Character Generator Update

[Elowynn]

I've spent the better part of a week now testing rolls with some combat-minded folks. The choice for "best" min-max build comes out to two, maybe three nationalities. This isn't balanced. Balancing combat traits isn't a simple fix, and needs far more changes than "auto trait is now a fourth trait," and tweaks to the numbers of nationalities/adjectives to stats.

And these changes can't be made without a very in depth discussion.

While I highly appreciate Tale and Scolve's whirlwind of implementations lately, let's please not lose quality to quantity.

[Elowynn]

Some trait revamp considerations. These are things that should have been understood and addressed first before "balancing" should be touched.

http://eternal-city.wikidot.com/traits

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Athletic, Mountain Lungs, Frail Lungs, Intense Nightmares, Light Sleeper, all affect fatigue regen, but do not seem calibrated to each other correctly.

mountain lungs:
"increases fatigue recovery rate."
+4 trait.
athletic:
"reduced fatigue drain."
+3 trait.
increased metabolism:
"increased HP/fatigue recovery when full. No recovery when hungry."
+0 trait.
base (no traits):
light sleeper:
"reduced fatigue recovery benefits for sitting or laying down."
+0 trait
frail lungs:
"reduced fatigue recovery and increased fatigue drain."
-3 trait
intense nightmares:
"reduced fatigue recovery when asleep."
-3 trait

Laying in a non-resting area with a tester character with 100 HP:
mountain lungs (not yet tested)
athletic: ~49m [raises fatigue cap rather than rais]
increased metabolism: ~36m
base (no traits): ~44m
light sleeper: 81m
frail lungs: ~60m

Light sleeper, as a +-0 trait, should not have a slower regen time than frail lungs.

Mountain lungs seems effectively the same or worse than Athletic, but costs 1 point more. Needs looked into and possible adjustment.

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Pack rat needs to be adjusted from a +2 to +1 cost.

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Weather sense needs to be adjusted from a +2 to +1 cost.

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Lucky should be removed from traits. Luck no longer functions the way it used to. I reported that Luck! did not apply to my attempts to hide in the forest - Sceadu replied that use of luck! should only affect a combat roll, and he then changed the description of luck. However, Sceadu's explanation seems incorrect as I seem to recall Luck! worked on locksmithing. Needs looked into. Trait worthless now.

Alternatively, Lucky trait could give a 1-5 bonus in one out of every 30 (or 50, or 100) rolls.

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Squeamish (currently -1) should be a -2 trait, or even -3 trait.

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Natural Builder should be renamed Steadfast Builder, and also give an approximately +10 bonus to Endurance, raising the cap, to make Aestivans an desirable combat roll, on par with Unpredictable or Blade Mastery.

Additionally, Hoplite Stance should include Wall Shields, not just Oval Shields, in the stance mechanic.

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Iridinian Citizenship should be tweaked as a trait, nwo that citizenship is relatively affordable in the VCC lounge. Call it "Fidelis" or "Long Live the Republic" or something, and give it approximately +10 to willpower over the cap.

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What the eff does Metal Affinity do?

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These are just a few things that should have been addressed in a trait haulover. The current tweak to allow a fourth trait does not address existing oddities/imbalances, or the imbalances in national rolls. Tale, if your goal was truly to make nationalities more balanced, then please understand your tweak didn't actually do that.

Tale, I truly think your tweak needs to be rolled back. Address the above first. And give people a 10k RPS spend option to reroll traits within their nationality.

[TEC_Ghuan]

Lucky should be removed from traits. Luck no longer functions the way it used to. I reported that Luck! did not apply to my attempts to hide in the forest - Sceadu replied that use of luck! should only affect a combat roll, and he then changed the description of luck. However, Sceadu's explanation seems incorrect as I seem to recall Luck! worked on locksmithing. Needs looked into. Trait worthless now.

Alternatively, Lucky trait could give a 1-5 bonus in one out of every 30 (or 50, or 100) rolls.

luck! used to give a +100 bonus to your next action. It applied to both combat and non-combat actions. It was very useful for when you were stuck in quicksand to help you get out of it, too. I'm fairly sure it was removed after some folks with too many RPs used it to gain an advantage when PKing people.

But really, the whole trait system is a mess and should be updated. There are only a few worthwhile combinations.

[VBaehr]

Well laid out.

Now we wait for the like.. 5 trolly players that say "No one deserves to be max min, even if you take 5 years. My brand new VC should be able to compete NOW, and be better because *equality of outcome*

[Elowynn]

While we're discussing the char-gen, the cap on 145 to stats in the non-VC generator should be removed. This is weird and imbalancing. I rolled what I expected to be 160-170 and came out with 120 or so. For overage to "roll over" is weird, unexpected, and has no good explanation for why this mechanic is in place. All it does is hurt rollers who don't know better.

[Ariden]

No I think the one's that come down against this aren't ones that have VC's and think they should be the best. I think the ones that are the most vocal do not have a subscription and therefore don't have the RP's to be able to pump into their characters to make them better. It's simply I don't wanna pay but I want to be just as good as people that have put in a real monetary investment to perfect their characters.

And completely agree with that last statement as well. That effectively limits a free account to having forever a gimped character. By removing that cap you allow them to get a taste of what a good stat can do for you. Might inspire them to sub.

[Syden]

Well laid out, Elowynn.

It's like we are all working at a shop together and have been for 5 years then all of a sudden the manager says, "Starting from today all new employees will be given a $5 an hour pay increase AND an extra week of annual leave. Sorry we will not be adjusting any existing employees pay. Oh, the new employees also get a free iPhone XS Max."

[jkidd]

The "vocal minority" sure seems to have a lot of people.

[Elowynn]

Bump. 1235565134

[Dragonus]

Nicely put, Elowynn.

It would be nice to hear a response or even just an idea of the general approach to balancing that was taken when implementing these changes, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Let's be honest, the GMs do not -owe- us anything. On one hand, no other games I play (Clash Royale, Kingdom Hearts, etc.) do I expect those in charge of the game to listen to my individual input or feedback. So that does kind of make sense on the overall response. But those games would kind of keep themselves in check where if (as an example) 1/10 of their community were to complain, they'd lose so much revenue and playerbase that they would likely "be forced" to take player concerns more seriously.

My impression (and I mean this in the nicest way) is that TEC staff does not seem to be overly concerned with player retention. If so, why encourage the "just kill off your long-invested character and re-roll another" approach? That's one step in the direction of encouraging you to stop playing altogether. An overall strategy of player retention would likely -encourage- you to keep playing your current character AND invest in a new one. Almost as if for a promo idea they were to have one for "Spend 1K RPs on attribute increases for character A and get 5 free increases on character B" or something like that. More incentive to build more stories, while making it "easier" on people who do like to cycle through characters. I get that this -may- have been the idea behind VC packages, but asking anyone start from ground 0 again without any other ties to keep them around is a tough sell.

TEC also seems to be a weird game in the sense that many criticise the "min-maxers", but the game itself makes so many things mechanics-related in the overall gameworld. If it's only RP that matters, why not code it more like Marrach where everything is just emotes and skill levels don't really matter? Why bake stats into practically everything? Why spend so much time on hunting grounds, skillsets etc,? Clearly this game is not ONLY about the RP, there's a balance somewhere.

And lastly, (and I feel like I'm kinda rambling on a little, but oh well) why hide so much about mechanics? Is there really a benefit to making players -have- to do all the testing themselves? Any discouraging it (RIP beta room)? Insecurity in design or aversion to public discussion? In any other game that I can think of, if a trait said "Significantly increases Dex" it would probably add a "(+18)" or something, just to be completely transparent because in a well-balanced system, there's no fear/harm in showing people the numbers as to why you feel it's balanced. Even if it's not anywhere IG, when new things are announced in general (e.g. There's this new trainer IG, he will teach you as high as rank X.). So that culture makes me feel like none of the balances/tweaks IG will ever really be discussed with the more knowledgeable playerbase as a whole. [/Ramble]


As for what I actually wanted to answer.

What the eff does Metal Affinity do?

For years it did absolutely nothing except take up an extra trait spot. As someone more invested in RP and the character I had already rolled in the old system before traits were a thing, I decided to suck it up and keep my Windwardian Axer. MA was rumoured to be part of a Blacksmithing skill, which was never released. Years later it was coded into the mechanics of forging lockpicks.

Most recently, now you can tell the types of metal an object is made of on inspection. So if I...

inspect retalq axe

Now you can see...

It appears to be extremely sharp.
It looks to be of good quality.
It would appear to be in perfect condition.
It is made from retalq.

Yaaaaaay.

[Ellingson]

so let me get this straight... you are all complaining cause you are not getting a retro for your old characters on this new change? Most of you know I had a character die and was given a VC6 and not but a day later they announced the new VC packages, that there was no retros given for that too and it was no big thing, I felt burned and I pissed and moaned and went on and on about it. You people as a community told me I needed to just get over it or kill off the Vet I had already worked hard on getting established. So now that something was changed and you did not get your retro we are going to act like it is the end of the world as we know it. My advice is, if you want to take advantage of the new content you should; A) kill off a character to roll a new VC. B) stop complaining and get over it. C) roll a new character all together. or D) any combination of the choices given. If I had things my way there would be a server wipe and we all would have to start over, it really is the only way we are going to "balance" anything for a game this old.

[VBaehr]

so let me get this straight... you are all complaining cause you are not getting a retro for your old characters on this new change? Most of you know I had a character die and was given a VC6 and not but a day later they announced the new VC packages, that there was no retros given for that too and it was no big thing, I felt burned and I pissed and moaned and went on and on about it. You people as a community told me I needed to just get over it or kill off the Vet I had already worked hard on getting established. So now that something was changed and you did not get your retro we are going to act like it is the end of the world as we know it. My advice is, if you want to take advantage of the new content you should; A) kill off a character to roll a new VC. B) stop complaining and get over it. C) roll a new character all together. or D) any combination of the choices given. If I had things my way there would be a server wipe and we all would have to start over, it really is the only way we are going to "balance" anything for a game this old.

.... Literally apples and oranges.

Like in every possible way.

You were screwed out of temporary benefit that doesn't have lasting impact. You lost maybe 5k gsp, 40t, and some stat bonus. Did Kaylarie even qualify for a VC10? I doubt it.

The trait changes are permanent, unobtainable benefits that are not available to retro characters. Not shiny new upgrades to kick start a new character.

I don't want to come off mean, but do even a split second of critical thinking and comparison before posting in a serious discussion.

[Ilkilyn]

VBaehr is correct in that your particular issue is a temporary thing that can be overcome; we are concerned with issues that can not be overcome, no matter what. A cineran made now will have a significant benefit over a cineran made before this change due to the ability to add an additional trait, as blade mastery no longer fills up that gap. Nimble feet for instance would give the new char an agility bonus and speed bonus that the other char could NEVER work past, not through IG means nor Money for RP's. Ever.

I had my first main screwed over by the initial change of traits affecting stat maxes, as his dex gimp was so significant compared to the dex bonus from new chars, that his 6k ranks lost to a char with 1k-1.5k ranks in a one on one match. No matter how much money or time I might spend, I would -never- be able to beat that character in a one on one match. In fact as his ranks are still getting better bonuses per ranks, that fight will get harder and harder for me. I chopped this char to then aim for the new meta and made a VC 10.

With the new system, my new VC10 will have the same issue with any char made now, as they'll have a higher max stat, and that stat effect is SIGNIFICANT, and can never be overcome.

The worst is for Sosteran's, as they have two National bonuses, meaning they're 2 traits down from what new chars will get.

[TEC_Ghuan]

The worst is for Sosteran's, as they have two National bonuses, meaning they're 2 traits down from what new chars will get.

They only have one (Anonymity). The other is a Free Trait.

[TsunamiJack]

I think this thread shows that the changes have struck a chord with the player base. In recent years, it seems like the attitude taken towards players is you'll take what you're given and if you speak up, we'll ban you from the forums (or in some cases, carry grudges over into the game that impact your character). This community doesn't like the changes and you'd think you'd want to make people LIKE changes that make a monumental impact going forward. Not liking a change isn't an affront to those that spent hours and hours working on it. We appreciate that there are GMs so dedicated to expanding the game. We want a voice and want to know that our opinions are at least considered. Simple as that.

Also, I too don't understand the desire to hide mechanics from the players. Take any game that has graphics where you generate a character. You see the pros and cons of your choices clearly. I say share the adjectives list and let us create the monster that we want. It's not like knowing the adjectives somehow predicted every single roll. People spend weeks rerolling to get what they want so there is still some "mystery" in the roll. Open up, TEC. Time to see what you're made of.