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Metallurgy

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  • Metallurgy

    What are we basing the metals in TEC off of? How are their weights determined? How is the effectiveness as armor of these materials determined? Why?

    Bronze is a high quality alloy of Copper and Tin. It does not keep an edge like carbon steel but it is very effective as armor and as a bladed weapon.

    Iron is a pure mineral that is softer than bronze and INCREDIBLY difficult to purify (there is no naturally occurring pure iron source on this planet). Pure iron was never used for weapons or tools.

    Wrought Iron is a much harder iron alloy filled with impurities that strengthen the metal by providing a brittle crystalline structure. Hard, but brittle.

    Steel is a carbonized iron alloy. This metal has been used for more than 3000 years, originally unknowingly. It is hard, springy, and holds an edge very well. It is also LIGHT compared to the other primary metal used for battle implements Bronze. Bronze is about 540 pounds per cubic foot while Steel is only about 490 pound per cubic foot (that is a 10% reduction in weight by volume). When worked properly it is also MUCH stronger than bronze. A strike that would bend bronze would merely cause steel to flex and return to its original shape. Steel was the material used to produce the gladius when it was the weapon of choice in Rome from the 4th century to the 3rd century BC. They utilized two methods for steel weapon manufacturing. Welded steel and hammer forged steel. Welded steel weapons were lower quality because they were not a single piece of uniform carbon steel causing weak points. Strips of steel were heated and them hammered together with the central portion of the blade being higher carbon than the edges. Hammer forged steel was made from a single ingot or "bloom" of carbon steel and heated to about 1200 degrees and hammered into shape before being sharpened and polished.

    So bronze armor and weapons should be HEAVIER by about 15-20%. The protection should be exactly the same as steel(iron or boison really I don't even know what boison is supposed to be but by the description it sounds like it is supposed to be steel but is some how less hard than iron? I have no idea what the designers were thinking) because they would use MORE bronze to perform the same function and provide the same protection that they could get with LESS steel.

    So whatever the equivalent of steel is supposed to be should be lighter by about 15-20% over bronze, not heavier. Just because it provides better protection doesn't mean it has to be heavier. It is already SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive to get boison over iron over bronze over tin. We shouldn't ALSO have to pay in massive weight increases.
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  • #2
    this is also a world with a stationary planet, a roving god sun, and magic.. as well as things like retalq. Don't worry so much about real life, and just focus on what actually is in game, boison isn't real, neither is retalq, bronze and iron are about the realist thing in this gameworld.

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    • #3
      Armor and weapon materials, weights, etc. seem to be better than I can remember them being in the past. For instance, there's about two pounds worth of weight jump between metal types on identical helmets (I used faceplates with neck protection to test this). You can't get certain pieces of armor in better than bronze because it would create a game balance issue. You have to balance armor type, material and layering against total weight. Changes made to speed seemed to create a few wonky situations with 200 points in the stat and certain weapons, but the balance there doesn't seem to be terrible.

      One can make a realism argument about things like mail armor against piercing vs mail armor against bashing. It really complicates the whole system and would create situations where balance could be tilted too far in one direction or the other. You're looking at one of the few systems that seems to be really decent now, and any changes would likely make it worse instead of better. Game balance > realism.

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      • #4
        Well the real point is that there was no appreciable difference between bronze armor and steel armor as far as protection. The difference was that you could wear MORE armor in steel because it weighed substantially less. There is only so much force a human can put behind a spear thrust and both bronze armor and steel armor were designed to stop this kind of attack and were able to in most situations. The difference was that steel was about 20% lighter because it is less dense, more resistant to bending and damage, and harder so you could actually use less material to accomplish the same feat. So the protection level should be the same between a bronze muscle cuirass and a steel muscle cuirass but the weight would be about 20% less with steel. Same with helmets. Same with weapons, though less so with tipped weapons as they use substantially less metal than full blades. So it wouldn't be difficult to balance the armor as they would be the same regarding protection and only be lighter. I'd have them cost more because of the weight advantage of course.
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        • #5
          I'm failing to see how this would improve anything. As it stands, TEC is weighted heavily on the side of defense. Making armor even more effective would only worsen this. The whole argument of "well make it cost a fortune. It will pull money" is null and void as well. Improved armor would provide the most benefit to low tier characters. The people who would have it would be the very ones who are already reaping the benefits of a system that is by design overly defensive. Even current choices are a little on the excessive side when combined properly. Cutting a 100 pound load out to 89 pounds would only expand upon this problem.

          Your math is a bit wonky too. The density of low carbon steel is .284 lb/in^3. The density of commercial bronze is .318 lb/in^3. This would work out to a difference of around 38 cubic inches if you were carrying 100 pounds of both, or roughly half of your 20% if that's easier. Links are attached if you'd like to look at them. There are also structural differences in the alloys that would make the quality of armor significantly different, but that's wading down a rabbit hole that's far too deep for TEC mechanics.

          http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...08db22a53e2421

          http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...344c5e923a050b

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          • #6
            And your understanding of how using less material to get the same protection seems to be rather poor. Yes, steel is only 10% lighter by volume of bronze, but you would use less steel to get the same protection as you would with bronze. This is only an estimate of 10% less material required to complete the same task so I'm estimating about 20% less weight (estimating only).
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            • #7
              Originally posted by z_isom86 View Post
              And your understanding of how using less material to get the same protection seems to be rather poor. Yes, steel is only 10% lighter by volume of bronze, but you would use less steel to get the same protection as you would with bronze. This is only an estimate of 10% less material required to complete the same task so I'm estimating about 20% less weight (estimating only).
              Or maybe if you had read the last sentence of my post you'd have seen that I did address the material property differences. That's what "structural differences" means, making things thicker or thinner based on the material you're using. It's not a conversation worth having in this thread though, as I also expressed. Hell, we have a mystery metal. Let's make boison studded retalq stuff so you don't actually have to put in the time to train defense or upgrade strength. That's what this topic is really about anyway. Got killed by an NPC somewhere, so let's beg for super armor. Who cares about game balance? Let's just make those with high strength and an actual defense even harder to defeat. Good plan!

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