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A moved post about the stench of (social) magicals.

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  • A moved post about the stench of (social) magicals.

    To be a social magical is the same as blowing off your arms and attempting to strangle someone. There is only a glimmer of hope that you will be able to kill someone, if you are magical or just happen to be missing your limbs.

    This has been discussed many of times, very often. Here's a list of places its been debated, and even this list is going to be incomplete.
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals
    http://forum.skotos.net/showthread.p...light=Magicals

    Thats just a few of them, going back to 2003 for some of them. I can tell you this. Social mages will still stink at PvP mechanically, no matter what skills they take as long as they are fighting someone around their level (and probably often 100 levels below it), as long as that other person has those magical leader bonuses, is built for fighting, and has a decent idea of what to favor. Neither of those there are that hard. to achieve. Now, why do the stink stink at PvP after they got that wild ability ot focus? I'm sure many of you want us mages to quit whining. Mechanically, its not going to help. Any Shaman, warrior Leader, or even builder can get the 2k defense to avoid any magical attack, and in any case excede that to nullify (aka, 950) magicals. Sure, one lucky attack of PB (only avaliable to chimera) might be able to slowly kill someone. Focus, don't get me wrong, is great in the damage area. I do fear that it will be lacking in the accuracy area, as I predict from hearing Exorn and Necrophage. I simply don't see mages competing with other roles for their respective castes in PvP. For wasted time, yes I see mages taking the gold in that category. Mages are meant to be fighters, pure or unpure; not a waste of time.
    Forgot to mention, this is probably why I won't be renewing when the time comes. And yes, may numbers my be off, but the general concept is the same despite what ever numbers I use.
    Last edited by Norin; 05-26-2004, 07:59 PM.
    Before you is a wraithlike gryphon, the air around him shimmering with bright flares of magic. The scent of gold and alchemy ingrediants permeates from him. Gunk and sap resides within his fur, resulting from a lack of grooming. Occasional scars and ample scabs are the only break from his black, unkept hide. His infested claws are covered in a grey creep that maggots writhe about in. At the end of his elongated tail is a bulk of deformed bone with spikes emerging from it. A layer of creep also covers this deformity. Sharply contrasting the rest of his body are his trimmed wings, carefully preened to be presentable. Upon the ends of these sinewy wings reside a circle of white feathers. Green eyes reside above his straight beak.

  • #2
    I heartily agree, and it has been said before, though not quite as well. I just wish the GMs would actually do something about it.

    Edit: I'd also like to point out that a lot of the other roles' power come from leader abilities. Toasty, for example, was not able to handle her spawn when she was no longer under a leader with high Spirituality.

    This has been said before, of course, but I feel it should be said again. Magi need leader abilities just as much as other roles. You can say all you want that we don't, but the evidence is in every mage out there. I will take Coranth(Magical) for an example, though he is still low leveled. Laroder(Shaman/Magical) would be able to kill him with one blast of firebreathing, (which he tended to do randomly), when Coranth was twice his level. Yes, Laroder is part mage and used a mage ability...but all the power came from Spirituality.

    I also think there need to be mage sub-roles. Oh yeah, the diversity argument...keep in mind, Warriors, Shaman, every role can be just as diverse as the Magicals. But why is it that Magical have no sub-roles? I don't know and won't even try to guess. But I assure you, the fact that a role can be really diverse is what causes the sub-roles. Sub-roles are more meant to provide bonuses to some things and penalties to others, and also helps to encourage making certain builds of Magicals. It should be rather easy for Magicals, for you could at least just make four elemental sub-roles. Then there could be one where Energy is given a boost, though I'm not intelligent enough to come up with the reasoning for it. I'm sure there are others...perhaps a sort more defensive than powerful, as many Magicals are not that way.

    I think that's a somewhat the basic message of what some people think needs to be done to Magicals. The abilities are just fine. It's the role that needs to be fixed. And one last thing...Magicals are suppose to be the Chimera's strongest combat role *supposedly* since they can't be warrior and humanoids can't be mage. However, Chimera tend to rely more on the Shaman/Mage role for offensive power, falling back on Spirituality to back the Magical attacks and supported by Shaman defensive skills. Something wrong with that....
    Current Monster: Nadriel the Hydra

    -----------------
    "It's easy to criticize someone who generates an idea, assumes the risk."

    Comment


    • #3
      Toasty, for example, was not able to handle her spawn when she was no longer under a leader with high Spirituality.
      You can't blame that all on the magical role... Just about everyone under a leader with a maxed bonus like warmonger or spirituality will start building their character to depend on that ability like a crutch... so that the minute that leader bonus is taken away, they suddenly can't handle any of their own spawns because they never favored their offense/defense properly.

      They're laughing at you behind your back.
      They all want to see you die a horrible death.
      They want you to put your pants back on.
      You squint.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm not blaming that on the Magical role. I'm using that to point out just how much power leader bonuses give to the other roles. To point out how much certain builds rely on leader bonuses, as well.

        I'll argue later...I need to go to sleep for my last day of school
        Current Monster: Nadriel the Hydra

        -----------------
        "It's easy to criticize someone who generates an idea, assumes the risk."

        Comment


        • #5
          Social mages do OK..Look at Rozial,Lurky,and whindy...But its the pure mages that are boned pretty bad.
          You can't stand my Gouf.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DrakeWurrum
            Toasty, for example, was not able to handle her spawn when she was no longer under a leader with high Spirituality.
            Actually, with my Sphere of Protection, I was handling them pretty well.

            Edit: Also, you don't need to handle your spawns to level. I got beat on regularly and I was leveling like crazy.

            Edit Edit: I would also like to point out in my own defense since I was being used as an example that I'm not Shaman/Mage just to get the leader bonus of Spirituality so I can have a 50 on things. I'm Shaman/Mage because I liked both magical and shaman abilities. I have more shaman abilities than I do magical, and Toasty actually started out as Mage/Shaman.
            <Zetsu the Vampire grumbles: [ GR's like meth... you try it once and for the next 10 years you're still hooked to it no matter how bad it gets ]>

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm sick of commenting on this subject. A social pure mage will never compare to a social pure warrior, shaman, leader, or even builder of the same level with the way things are. I don't know what will fix it, but I do know something needs to be done. It's getting ridiculous.
              Rythgen says:
              "arg! i would defend myself but my massive schlong prevents me from moving!"
              The current rune bearer is Jinn the Hydra, who is located very far away to the northeast at a hot shaft.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DrakeWurrum
                But why is it that Magical have no sub-roles? I don't know and won't even try to guess.
                Perhaps it was intended that mages would have such a varied number number of abilities, that you could essentially mix and match for entirely different characters. While on the other hand, every warrior will have IC or a weapon skill, etc.

                Of course, it didn't work out like that.

                As for elemental sub-roles... blech. Everyone'd just go with the subrole matching their main attack. Which wouldn't make for much variety. While I do like the idea of elemental customization, doing it as a mage subrole isn't the way to go, I think.

                As for leader abilities... I've not had Warmonger all year. And still hunt fine.

                All this aside, yes pure social mages and primary-mage socials do suck. No if's, and's, or but's about it. And no, Focus doesn't cure the situation. The GM's are aware of this and doing what they can, I expect. I see Sceadu active often enough... certainly he's not just throwing lightning bolts around all the time.
                Blackhand

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ColdFire
                  I'm sick of commenting on this subject. A social pure mage will never compare to a social pure warrior, shaman, leader, or even builder of the same level with the way things are. I don't know what will fix it, but I do know something needs to be done. It's getting ridiculous.
                  I know what will fix it. Magical leader bonuses!
                  <Zetsu the Vampire grumbles: [ GR's like meth... you try it once and for the next 10 years you're still hooked to it no matter how bad it gets ]>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    *stabs Toasty*

                    No!

                    An imbalance is an opportunity to introduce something new!

                    It shouldn't be wasted on simply cloning existing mechanics.

                    There's plenty of suggestions in the threads Norin listed. And elsewhere.

                    Hmm... actually, on review, it looks like one of my better posts on the subject got eaten. Maybe I'll get around to remaking it.
                    Blackhand

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      *pulls the stabbity out of her head* It was a JOKE! ;___;! And your post got eaten? Hmm .. since Snillo started posting, things have begun disappearing.....
                      <Zetsu the Vampire grumbles: [ GR's like meth... you try it once and for the next 10 years you're still hooked to it no matter how bad it gets ]>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Use Stun stun any warrior for close to a minute and just laugh as they sit their unable to do anything and you can get 15 bloody attacks on them.

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                        • #13
                          Stun's counterable in quite a few ways.

                          Not to mention not all that useful if the mage only hits once every twenty tries.

                          Which will be the case with the opponent having a leader skill.

                          Of course, I'd always rather have a mage teaming up with me than another warrior - he stuns and runs, I deal the actual damage and protect the mage, as I can.

                          Well... I might deal actual damage if I've got Warmonger. Which I don't at the moment, but I'm the exception, not the rule.
                          Blackhand

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                          • #14
                            Yes, that is currently the main problem with pure mages. They just can't hit any of the other roles when they're backed by a highly ranked leader skill. Plenty of power, but not enough accuracy. Of course, I'm sure there's something wrong with defense, too, but that depends more on the build.

                            Originally posted by ColdFire:
                            I'm sick of commenting on this subject. A social pure mage will never compare to a social pure warrior, shaman, leader, or even builder of the same level with the way things are. I don't know what will fix it, but I do know something needs to be done. It's getting ridiculous.
                            Well, ya, of course it's getting ridiculous. Everybody knows that. But I think by us discussing it, arguing about it, what-have-you will bring it up on the GMs list of things-to-do.

                            Originally posted by Toasty:
                            Magical leader bonuses!
                            Yes, that would fix it, though it would not be entirely unique. I say fix it first, improve it later
                            Current Monster: Nadriel the Hydra

                            -----------------
                            "It's easy to criticize someone who generates an idea, assumes the risk."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Range attacks are the key.

                              And offense abilities.

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