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  • #31
    Originally posted by Siddhe View Post

    We are working on an updated plan. When I have details that I can share, I absolutely will. It's one of those slow and methodical so that further tweaks will be unnecessary kinds of things.
    We appreciate the staff continuing to put effort into ensuring the playerbase is heard and action is taken to produce the most equitable solution (even if we know we can't please -everyone-).

    I do want to reiterate and confirm Ghuan's point that the primary concern is the affect on the end game meta of stats. It's not just that a trait allows an early boost to a stat, it's that the extra trait can effectively allow new character identical to my own to have a permanent advantage over my current character. Being able to add lets say Nimble feet, would mean their character would always have this +10 (or so) defense compared to my character, and I'd always feel like I missed out and wasted money and time dumped into this character that is effectively capped below theirs, even though we made the exact same choices and investment.

    Group A seems to be of the mindset "+10? Sounds pretty minimal what's the big deal, change is good"

    Group B is of the mindset "I've spend 20 years playing this game with sub-par characters, learning the mechanics to understand the meta and identifying the most effective way to roll the exact character I want. Yesterday I pulled the trigger to invest thousands of RP's and @chop my main to have a chance at a real top end meta character. And today the meta changed. **** me..."

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    • #32
      So I just read the Roadmap posting and I would love to hear more about this. Traits have long since been a soapbox issue for me but I'm feeling a bit skeptical in my understanding of things. While I am sure there's more info to come, is there any chance we will get to talk some of this out in a way that is different than Forum posts? Is there any chance we can get something like a TECtalk where a GM can field questions and clarify some of the details without the coldness or rigidity of TEC forum posts?

      I also want to take a moment to suggest that maybe certain aspects get done in smaller chunks. Perhaps like a "good faith" kind of bargain. As per my earlier tome that i posted I personally believe a complete overhaul is needed but is there any small stuff that can be done in short term just to improve quality of life? While I am selfish in some of my reasoning for this, I think toning down some of the HUGE negative impacts of certain traits would be a wonderful method of appetizing the playerbase. Traits like squeamish, stutterer, fear of magic, berserker could maybe be tweaked to be less-severe in their hard mechanical aspects. It would do a lot for us to get to talk out some of these things "in real time" and I think would help to show us the goals and direction the GM staff are looking to move toward with a couple minor edits and quality-of-life improvements.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by pineapple_shoes View Post
        I also want to take a moment to suggest that maybe certain aspects get done in smaller chunks. Perhaps like a "good faith" kind of bargain. As per my earlier tome that i posted I personally believe a complete overhaul is needed but is there any small stuff that can be done in short term just to improve quality of life? While I am selfish in some of my reasoning for this, I think toning down some of the HUGE negative impacts of certain traits would be a wonderful method of appetizing the playerbase. Traits like squeamish, stutterer, fear of magic, berserker could maybe be tweaked to be less-severe in their hard mechanical aspects. It would do a lot for us to get to talk out some of these things "in real time" and I think would help to show us the goals and direction the GM staff are looking to move toward with a couple minor edits and quality-of-life improvements.
        While I get that you're anxious for changes, making a bunch of other small changes is just going to make things worse and more convoluted to solve the problem in the long run. I promise that the trait system is a priority for us, and it's being focused on heavily. We appreciate your patience while it's being worked on, and as I have more information about what a new system might look like, I will share. Promise.

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        • #34
          **Reposting because first time got deleted by spam filter thing**

          Thanks for the reply. For me it's less about anxiety and more about the concern that we move from one funky system to another. The old changes lacked community input and as a result the troubleshooting seemed flawed in its methodology and oftentimes short-sighted in its scope. The most recent changes were meant to be a boon to players but we as a community saw and understood the hope, but again felt frustrated by the fact that certain aspects were short-sighted and flawed in nature. My thought of beginning with a couple of bad traits would be just a small rollback on the severity of some of the most notorious problems and serve in part as a "beta" for some of the bigger and upcoming changes and would likely overall help maybe find a balance and understanding of when a trait is TOO severe vs not severe ENOUGH to worry about. As it is we seem to have those as absolute values (examples: Fear of Magic cuts people off from major aspects of the game and thus un-fun. Vs Gullible has no tangible negative for most chars unless you chose to RP it out). The goal would be to find a happier middle ground to inform the bigger overall project while improving the gameplay quality for players in the process.

          A bigger aspect of this is the communication. Forum chatter here is decent but I believe the community at large would love to hear a more intimate and fluid conversation about ideas and methodology. By its nature, forum discussion is often cold, lacking vocal context, and polarizing as we have to just wall-of-text our ideas or clarity. An issue like traits needs some fluidity of discussion and some back and forth/input from the community. Some in-game testing is a great way to help open that conversation and gives everyone a launching point or bountiful discussion about ideas and edits.

          I have confidence you'll keep us updated, but i'm personally afraid that a major overhaul will lack diverse perspectives and will largely be done "behind the curtain" as it has been in the past

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          • #35
            Originally posted by pineapple_shoes View Post
            For me it's less about anxiety and more about the concern that we move from one funky system to another.
            I don't like the way this reads. Clarifying- For me it's less about a desire for immediate action/satisfaction, but more about the process of learning and understanding the impacts of new systems and changes.

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            • #36
              Bring back the beta room and get the players that know mechanics well to work through some iterations and provide feedback. I by the way am not putting myself forward there are much better players that KNOW combat that could be a huge help in this endeavor. So take advantage of it.

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              • #37
                Japes did something similar with promises of prizes for those who won their testing tournament rounds. The players who haven't quit since are still waiting on their promised prizes. It was a pretty good time though.

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                • #38
                  A real ressurection of the BRP would be nice

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                  • #39
                    I'm wondering if it would be worth it to change the stat improving traits so that they don't affect the max cap for stats. Either roll back the max cap for stats to 200 or keep it where it is, but make it so everyone has access to the same max cap regardless of traits. Stat traits would basically just be a bonus to your stats when you rolled your character. That would prevent the current issue of characters who were rolled before the changes never having the ability to equal newer characters in terms of stats. It might also be worth it to tone down stats a bit and make ranks a bigger part of the equation. Any thoughts or issues with that approach?
                    Don't tread on me.

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                    • #40
                      everyone with those traits CAN reach those new maximums... and keep the 200 stats they had that they don't qualify for. Those people are complaining that they can't now get another stat up higher than 200 due to free automatic traits giving an extra trait for certain nations, and also keep the 200 stats that they don't qualify for. Basically, they're whining about not being able to cheat harder.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ArchMagi View Post
                        everyone with those traits CAN reach those new maximums... and keep the 200 stats they had that they don't qualify for. Those people are complaining that they can't now get another stat up higher than 200 due to free automatic traits giving an extra trait for certain nations, and also keep the 200 stats that they don't qualify for. Basically, they're whining about not being able to cheat harder.
                        I'm confident you don't understand the issue. Actually reading this a few times, I'm pretty sure you're drunk or on drugs as I can't tell what you're saying at all ("and keep the 200 stats they had that they don't qualify for" - what does this even mean?).

                        To Hordini's question, this is how it used to be before the trait change a couple years ago, and I think everyone was fine with this as you could spend the money to eventually get to the exact maxes everyone else was at, but I believe GM's were trying to push the meta forward so people would need to roll new chars to still be competitive. My character for instance had his strength go up by about 35 points, which was cool. But his dex was capped around 15 or so points lower. This combined with other characters getting +35 or so to dex, meant he was at about a +25 to-hit defecit, which his 50 point strength difference just didn't make up for, even with extra armor. To keep up with the meta, I deleted the character as he was easily defeated by new characters with a fraction of his ranks.

                        This latest change I don't believe had that goal, but in effect did push the meta again, as most nationalities I believe are affected and now get one extra trait that characters with the exact same choices didn't before which effects -max- stats, not just at-roll stats.
                        Here's a breakdown of a character rolled before and rolled after with the -same- choices.

                        Before -
                        Pos Trait 1 - Unpredictability (Forced, Gadaene)
                        Pos Trait 2 - Steady Hands
                        Pos Trait 3 - Self-Taught
                        Neg Trait 1 - Provencal Attitude
                        Neg Trait 2 - Illiterate


                        After -
                        National Bonus - Unpredictability (Forced, Gadaene)
                        Pos Trait 1 - Nimble feet
                        Pos Trait 2 - Steady Hands
                        Pos Trait 3 - Self-Taught
                        Neg Trait 1 - Provencal Attitude
                        Neg Trait 2 - Illiterate
                        Neg Trait 3 - Superstitious fears

                        The new meta means that new characters get an extra positive trait, which in the above case means a +10 or so to dodge always compared to the before character, with the cost of now having superstitious fears (or whatever negative you choose).

                        What we're complaining about is that we just spent everything to achieve the new meta, just to have that new meta moved on us. So now I have to wait till my new character is 10 years old and I have another 10k rps (for stat increases) to purchase a new char to hit that meta again. Likely meta will move right after I do at this rate...

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                        • #42
                          what I mean is, all those characters who had their combat stats (at least) at 200 points before any of the changes to stats and traits, got to keep those stats at 200 points, after the traits and stats changes... but also got to put more rolepoints into their stats to get higher than 200 points if they had a trait that increased said stat. While losing nothing if they had a trait that lowered a different stat.
                          Does that make it make sense for you? Nobody LOST anything when the traits were changed, meaning anyone with a negative trait to a stat didn't suffer for it, if it was already capped at the old max of 200. It was stated so by a member of staff, so is not my opinion, but a statement by the gms, that that is the case. When I learned that, I stopped caring about what those people thought of the change, and so should you.

                          *edit: you are free to keep caring about the other reasons for the change that bother you though. This only applies to those characters that want to "cheat more"*

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                          • #43
                            If that is what you are the most concerned about , older player 'cheating harder', fine there is an easy fix. Force every player into the new traits system. Let everyone re-pick their traits, because too much has changed over the years and traits that were good before have gotten way worse, and be done with it. Oh, and if are thinking that because I've been so outspoken about how horrible this system is that I'm one of those 'cheat harder' types. My character is just over one year old and 3400 TCR. I'm too far along with him to start over. I can however see how this change could drive older players out of the game and that is one of the reasons why our players online have been reduced massively.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ArchMagi View Post
                              what I mean is, all those characters who had their combat stats (at least) at 200 points before any of the changes to stats and traits, got to keep those stats at 200 points, after the traits and stats changes... but also got to put more rolepoints into their stats to get higher than 200 points if they had a trait that increased said stat. While losing nothing if they had a trait that lowered a different stat.
                              Does that make it make sense for you? Nobody LOST anything when the traits were changed, meaning anyone with a negative trait to a stat didn't suffer for it, if it was already capped at the old max of 200. It was stated so by a member of staff, so is not my opinion, but a statement by the gms, that that is the case. When I learned that, I stopped caring about what those people thought of the change, and so should you.

                              *edit: you are free to keep caring about the other reasons for the change that bother you though. This only applies to those characters that want to "cheat more"*
                              Yes I see what you're saying now, I didn't realize this was the case (hence my obvious confusion) and redact my criticism if true. Was this stated by staff in the forums or via bug report reply? I agree entirely this shouldn't be the case and that the new stat maxes should be everyone's maxes regardless of where you were. So if you had 200 dex and chose ox's grace your max should be 185, just like Gydon's was. Without this, people are getting positives from traits but not the negatives, and that is HUGE.

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                              • #45
                                If the option ends up being stats canít go over 200 with the fix you are looking to do with traits, you must allow traits reroll. I donít necessarily have s problem with this concept as Ghuan pointed out that the system wasnít designed for 200+ stats.

                                the problem ends up being anyone serious about combat has picked certain traits like nimble feet and steady hands. This gets them over 200 and if you nerf that then these characters have the negative traits without the positive.

                                If this change is forced on all characters then do is the favor of calling it a pwipe, because thatís what it is.

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