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  • #16
    Hello fellow TEC connoisseurs!

    I usually don't weigh in on these kinds of topics any more, but I really like the direction you all are heading. The problems described here are ancient and reliably periodic; enough for me to think of them as a core feature of the game - a fun challenge to overcome. Those of you who are close to me know that I've lost years and tens of thousands of RPs on chars and ideas that were subsequently power-nerfed into the dirt, and I still manage to do really well. That being said, my point isn't to say "Just deal with it" or "This game is for masochists like me... Kinky." I'm trying to let you all know that I'm seeing what you're seeing, and I applaud this new instance of GM-player cooperation.

    However, instead of debating what color of band-aid the GMs should slap on this one, I would like to draw attention to this never-ending cycle as it continues:

    Players are driven to discover something that gives them an edge or reveals why they suck --> Players invest resources to take advantage or compensate --> GMs knowingly/unknowingly/publicly/privately change something that throws everything out of whack --> Player's plans/hopes/dreams are crushed --> Players find a way to cope, start over, or quit --> REPEAT

    This process is vastly accelerated these days for a variety of reasons. *cough*DISCORD*cough*

    ***

    With regards to the main topic of this thread, I could guess that if one of the GMs did some testing and spread the word among the others that these changes would allow certain builds to have a +57 to hit compared to formerly "maxed out" characters, some more thought might have gone into the process before implementation. What really happened though, I can only refer to my wild imagination:

    What probably happened: We know things could be better and this fix looks OK, let's do it.

    What probably didn't happen: Let's make a forum post saying that now is the time to allow fresh chars to have an unprecedented combat advantage to solidify our intent to use "power creep" to encourage @chop and the use of vetchars to help bring new player-driven storylines, and to move forward with our goal of expanding on high-level PVE. After we get player feedback and make the final adjustments, let's do it.

    ***

    Regardless of what changes come, this cycle must end if we're to keep this game alive for another two decades.

    CYCLE-BREAKING SOLUTION:

    1. GMs should reach out to the playerbase more often for ideas/opinions/knowledge and see how it measures up to what's known/popular in GM land (this is exactly what Siddhe is doing. HYPER KUDOS).

    2. Recruit more GMs (or beta test-ish equivalent) that have an exceptional understanding of chars/builds/combat mechanics.

    3. Thoroughly playtest changes LONG BEFORE they're implemented.

    4. Publicize the staff's intent and goals (of course keeping those delicious numbers close-hold) so that the players aren't so blind-sided when the change is ready to come.

    ***

    I'm trying (really) to keep from killing you all with TLDR, but simply put it doesn't matter exactly WHAT the GMs do to address these issues, it's THAT they have the interest and the manpower to maximize player's enjoyment of the game, and I truly believe the current staff aren't laughing in their offices about screwing people over. I trust that they will explore new ideas, crunch the numbers, determine a new change's impact long-term, and prudently select courses of action that the playerbase can understand and support.

    P.S... I believe that the chargen should be updated with new, more well-balanced traits, but If we only have time for a quick band-aid, just delete Steady Hands (dex is too good to have TWO traits that stack to buff it) and let chars that have it pick another trait to replace it.

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    • #17
      Everyone's feedback is greatly appreciated. There are some thoughtfully-written posts. I would like to encourage anyone else that has yet to provide their constructive suggestions to please share.

      Comment


      • #18
        I actually disagree with the option to reroll your old character. You know how many times I started over and chopped/killed an old character because I was told there would never be a retroactive change like that? Would make me vomit to know I could still be playing Chuvros.

        Comment


        • #19
          I've updated data on Mountain Lungs:

          Athletic, Mountain Lungs, Frail Lungs, Intense Nightmares, Light Sleeper, all affect fatigue regen, but do not seem calibrated to each other correctly.

          mountain lungs:
          "increases fatigue recovery rate."
          +4 trait.
          athletic:
          "reduced fatigue drain."
          +3 trait.
          increased metabolism:
          "increased HP/fatigue recovery when full. No recovery when hungry."
          +0 trait.
          base (no traits):
          light sleeper:
          "reduced fatigue recovery benefits for sitting or laying down."
          +0 trait
          frail lungs:
          "reduced fatigue recovery and increased fatigue drain."
          -3 trait
          intense nightmares:
          "reduced fatigue recovery when asleep."
          -3 trait

          Laying in a non-resting area with a tester character with 100 HP:
          mountain lungs: ~ 38m
          athletic: ~49m [raises fatigue cap rather than raising recovery time?]
          increased metabolism: ~36m
          base (no traits): ~44m
          light sleeper: 81m
          frail lungs: ~60m

          Light sleeper, as a +-0 trait, should not have a slower regen time than frail lungs.

          Mountain lungs seems effectively the same or worse than Athletic, but costs 1 point more. Needs looked into and possible adjustment.
          Anecdotally, Mountain Lungs has always seemed effectively worse than Athletic, while costing one point more. From testing just now, the "increased fatigue recovery rate" of Mountain Lungs is effectively about the same as that of Increased Metabolism, but ML costs +4, while Metabolism is a zero trait packed with HP recovery (with the requirement of carrying around food all the time.) It seems Mountain Lungs' fatigue recovery rate should be boosted, to make it truly worth +1 more than Athletic.

          ----
          • There need to be multiple "max" trait build options, and multiple desirable National builds.
            • I did my best to write some suggestions for new National bonuses that would be appealing to both coms and noncoms. I was hoping folks would contribute with more ideas here, as they could use fleshing out.
              I think the addition of the "Specialist" trait (suggested in previous thread, reducing SP cost by 25% for one non com skill) for non-coms would 1) ease the speed of making non-com characters viable, 2) and at the same time, stave off the lure of making such a character a jack of all trades.
          • Re-spec should be an option, but not a forced change. Should people prefer their old builds, that should be available to them.
            • I imagine what really gets under people's skin is when their old investments are "nerfed," AND new changes are available that can't be implemented to themselves (which disregards years of character investment.) Sometimes a little nerfing is necessary, but it really eases the pain of change to make change voluntary - lure people with new shiny options that are on par or superior to their old builds. Folks should be given the choice of: do I like my old spec just the way it is, or do I want to benefit from new Nationals (and possible free fourth slot)?
          • Traits need to be revamped, but it is always better to add new, desirable options, than to nerf old, existing, relied on options.
            • ​​​​​​​Currently, Dex is the favored build, with Steady Hands stacking on Finesse. I actually think this should stay. Personally, I consider Strength an underappreciated stat and build at the moment. (Folks are way too focused on Dex, forgetting that PVE sees 5s on most swings already. Only strength will bump your damage at that point. I personally build Ox's Grace characters.) I think both Steady Hands and Finesse traits should stay as they are, but possibly cost more, allowing old builds to keep the benefits as they were, yet requiring more balancing from new respecced builds.
              In addition, I think strength traits are lacking from the generator:
              • Brawn of a Lion: Significant bonus to strength. +3 (on par with Steady Hands.)
          • A few more trait suggestions, which could be competitive to Steady Hands, Athletic, Adrenaline Rush, etc:
            • Hunter of Men: A bonus to hit against human opponents. +3.
            • Hunter of Beasts: A bonus to hit against animal opponents. +3.
            • Rise with the Sun: Increased perception and general bonus during day hours. Reduced perception and general penalty during night hours. Mutually exclusive with 'Night Owl," and cannot be combined with "Night Vision." Neutral trait. (A fun option for Erealites, I think.)
          Last edited by Elowynn; 03-15-2019, 06:34 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
            Traits need to be revamped, but it is always better to add new, desirable options, than to nerf old, existing, relied on options.

            I wouldn't mind seeing a couple immediate changes, but I think that this approach ignores the massive flaws in the system and ignores a great many of the problems that a lot of players have with traits. Adding more junk on top of junk just means that now we have more to figure out how to balance. I like all of your suggestions, but I think that prematurely just adding stuff just shifts the problem to the next time.

            There's also then the issue of offering a trait re-roll and just accepting that the system is horribly flawed but has some new options within the flaws.

            Comment


            • #21
              Regarding traits and balancing national bonuses, what if the bonuses themselves were toned down, but each nationality received two bonuses: 1 for combat and one for non-com? We may actually see some crafters from Cinera, or a swordsman from Remath.
              Don't be fooled, Miri is a vegan.

              Sicaslash: Parsnips are for girls.

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              • #22
                I appreciate that the GM's have taken more seriously the concerns of the playerbase, I just wish it didn't take several of us pulling our cards to do that. As long as this effort is earnestly pursued, I'll be returning to the game and hopefully resubbing.

                As for suggestions, mine is as mentioned in the other thread:

                1) Allow a one-time option for characters made before the change to add any number of new traits and remove only 1 negative or neutral trait. This is a minor enough change that can be seen as a character development over time as compared to a completely different character (getting over superstitions, etc). the removal option is there mainly because someone might have chosen a -1 point trait, but would be happy to take a -3 in exchange for a new +2 trait. As always, total score should be 0 or lower and at most 3 pos and neg traits.

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                • #23
                  Thank you for reaching out to us GM's and thank you as always to Siddhe who is always outstanding in any interaction I have with them.

                  I wanted to point out a few things that will re-iterate what others have said to add my voice to the discourse more than anything.

                  I will focus on mountain lungs more than others as that's the trait I have the most experience with. I think it just does not work as intended. It is a negligible increase when resting and it doesn't seem to impact any gain when not resting/laying. It seems to be negated when resting in an inn room. I feel like ML (like Elowynn) should equal athletic but maybe in a different way. If resting is halved or even more; or if the gain is the same standing as laying it would perhaps even out. As it is now, there are characters that have athletic and there are those that do not. And you can tell when you hunt with them those that do and do not.

                  My other qualm is with superstitious fears and how zero/sum it is. I think it can be tweaked to be more dynamic and less F U to the character. That trait literally closes off some of the more awesome parts of the gameworld as it is, which is a shame. Instead of auto stuns maybe make it where the mob is harder the hit. Cadaes and tears drain fatigue like crazy, but you can use them. Something a little more intelligent.

                  I'm for the removal of traits as I feel they are so broken right now I don't know how you'd fix all of them. I do feel like you could add -INTERESTING- free traits to ALL races and it would cause the game to be more dynamic.
                  Originally posted by Arconn9
                  First time I used Sabinus today, since my old main got Cuttongued. So was the IC event for his change; was it him getting hit in the head repeatedly by someone? Because I think he's a retard now.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Since we are reviewing bad decisions, can we bring back think-net for covers and make hoods hide body types?
                    TRproclaim power!

                    Originally posted by Armataan
                    Did I just get told Synodia was a better RPed character than Culexus?
                    Originally posted by Bucaria
                    The player of Synodia should be made a GM, he seems to have no favorites and hates everyone equally.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      any updates on fixing the char gen/traits disaster?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Not an active player but I'm going to weigh in anyway:

                        This change is good, y'all. Understandably, some may find it unfair, perhaps selfishly so, but that is to be expected and is a perfectly natural reaction. However, stuff like this ultimately makes the game more appealing to (re)play. I am most certainly tempted by it, as I'm sure others are too, and if that is not a good thing for TEC, I don't know what is.

                        I know change is almost never comfortable, not everybody is going to be happy with it, yet it's absolutely necessary for this game to continue and thrive into the future. You can either embrace the change with that in mind or protect your current investments and watch the game stagnate.

                        But, hey, that's just my opinion, anyway.








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                        • #27
                          You're right that change is good, if it's done in a thought out way. I don't believe this is the case because of the far-reaching consequences of this tweak and instead of opening up other races it has limited choices in combat characters even further. The problem is that for people that have invested countless hours and significant amount of money to have a character that can't compete is stupid and game wrecking. Give everyone a chance to opt-in to this new system and most people will be ok with the change. And it is not an understatement to say this is game breaking when people will save up to get a Superior over an excellent weapon to get a +1 and this change gives an extra trait, which is much much more than a +1.

                          This thread has pretty much stopped because everyone that has an opinion and is willing to express it already has. If you read the comments the majority of the people posting aren't happy with it at all but at this point there's not much more to be said.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by sammus12 View Post
                            Not an active player but I'm going to weigh in anyway:

                            This change is good, y'all. Understandably, some may find it unfair, perhaps selfishly so, but that is to be expected and is a perfectly natural reaction. However, stuff like this ultimately makes the game more appealing to (re)play. I am most certainly tempted by it, as I'm sure others are too, and if that is not a good thing for TEC, I don't know what is.

                            I know change is almost never comfortable, not everybody is going to be happy with it, yet it's absolutely necessary for this game to continue and thrive into the future. You can either embrace the change with that in mind or protect your current investments and watch the game stagnate.

                            But, hey, that's just my opinion, anyway.







                            It's very easy to say this as someone who is essentially unaffected by it. And yes, bringing people BACK to the game is very important but so is retention. Something pushed you away at one point. Something you felt was not fair. Or lack of play time. Or lack of engagement. Who knows. But this cycle of "renaissance" and then "death" must be stopped. The way you stop it is by listening to your playerbase/subscribers/customers. The NGE (look it up) in SWG killed it. But they still allowed you to respec even there. I don't think that's something that's too much to ask.
                            Originally posted by Arconn9
                            First time I used Sabinus today, since my old main got Cuttongued. So was the IC event for his change; was it him getting hit in the head repeatedly by someone? Because I think he's a retard now.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by sammus12 View Post
                              Not an active player but I'm going to weigh in anyway:

                              This change is good, y'all. Understandably, some may find it unfair, perhaps selfishly so, but that is to be expected and is a perfectly natural reaction. However, stuff like this ultimately makes the game more appealing to (re)play. I am most certainly tempted by it, as I'm sure others are too, and if that is not a good thing for TEC, I don't know what is.

                              I know change is almost never comfortable, not everybody is going to be happy with it, yet it's absolutely necessary for this game to continue and thrive into the future. You can either embrace the change with that in mind or protect your current investments and watch the game stagnate.

                              But, hey, that's just my opinion, anyway.
                              As someone that is also not very active and that is unaffected by these changes since I am no longer part of the top-end/meta, I can see why these changes are very problematic for certain people. It was indeed an interesting change and one that was necessary, but in my mind it is nowhere near the change that it should have been.

                              I feel like mostly everyone in these forums fail to see the problem for what it really is. The traits themselves aren't broken although the entire trait system and character generator could be thoroughly upgraded to offer a more interesting outcome.

                              The one true issue here is simple: the current stats system. Sceadu has made a change some time ago that allows characters to bypass the old max of 200 in any given stat and THAT is the true problem here. It was a needless and poorly thought out change that, in my mind, was likely fueled as a way to funnel in more micro-transactions. He tried to make it sound like the old stat system was unbalanced and didn't work as intended and yadda yadda, but that is completely false. Stat-boosting traits worked fine before - they gave you an early advantage and made you have to spend less role-points on your stats. They didn't have to boost your stats past the 200 threshold, they already made you save anywhere from 500-3500 RPs.

                              The stat change also offset the existing balance when it comes to actions and skills that were designed to function based on a maximum stat cap of 200. I did make a prior post regarding this issue and whoever it was decided to delete it in that other thread. It's really simple, if the person who designed for example the FOOT STOMP skill wanted you to reach a maximum efficacy of 75% knockdown with 200 strength, it will now result in a higher % because you can now reach far above 200 strength. This example is completely fictional and just serves as that - an example.

                              How to fix it is simple:

                              1) Revert to the previous 200 stat cap.
                              2) Reimburse the RPs spent for the characters who are above 200 in any stat at a rate of 1:100 (same price as purchasing stat increases).
                              3) Revamp the character generator.
                              4) Revamp the traits system.

                              That being said, I don't think anyone that is currently on staff understands how to make a compelling system that will not be riddled with penalties and really poorly thought out game design mechanics. The stat change is, in my mind, the worst game design decision that has been made in the history of the game. There is nothing else that even comes close to it and I don't have any faith in the current staff to fix it.

                              Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
                              Most people recognize that an update to the trait system was badly needed. What we are hearing is that where players are feeling out of line with the recent change, is that you feel that it has acted as a hamstring for older characters that fall outside the new trait system.

                              Please take a moment to provide your constructive feedback on how you would remedy this perceived hamstring.

                              Would simply allowing everyone to reselect traits be considered equitable? Is the main concern with Cineran characters and the extra freebie? If this was modified to be more in line with what is perceived for other nationalities, would that suffice? Is everything basically fine now that people have had time to digest things?
                              Please take the time and re-read Siddhe's post regarding this matter. Personally I consider the current staff as clueless when it comes to game design. To me it reads as "We have no idea why people are angry, we've lost a whole bunch of players because of this, please help us!". It's like they didn't even realize that the stats change are the origin of the issue. And if you consider one of Tale's post on the subject in the other thread (a post that was deleted, by the way), he didn't even understand what Sceadu's stats change had actually done to the stat system.
                              Last edited by TEC_Ghuan; 04-06-2019, 11:24 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jkidd View Post
                                any updates on fixing the char gen/traits disaster?
                                We are working on an updated plan. When I have details that I can share, I absolutely will. It's one of those slow and methodical so that further tweaks will be unnecessary kinds of things.

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