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Character Traits System Proposal

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lantraste View Post

    Traits currently apply a percentage bonus to your stat levels. That's why it's only taking 8 course completions to go up a word level in dexterity for those with steady hands and finesse. I'm sure it'll work just like it does now, where you take a 50% hit to speed on your stat sheet for being prone for example. Hope this helps.
    Right, I get that. I just mean how will changing traits affect the stats that we already have? If you get rid of a trait that increased your dexterity, and never upgraded past the initial level, will it decrease your word level? What if you DID upgrade past that? How will that change what you've already done? etc
    Originally posted by Atilu
    You'd probably be happier if you just didn't come to the forums.
    Nicarus says to you, "Ya should shadow me an' keep track o' things. We can call it tha Dew-y number-ic system or somethin'.... have to work on that"

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    • #17
      If you have steady hands and finesse right now and maxed out your dexterity your base would still be 200 just like those who maxed the stat before. The 20% modifier from those two traits would make your effective dexterity 240. It'd just go back to 200 if those traits were removed unless something buggy happened. You'd see the word level change the same way you see the word level change when laying down from a standing position.

      The changes made nearly two years ago were to the order of operations for stat calculations. The game imposed a hard cap of 200 no matter what and the 'stats' listing reflected only base stats and not modifiers. In the above scenario you would see a word level equivalent to 166 but your effective stat would be 200. When the changes were made it allowed the player to buy another 34 points worth of stat increases to bump their base stat from the previous 166 to the standard 200. This resulted in the training courses being haunted by a few "maxed" characters for a few days and a horrible balance issue ever since.

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      • #18
        I like pretty much what everyone said so far with one exception. The cost to respec should be what was suggested: free, 1k, 3k. 5k. I understand that there are a lot of players that are willing to blow RPs to min/max their setup and that's fine. The problem that I can see are people being so eager to get out of bad traits that they jump the gun and get into another set of bad traits, which effectively wastes that free @re-trait. Then you are looking at thousands of RPs to change something about your character, that can be altered through time. Anyone remember when superstitious fears was a good pick? For people that don't have the benefit of being premium or bps 3k is an unusually high amount.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by pineapple_shoes View Post
          Overall I like the ideas behind the change but I want to parrot a few of the already suggested concerns. If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales, it just creates a new level of min-maxing and skews the "competition" heavily in favor of those who have RP's to burn. Considering the ability to purchase StP, this can very well serve as a "pay to win" function. I believe the cost should be high (7-8,000 RPS or so) so as it serves as an option for characters, but with the major expectation being that the traits you select at the gen are the traits you carry for the life of the character. I know if this option was presented to me right now I would, without hesitation, begin banking RPs to make it happen and so it serves as an option to give players choice and agency.
          Could you clarify this particular paragraph? The way I see it, based on what Siddhe has written above is that no matter what happens you will retain your base stat.

          Think of it this way: You have your base stat and your actual stat. Your base stat is your 0-200 number before traits are calculated. Your actual is your base stat + % bonus that the trait gives. Being given the ability to swap traits around would -never- impact your base stat. It would only make your 'actual stat' fluctuate. Say you have 240 dexterity as an actual stat. You swap out finesse + steady hands for Ox's grace and Berserker. You then end up with an actual dexterity base stat of 200 - % bonus of Ox's grace and you end up somewhere around 185. You just went from 240 to 185. You don't get to keep it at 240. You already reached your cap of 200, so you won't be able to overtrain the 185 and take it back to 200.

          This is how I understand the proposed scenario. Knowing this, I don't see any potential for issues to arise. All it does is allow the player to try different combos and see what works best with his character.

          That's the one thing I don't understand from your post when you say 'If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales...'

          Thanks!
          Last edited by TEC_Ghuan; 05-16-2019, 08:19 AM.

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          • #20
            Lantraste, that's still not addressing the question I have, so perhaps I'm not specifying it well. I'll just leave it for now.


            Originally posted by Ariden View Post
            The problem that I can see are people being so eager to get out of bad traits that they jump the gun and get into another set of bad traits, which effectively wastes that free @re-trait. Then you are looking at thousands of RPs to change something about your character, that can be altered through time.
            I think that traits should be something that you should have to think about carefully anyway. I guess this just depends on how traits are going to be viewed as a whole though. Are they something that should be part of your character, or just essentially something that can be changed at will?

            Originally posted by Atilu
            You'd probably be happier if you just didn't come to the forums.
            Nicarus says to you, "Ya should shadow me an' keep track o' things. We can call it tha Dew-y number-ic system or somethin'.... have to work on that"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post

              Could you clarify this particular paragraph? The way I see it, based on what Siddhe has written above is that no matter what happens you will retain your base stat.

              Think of it this way: You have your base stat and your actual stat. Your base stat is your 0-200 number before traits are calculated. Your actual is your base stat + % bonus that the trait gives. Being given the ability to swap traits around would -never- impact your base stat. It would only make your 'actual stat' fluctuate. Say you have 240 dexterity as an actual stat. You swap out finesse + steady hands for Ox's grace and Berserker. You then end up with an actual dexterity base stat of 200 - % bonus of Ox's grace and you end up somewhere around 185. You just went from 240 to 185. You don't get to keep it at 240. You already reached your cap of 200, so you won't be able to overtrain the 185 and take it back to 200.

              This is how I understand the proposed scenario. Knowing this, I don't see any potential for issues to arise. All it does is allow the player to try different combos and see what works best with his character.

              That's the one thing I don't understand from your post when you say 'If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales...'

              Thanks!
              As it is, some people have stats that allow them to go beyond the threshold of 200 all the way up to 240. However, in order to reach 240 you had to spend 4,000 rolepoints to be able to satisfy that potential. If a player were to remove the traits that allowed them to move beyond the 200 point threshold, I think they should have the option to retrieve their RPS spent and thus also have the threshold removed. The functioning point being that I will have spent 4k on stats that can no longer go as far as they used to. I'm not losing anything that I don't expect to lose, but it'd be great to be able to get a refund or redistribution of those stat points.

              I would compare it similarly to when major skill changes have happened. I know when the swords change happened that separated styles and the ability to jump between them dropped, while some were upset by the friction of changing their combat style, most people were upset for a long time about having lost thousands of SP and hours as a result of now having to unlearn/untrain at a reduced cost and skill "buybacks" weren't offered. Most people would have agreed at the time that swords was too strong, but then losing other stuff seems like an affront to the player. My request is that, for at least a limited time if not permanently, there's a stat refund/redistribution option for stats that went above the 200 threshold as a result of stats that are lost as a result of stat-reroll-changes.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by pineapple_shoes View Post

                As it is, some people have stats that allow them to go beyond the threshold of 200 all the way up to 240. However, in order to reach 240 you had to spend 4,000 rolepoints to be able to satisfy that potential. If a player were to remove the traits that allowed them to move beyond the 200 point threshold, I think they should have the option to retrieve their RPS spent and thus also have the threshold removed. The functioning point being that I will have spent 4k on stats that can no longer go as far as they used to. I'm not losing anything that I don't expect to lose, but it'd be great to be able to get a refund or redistribution of those stat points.
                Alright, now this makes more sense to me.

                So, in theory, if finesse + steady hands gave you +20% bonus that means that your base stat before the stat changes was at more or less 167. (167+20%=200.4) and you spent 4k RPs when in reality it should've cost you 3.3k, so if changes were to happen you would have lost 700 RPs.

                I could see people who have spent some RPs to max it out to receive some kind of compensation based on the difference in cost, but not a full reimbursement since you will get to keep what you earned. Your base stat was never at 200 to begin with. I'd be totally OK with people filing requests to get a reimbursement.


                EDIT: The above is no longer relevant. There was some confusion on Pineaepple_shoes' part. Please read Pranzor's post below for the detailed explanation of the system.
                Last edited by TEC_Ghuan; 05-16-2019, 08:18 AM.

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                • #23
                  I think we are looking at 2 slightly different aspects of traits.

                  All traits have the base "potential" of 200. As in right now regardless of my roll I could go and buy with RPS traits up to 200. While My initial roll may have only placed me at 130 and the basic upgrades to 140, 6k RPS will take me up to the 200 points where I can always count on being... Unless traits are a factor.

                  Having steady hands gives me the option to upgrade my dexterity to (just making this number up) 220. Which means that I had to purchase the 6k to get to the 200, as everyone can, but then payed another 2k more to get to the potential of 220 where steady hands allows me to go.

                  I am concerned about the RP's spend taking stats beyond 200. If I do away with steady hands on an @re-trait then I have 20 upgrades I paid for, ran the courses on, but now will never get to access again. I no longer have a potential of 220 as a result of removing the trait and thus I will have spent rolepoints on a product I am no longer allowed to own. It is my opinion that for those point thresholds beyond 200 that are removed as a result of trait changes, that we should be able to re-distribute those stats, or get a RPS refund.

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                  • #24
                    That's not how it should work though Pineapple. You should have the base stat that you can increase up to 200 flat. Then you have you add in the bonus of steady hands and you get to 220. However, you never pay for the increase above 200 because that is baked into the stat bonus.

                    So in your example your base was 130, adding in your 20 point stat bonus, your actual is 150. You buy 70 increases to get yourself to 200 base, with your bonus you are at 220. Stripping away steady hands trait should drop you back to 200, no refund needed.

                    Second scenario is you have finesse that gives you -15 to strength. Your base stat is 150, then you add in your trait bonus (which happens to be negative) and you are at 135. You then max your stat by taking 50 increases into strength and wind up at 185, but your base is at 200. You remove that trait and the bonus (which again is negative) disappears and then you are at 200 actual.

                    This is how it should work and if so then there is no need to refund any rps spent because nothing is lost.

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                    • #25
                      Am I the only one that doesn't give an eff about traits? I implemented them when they were first rolled out not knowing exactly what any of them did, and have seen them go through multiple levels of impacting my character. Superstitious fears anyone? Wasn't a big deal when I picked it, sucks incredibly now. No GSP farming for this guy. I haven't even seen a tear cracked to know what the whole sequence is. Oh well, I've adapted and lived with it.

                      My character is a knivesman, all about being fast and dexterous. I went with steady hands and nimble feet. Sounded good 19 years ago. Until recently they were terrible picks. I had already maxed those stats through copious amounts of RP expenditure thanks to being Iridinian and starting at average everything. So those traits were essentially worthless, a bonus to my already maxed out speed. Then they removed the 200 cap and suddenly those were great picks, lucky day.

                      In all likelihood, IF and when this trait revamp occurs, I'll stay the same. I know a lot of people are looking forward to picking up self-taught, which is tempting since everyone is all protective about their ranks and unwilling to share their knowledge, but I've been doing it the regular way for years now, why change? Not like anything I self-train at this point is actually going to make a big impact.

                      The point of all my rambling about my personal character is this: Will revamping the trait system bring players back? Maybe. Will it make people interested in gladiating and blood spars again (something that is key to the identity of my character)? Possibly, but I feel we'll still have people complaining that a certain build is the best way to go. It also does nothing to address the fact that 8 out of 10 attendees are likely to be staves users. Will it open up alternate or meaningful story arcs? I'd like to think yes, but if all resources are spent un-tangling this muddled mess of traits, I'm inclined to lean towards unlikely.

                      Everyone is very vocal about the topic at hand. I'm usually pretty quiet about things, but the direction the game is going, they are looking for feedback and I thought I'd throw mine in. There are a lot of things I want, but traits are not one of them.

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                      • #26
                        Well the thing is it does matter. Yes you can live with a poor choice of traits, yes you can pick a trait and then it becomes trash and not die. However, why live with a bad setup because the game changed?

                        Instead of or in addition to four positive traits I think allowing a second neutral would be more interesting. I canít see picking a 4th trait because the negatives will outweigh the benefits at least in the current iteration however by allowing 2 neutrals you could make some interesting setups. Like a max strength berserker or a night owl hand of fate archer. Overall I think a lot of the traits should be just chucked because I don't see the benefit of choosing any but a few of them.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
                          T
                          c) Trait rerolls after that should be far more expensive than 1000. I think 5000, or even 10000 is far more suitable. Changing a character's whole build should be a -big deal-. By charging a lot, folks would be rightfully discouraged from "casually" changing their characters' personality just for minmaxing purposes. If costs a lot, it needs to be done carefully and with much prep. The bad downhill effect of traits being cheap to reroll is that someone like me (a powergaming minmaxer), well, I'm gonna take Self Train every time it's convenient to me, and swap out Illiterate only when I'm in constable recruitment (or whatever, just an example) ain't in session. That's...weird, bad gaming of the system.
                          d) I suggest a cooldown period between rerolls and trait swaps. Perhaps 1 IG year. Perhaps 1 IRL year. Thoughts, folks?

                          The discussion is interesting. I look forward to checking back for more folks' input, and GMs' eventual finalization of a plan. Overall, looks promising. Cheers all around, folks.
                          I like, and agree with El here.

                          Originally posted by Travius View Post
                          Also, powergamers rejoice, you now will NEVER be caught, giving me little to no incentive to continue.
                          Koppe, my min-maxer, is 13 years old. How old is your current main? You shouldn't be able to catch me. I'm literally YEARS ahead of you. The ability to have started a character literally years before another character should have advantages. Mainly being ranks. Someone at 42 months old, should not have the same ranks as someone that's 100 months old.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tweninger View Post

                            I like, and agree with El here.



                            Koppe, my min-maxer, is 13 years old. How old is your current main? You shouldn't be able to catch me. I'm literally YEARS ahead of you. The ability to have started a character literally years before another character should have advantages. Mainly being ranks. Someone at 42 months old, should not have the same ranks as someone that's 100 months old.

                            I made Chuvros before the merger to Skotos so naturally his traits were poorly chosen like many others. Ultimately I decided to chop him before chop existed, so that was for nothing.

                            There were a few characters in between that were deleted due to traits/stats, but barely a few thousand ranks each.

                            Travius is 6+ years old. He has poor empathy..... who knew that would be as much of an impact? Also, doesnt fit the meta traits.

                            Renovatur isnt that old, I put ALOT of work into him. But when I made him, it wasnt made clear to me that the caps were modified to exceed or not reach the 200 cap. He has ox's grace.

                            I now have a newer character that I have been training like a good boy to fit the new meta. I admit I am tired of the changes, but it was made very clear that I had to deal with it and move on.


                            I would ask that my efforts be combined into one character, RP and SP.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ariden View Post
                              That's not how it should work though Pineapple. You should have the base stat that you can increase up to 200 flat. Then you have you add in the bonus of steady hands and you get to 220. However, you never pay for the increase above 200 because that is baked into the stat bonus.

                              So in your example your base was 130, adding in your 20 point stat bonus, your actual is 150. You buy 70 increases to get yourself to 200 base, with your bonus you are at 220. Stripping away steady hands trait should drop you back to 200, no refund needed.

                              Second scenario is you have finesse that gives you -15 to strength. Your base stat is 150, then you add in your trait bonus (which happens to be negative) and you are at 135. You then max your stat by taking 50 increases into strength and wind up at 185, but your base is at 200. You remove that trait and the bonus (which again is negative) disappears and then you are at 200 actual.

                              This is how it should work and if so then there is no need to refund any rps spent because nothing is lost.
                              We will not be refunding role points for bonuses received from traits. Those bonuses were not paid for by role points and do not warrant a refund. Ariden is correct in his assumption that you did not pay for attribute increases up to 240 but instead paid for attribute increases to 200.

                              In contrast, we will also not be charging role points for the negative bonus lost when changing a negative or neutral trait.

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                              • #30
                                New trait @ bonus to hit people with uncooked fish, penalty to throw cooked fish. Iím coming for you gms!
                                "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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