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  • #46
    I fundamentally disagree with you on this subject, which is fine. One thing I think is sad is what you just requoted from Kered. I get the fact that I am a consumer of a product and this is what it is. While this conversation may or may not affect this current topic one could hope that the GM's will take it into account in the future.

    I don't know how many GM's there are and the level of knowledge they have in a particular topic area but some of these players can go seriously deep on a topic, others are full of bullshit. Floating out trial balloons of some changes they are thinking about implementing to the player base would be a great way to crowdsource some interesting solutions before it is released in game.

    I understand they want to stand behind their work as well they should. Giving the player base some say, no matter how small can only be good for the game and the community. And then you would know your solution while it might not have changed is a well considered one.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Ariden View Post
      I understand they want to stand behind their work as well they should. Giving the player base some say, no matter how small can only be good for the game and the community. And then you would know your solution while it might not have changed is a well considered one.
      I chatted it up with Tale last night and this was brought up. He basically said he wouldn't really put it up for debate with the playerbase, as far as what he's considering releasing. He believes it would set him up for failure, which makes sense to me.

      As far as this thread goes, it's been all over. Stick to the topic at hand, which is not allowing a game changing, over-night 'fix' to the chargen. A fix that old characters, with time, money, role-play, and emotional investments aren't allowed to play with. As Kered has said numerous times, it's as if the GM's are forcing old characters to go on the chop. It's not fair to us, as players of old characters, to be told we can't enjoy a game changing 'fix' to the chargen.

      The fact that compensation ideas where adding a trait for 3-5 thousand RP's should speak loud and clear here. If I had to, I guess I would spend the 5k to add one, but, is that fair? I could've just not invested all of my time, money and emotions in to my character for the last decade, but I enjoy playing him. Is that my fault? My fault for keeping my character alive, out of pvp conflict, and paying for tens of thousands of RP's?

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      • #48
        It honestly feels like they're trying to do a soft pwipe by upping the average char stats and generally messing with stats to the point that everyone at some points feels the need to @chop so they can create a VC10 that's far better within a few months.

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        • #49
          nobody's telling you to stop complaining about it, I was just quoting him, because it's true. When the people who make the game say this is how it is, period... all that's left is bug reports to fix errors, which, has nothing to do with letting old characters redo traits.

          This also isn't a democracy, the staff are selected to modify and monitor the game, for free, except sceadu, who's paid, and the changes they make are the changes you gotta deal with, if the changes break the game, report the bugs, and they'll fix what's broken (you hope). There's a big difference between fixing what's broken, and changing their minds on not letting you change your current character for a character generator change.

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          • #50
            This char-gen change 100% absolutely sets a new standard for "max."

            Players with characters that feel "gimped" by this change are thus faced with a crappy choice: continue training a character that is guaranteed to never pass a glass ceiling, or abandon current RP and start over.

            Given the enormous amount of investment in both mechanics AND in RP, this feels like a cruel choice.

            An option to "reroll traits" within one's nationality would address this - the cost could be prohibitively high, but not impossible to achieve. This gives those oldbies something to strive for (and have to pay out the nose for.) (Stats could remain unaffected - or, stats could be completely refunded to re-destribute.)

            Make it cost 10k. Make it cost 15k. Whatever. It just needs to exist, so that oldbies can escape that choice.

            Please make this a thing. What's wrong with making re-rolling traits an attainable but extremely expensive option?

            PS: We absolutely wanna love revamps to the chargen - people including myself think that chargen changes are great for moving forward. We just want GMs to also listen to our concerns.

            PPS: The chargen changes still make a few builds the go-to for combat.

            -----

            Top-enders aren't the only one being affected by this change. Everyone is. Everyone who ever invested in a character rolled for max-builds up till now are penalized, permanently, unless you start over this week. Everyone has the choice of continuing a permanently gimped character, or starting over. I find this horrible. Give people the option to respec, even if it's expensive.

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            • #51
              Let's erase stats altogether. Let ranks rule the day. IG time invested should dictate IG power. Also, get rid of the weekly SP cap. Hur.
              [color=dark yellow]Verbal Crushings[/color]
                     &nbsp ;[color=dark yellow]Now Serving #[/color][color=royal blue]7[/color]


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              • #52
                I've wanted to ask GM's if when my character hit a certain age, his combat stats drop a little, while mentals go up a little.

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                • #53
                  The last few posts before Elowynn's post's just need to be deleted. Who gives a flying shit about someone who has been banned dozens of times. Your opinion to this game does not matter anymore. I'm sorry bru. I'm tired of it. We're all tired of it. Go play WoW of some shit.


                  Also, a previous post brought up an idea that would never be implemented. Who cares about an idea that will NEVER be implemented. Lets move on and actually discuss the topic.

                  Oldbie characters will always and forever be gimped. And that's kinda messed up to the fullest capacity without cussing and getting this post deleted. It's messed up.. I spoke with a GM about if, and I get his reasoning, but gosh darnit, it's still really really not fair.

                  Koppe1.0 (current character that can be achieved in 2-3 years of minimal effort) vs Koppe2.0 (new character with the same amount of SP, but much less time investment) - Who do you think would win? The answer is the one with the additional positive trait. Adrenaline Rush. Iron Will. Athletic. Mountain Lungs. These are GAME FRIGGIN CHANGERS. How are you guys not understanding this. HOW.

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                  • #54
                    I've cleared out all the trolling, inflammatory, insulting, and baiting posts that have accumulated in this thread. I also had to dole out infractions for clear rules violations. I've also removed my own responses, as they only incited people to new heights of the 'using feelings as my facts' strategy of posting. Nothing I say will 'make it better' for those who feel slighted by the change, and are taking it personally. I don't have to authority to do any sort of 'reimbursement' that the vocal minority are currently clamoring for, so I've removed myself from the argument. Clearly something I should have done immediately when I realized this was no longer a discussion, but an argument. During actual discussions, people listen to the person they're conversing with instead of waiting their turn to yell or insult.

                    Feel free to continue discussing this if you like, but if I have to remove more vitriol, I will simply lock the thread entirely and you can have your argument out on a private Discord where I'm not obliged to keep the peace.

                    I really do not like having to mod the forums. I ask that you all please not to force me to do it again.
                    Last edited by Tale; 02-09-2019, 12:37 AM.
                    Game Master Tale
                    Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Creativity is putting tomatoes in a fruit salad to make mango salsa. Philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is actually a smoothie. Common Sense is knowing that no, ketchup is not a smoothie.

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                    • #55
                      I dont know how you still have a role in this game.
                      .

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                      • #56
                        People stopped being vocal because they stopped getting listened to, there is already data in the first couple pages stating the difference. I get you have no actual authority Tale, and I dont hold it against you this change, I think for new people it's great, again "I claim" that the view is to drive off old toons for new ones, and that makes no sense to me. Regardless, the decision was made and we have zero input or say in the matter, and have to always just "deal with it" and move on.
                        This was not sarcasm or ment to be insulting, I have no coffee.
                        "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                        • #57
                          The above is the concern. The players don't have a say in game-changing stuff like this. It's forced, no options for retro-fitting old chars. I don't think anyone is disputing the value add by updating the generator and trying to rebalance it as a standalone thing. The problem is it isn't standalone, it greatly affects the current meta for all the people that just gone done creating VC10's ever since the first culling.

                          Our concerns about this are simply being ignored; there was no input taken before, and our complaints after are being responded with "well that's how it is now, so deal with it". You -must- understand the frustration here when people are spending a lot of money and many years of effort and then have their concerns completely and wholeheartedly ignored.

                          To make the assertion that there is no retro-balancing option here is what I believe is the short-sightedness. Consider when traits were first introduced. Every character was given a 1 time chance to choose traits, because they KNEW people would have this type of concern. Problem solved. I know in it's current form, it's more difficult than that because not every char is affected the same way; but to me it sounds like we should be able to have a menu provided that allows us to -add- traits only. No removing or changing current traits we already chose, just that if we have an extra trait slot open now, that we be allowed to use it (and add a negative if we need to balance the cost).

                          In short, I would like to suggest the GM's reconsider options for retroactive balancing, by taking in suggestions from the players, and evaluating the implementation requirements to determine what options may be valid, and over what time period.

                          Even if this takes 6 months as a side project to complete, and the result is a complete agreement by the GM's that none of the options provided would be satisfactory, I think the transparency of the process and including player involvement would go a long way to quell concerns and build community between the players and GM's.

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                          • #58
                            Thank you Ilk, yours is a lot more ellagant than how I was writing but spot on how I wanted to present it
                            "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Ilkilyn View Post
                              The above is the concern. The players don't have a say in game-changing stuff like this. It's forced, no options for retro-fitting old chars. I don't think anyone is disputing the value add by updating the generator and trying to rebalance it as a standalone thing. The problem is it isn't standalone, it greatly affects the current meta for all the people that just gone done creating VC10's ever since the first culling.

                              Our concerns about this are simply being ignored; there was no input taken before, and our complaints after are being responded with "well that's how it is now, so deal with it". You -must- understand the frustration here when people are spending a lot of money and many years of effort and then have their concerns completely and wholeheartedly ignored.

                              To make the assertion that there is no retro-balancing option here is what I believe is the short-sightedness. Consider when traits were first introduced. Every character was given a 1 time chance to choose traits, because they KNEW people would have this type of concern. Problem solved. I know in it's current form, it's more difficult than that because not every char is affected the same way; but to me it sounds like we should be able to have a menu provided that allows us to -add- traits only. No removing or changing current traits we already chose, just that if we have an extra trait slot open now, that we be allowed to use it (and add a negative if we need to balance the cost).

                              In short, I would like to suggest the GM's reconsider options for retroactive balancing, by taking in suggestions from the players, and evaluating the implementation requirements to determine what options may be valid, and over what time period.

                              Even if this takes 6 months as a side project to complete, and the result is a complete agreement by the GM's that none of the options provided would be satisfactory, I think the transparency of the process and including player involvement would go a long way to quell concerns and build community between the players and GM's.
                              Seconded. Let's actually do something to balance combat characters and not continue to swing the balance of power to one side, for a select number and screwing the rest of the player base.

                              Next thing you know, there will be an entire army of Cineran blade mastery fang stavers just.... I can't even think about it.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I completely agree with Ilklyn, Kered, Ariden, Syden, Twen, VB, and many others who have posted here - these changes should not be made unilaterally without player input. These -very- gamechanging combat changes need combat-minded folks' input prior to implementation. Traits are NOT a simple fix - and the current system is not balanced either.

                                I think there is a vast amount of lost perspective. It feels like GMs no longer remember what it's like to be down in the grind. It is extremely common to hear that players have invested (yes, invested) 5-10 years, hundreds of storypoints, and 30-40k role points to try to reach their goals.

                                Some people have two characters like that. Some people four. Some people have extremely valuable VC10 packages they just rolled and wasted on now worthless attempts at top enders.

                                For that goalpost to suddenly move and make worthless our prior investments is, frankly, really thoughtless, Tale. This game is already on the ludicrously high tier of time investments.

                                Are mechanics the end-all-be-all of this game? No. But for a lot of us, striving to be "the best" IS integral to RP. When our old, and frankly, precious and deeply valuable (time and effort wise) characters suddenly can NEVER reach that goal, to say it "takes the wind out of the sails," is an extreme understatement.

                                This change -needs- to come with a retroactively applying option. Give certain nationalities an extra trait slot. Or let folks pay 10k rps to respec traits within their nationality, leaving stats as they are.

                                Alternatively, this trait system needs rolled back. It needs a lot more balancing, and a lot more consideration as to the effect on "old" characters.

                                ----

                                As a PS, I would like to ask, Tale, and you don't need to answer any of these publicly. Have you had a desire to roll a min-maxed character? Have you tried it, with the old chargen, or the new one? Do you have thoughts as to what the "best" minmax build was before, or is now? There are players who spend enormous amounts of effort making those calculations, and then hunker down and prepare to spend 5-10 years of basic/premium subscriptions to reach the maximum potential. If the rug was pulled out from under you midway, wouldn't you be ... miffed?

                                ----

                                Additionally, Tale, if you have spent time with the new chargen contemplating new "max" builds, do you see how there are clearly favored builds that everyone's going to gravitate towards? Does that really address the "old" problem of having limited choices?

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