn't that bad. Consider these three things:
                          • Under Blackhand's system, a level 1 character could still have the effects of a 1000 warmonger, althought it would be unlikely.
                          • The biggest problem we hear about is low level minions getting huge bonus'. Level 150, although not an extremely high level, shows at least some dedication to development.
                          • There are currently no restrictions like this on leader abilities.

                          Reform is not meant to cripple others, despite some belief that it should. Also remember, that as the warmonger becomes stronger, so his minions will become weaker with this system in particular. So if that level 150 minion didn't train when Keyrn reaches level 600 the minions bonus would go down to 55%. When he goes to level 800 the bonus goes to 35. And at level 1000 the minions bonus is only 15%.

                          And finally, as I said, this is only an example of possible mechanics, just as Blackhands suggestion is only and example/suggestion. The GM's would likely do more then 10 minutes of calculations to come up with a fix.


                          • #14
                            The system Malice suggests has its benefits, one being simplicity in implementation. And I do believe that it's been bandied about before, or at least things like it.

                            One thing that impelled me to write up that giant post was how it allowed monsters who focused on roleplay to have a way to gain some strength over time. Something like this exists already; anyone, new or old, can join a strong master and get a boost. But this lets a ten-minute old monster gain the equivalent of 150-or-so levels.

                            Making a monster work for bonuses gained is something that the community thinks is good, but basing it on levels is a little of making the strong stronger And it leaves established characters who don't powertrain in the dust. Level is one indication of power, but you only get it for certain things. The method I suggested lets the roleplayer play, and eventually gain a decent amount of power, without having true newlings being able to jump ahead.


                            • #15
                              I agree entirely with Blackhand's idea, as it goes hand in hand with an idea Netze, Baelin, Fierem, Blackhand, Korkvir, Darmage and many others share. The Reublic, once up nad runnin will more than likely establish A Roleplaying period, where such interaction can and should occur. I feel that Blackhand's suggestion would encourage more clans to do the same, and thus in the long run, better our community; which really is what we wish to do in the long run.

                              Removed quasi-offensive material.
                              "A Losambra can not see her reflection in the mirror, this is thought to be a punishment for her vanity"- VTM Rulebook

                              Valentina, The Losambra Empress