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Character Traits System Proposal

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  • TEC_Ghuan
    replied
    Originally posted by Pranzor View Post

    Before the change to attributes where traits could push bonuses over 200 and cap negatives under 200, the ceiling for attributes was at 200. If you had a trait that gave a bonus to the attribute, your base stat would be capped below 200. That means that you actually saved quite a few role points by not having to take the base stat all the way to 200 under the old system to achieve the maximum. If the traits are removed, then the stat returns to 200. You did not lose out on your base attribute but instead gave up the bonus from the trait itself.
    Yep. Like Pranzor said here, the only thing that traits did under the old system was to save you RPs when it comes to stat effects. It literally did nothing else. For example, that nimble feet you chose in the old system? It likely saved you 5-600 RPs on speed and 5-600 RPs on agility. That trait was worth 1000-1200 RPs.

    Athletic, Mountain Lungs, etc. were by far better traits if you had the RPs to spend on stats because they had permanent effects that could not be overcome by spending RPs.

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  • TEC_Ghuan
    replied
    Originally posted by Dogg View Post
    I am dumb, please help clarify this for me. I've read it multiple times and it's still not processing. I'll use speed for an example because I know without a doubt I had this maxed out. I'm a little fuzzy on dexterity at that point though. I had it to Outstanding, with no ability to increase it. They raised the cap past 200, and with my traits, I then had the ability to increase it further. I very much had to use rps for stat increases to get it to remarkable. If my traits were to change and drop my speed so it caps at 200 instead of over, that's wasted rp's, yes?
    Alright, so here goes:

    Nimble feet used to give more or less 5-6 bonus to speed under the old system. Traits + your stats couldn't get above 200. The system calculated it so that you had your BASE stat and your ACTUAL stat (the one with the traits added, the one that shows on your stats sheet). By using your RPs, you managed to increase your speed up to 194-195. That number is your BASE stat. You couldn't bring it any higher because you had nimble feet as a trait which gave you that +5-6 bonus to your speed. Your ACTUAL stat was 200. The system was capped at 200, so you couldn't train your BASE stat any higher.

    The new system made it so that no matter what traits you have, you are now able to bring your BASE stat all the way up to 200. This means that you can now spend RPs to increase your speed all the way up from 194-195 to 200. So now, since you have the nimble feet trait, it gets added on top or your BASE stat. It then becomes your ACTUAL stat. I don't know if the bonuses changed or not so I can't say exactly what the number is now, but your ACTUAL stat is at 200+nimble feet bonus. If the values would be identical to the old system, your ACTUAL stat would now be 205-206.

    The RPs you spent carried on and allowed you to reach higher than 200. This is how it works for positive traits. Let's talk about negative traits now.

    Let's say that finesse gives a +20 bonus to dexterity at 200 dexterity and a -15 penalty to strength. Your maximum that strength can be is 200 BASE stat, but since you have a -15 penalty, your ACTUAL stat will not be able to reach any higher than 185.

    I hope that I managed to explain it clearly. I can try to provide more examples if you like.

    ---

    Thank you Pranzor for that post. That is how I believed it worked, hence the confusion in my other post when discussing with Pineapple_shoes. I will edit my other post to avoid any further confusion. This is the kind of communication that is endearing to see and that has been missing for way too long.

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  • Pranzor
    replied
    Originally posted by Dogg View Post
    I am dumb, please help clarify this for me. I've read it multiple times and it's still not processing. I'll use speed for an example because I know without a doubt I had this maxed out. I'm a little fuzzy on dexterity at that point though. I had it to Outstanding, with no ability to increase it. They raised the cap past 200, and with my traits, I then had the ability to increase it further. I very much had to use rps for stat increases to get it to remarkable. If my traits were to change and drop my speed so it caps at 200 instead of over, that's wasted rp's, yes?
    Before the change to attributes where traits could push bonuses over 200 and cap negatives under 200, the ceiling for attributes was at 200. If you had a trait that gave a bonus to the attribute, your base stat would be capped below 200. That means that you actually saved quite a few role points by not having to take the base stat all the way to 200 under the old system to achieve the maximum. If the traits are removed, then the stat returns to 200. You did not lose out on your base attribute but instead gave up the bonus from the trait itself.

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  • Lantraste
    replied
    Using your example, you're gaining a 5% bonus to speed from having nimble feet. Your base stat (what you spend RPs on) was either 190 or 191 (I never picked this trait before the changes so unsure which way it rounded) because the game checked to make sure a stat didn't exceed 200 points AFTER the bonus was applied. The change was made to check for the 200 point stat BEFORE the bonus was applied. That's why you could suddenly buy 9 or 10 more points for speed. If for some reason you chose to get rid of nimble feet now you'd just have 200 speed again like you did before. No wasted role points. It'd be 200 * 1 instead of 200 * 1.05 like you have now.



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  • Travius
    replied
    Originally posted by Dogg View Post
    I am dumb, please help clarify this for me. I've read it multiple times and it's still not processing. I'll use speed for an example because I know without a doubt I had this maxed out. I'm a little fuzzy on dexterity at that point though. I had it to Outstanding, with no ability to increase it. They raised the cap past 200, and with my traits, I then had the ability to increase it further. I very much had to use rps for stat increases to get it to remarkable. If my traits were to change and drop my speed so it caps at 200 instead of over, that's wasted rp's, yes?
    Your RPs brought it to 200, the trait took it beyond that.

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  • Dogg
    replied
    I am dumb, please help clarify this for me. I've read it multiple times and it's still not processing. I'll use speed for an example because I know without a doubt I had this maxed out. I'm a little fuzzy on dexterity at that point though. I had it to Outstanding, with no ability to increase it. They raised the cap past 200, and with my traits, I then had the ability to increase it further. I very much had to use rps for stat increases to get it to remarkable. If my traits were to change and drop my speed so it caps at 200 instead of over, that's wasted rp's, yes?

    Leave a comment:


  • Elowynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Pranzor View Post

    We will not be refunding role points for bonuses received from traits. Those bonuses were not paid for by role points and do not warrant a refund. Ariden is correct in his assumption that you did not pay for attribute increases up to 240 but instead paid for attribute increases to 200.

    In contrast, we will also not be charging role points for the negative bonus lost when changing a negative or neutral trait.
    Hearing that officially from a mechanics GM clarifies a lot, thank you.

    I think this makes sense. Players didnít pay for more than 200, and the bonus comes and goes with the trait itself. No refunds needed.

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  • Kered
    replied
    New trait @ bonus to hit people with uncooked fish, penalty to throw cooked fish. Iím coming for you gms!

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  • Pranzor
    replied
    Originally posted by Ariden View Post
    That's not how it should work though Pineapple. You should have the base stat that you can increase up to 200 flat. Then you have you add in the bonus of steady hands and you get to 220. However, you never pay for the increase above 200 because that is baked into the stat bonus.

    So in your example your base was 130, adding in your 20 point stat bonus, your actual is 150. You buy 70 increases to get yourself to 200 base, with your bonus you are at 220. Stripping away steady hands trait should drop you back to 200, no refund needed.

    Second scenario is you have finesse that gives you -15 to strength. Your base stat is 150, then you add in your trait bonus (which happens to be negative) and you are at 135. You then max your stat by taking 50 increases into strength and wind up at 185, but your base is at 200. You remove that trait and the bonus (which again is negative) disappears and then you are at 200 actual.

    This is how it should work and if so then there is no need to refund any rps spent because nothing is lost.
    We will not be refunding role points for bonuses received from traits. Those bonuses were not paid for by role points and do not warrant a refund. Ariden is correct in his assumption that you did not pay for attribute increases up to 240 but instead paid for attribute increases to 200.

    In contrast, we will also not be charging role points for the negative bonus lost when changing a negative or neutral trait.

    Leave a comment:


  • Travius
    replied
    Originally posted by Tweninger View Post

    I like, and agree with El here.



    Koppe, my min-maxer, is 13 years old. How old is your current main? You shouldn't be able to catch me. I'm literally YEARS ahead of you. The ability to have started a character literally years before another character should have advantages. Mainly being ranks. Someone at 42 months old, should not have the same ranks as someone that's 100 months old.

    I made Chuvros before the merger to Skotos so naturally his traits were poorly chosen like many others. Ultimately I decided to chop him before chop existed, so that was for nothing.

    There were a few characters in between that were deleted due to traits/stats, but barely a few thousand ranks each.

    Travius is 6+ years old. He has poor empathy..... who knew that would be as much of an impact? Also, doesnt fit the meta traits.

    Renovatur isnt that old, I put ALOT of work into him. But when I made him, it wasnt made clear to me that the caps were modified to exceed or not reach the 200 cap. He has ox's grace.

    I now have a newer character that I have been training like a good boy to fit the new meta. I admit I am tired of the changes, but it was made very clear that I had to deal with it and move on.


    I would ask that my efforts be combined into one character, RP and SP.

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  • Tweninger
    replied
    Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
    T
    c) Trait rerolls after that should be far more expensive than 1000. I think 5000, or even 10000 is far more suitable. Changing a character's whole build should be a -big deal-. By charging a lot, folks would be rightfully discouraged from "casually" changing their characters' personality just for minmaxing purposes. If costs a lot, it needs to be done carefully and with much prep. The bad downhill effect of traits being cheap to reroll is that someone like me (a powergaming minmaxer), well, I'm gonna take Self Train every time it's convenient to me, and swap out Illiterate only when I'm in constable recruitment (or whatever, just an example) ain't in session. That's...weird, bad gaming of the system.
    d) I suggest a cooldown period between rerolls and trait swaps. Perhaps 1 IG year. Perhaps 1 IRL year. Thoughts, folks?

    The discussion is interesting. I look forward to checking back for more folks' input, and GMs' eventual finalization of a plan. Overall, looks promising. Cheers all around, folks.
    I like, and agree with El here.

    Originally posted by Travius View Post
    Also, powergamers rejoice, you now will NEVER be caught, giving me little to no incentive to continue.
    Koppe, my min-maxer, is 13 years old. How old is your current main? You shouldn't be able to catch me. I'm literally YEARS ahead of you. The ability to have started a character literally years before another character should have advantages. Mainly being ranks. Someone at 42 months old, should not have the same ranks as someone that's 100 months old.

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  • Ariden
    replied
    Well the thing is it does matter. Yes you can live with a poor choice of traits, yes you can pick a trait and then it becomes trash and not die. However, why live with a bad setup because the game changed?

    Instead of or in addition to four positive traits I think allowing a second neutral would be more interesting. I canít see picking a 4th trait because the negatives will outweigh the benefits at least in the current iteration however by allowing 2 neutrals you could make some interesting setups. Like a max strength berserker or a night owl hand of fate archer. Overall I think a lot of the traits should be just chucked because I don't see the benefit of choosing any but a few of them.

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  • Dogg
    replied
    Am I the only one that doesn't give an eff about traits? I implemented them when they were first rolled out not knowing exactly what any of them did, and have seen them go through multiple levels of impacting my character. Superstitious fears anyone? Wasn't a big deal when I picked it, sucks incredibly now. No GSP farming for this guy. I haven't even seen a tear cracked to know what the whole sequence is. Oh well, I've adapted and lived with it.

    My character is a knivesman, all about being fast and dexterous. I went with steady hands and nimble feet. Sounded good 19 years ago. Until recently they were terrible picks. I had already maxed those stats through copious amounts of RP expenditure thanks to being Iridinian and starting at average everything. So those traits were essentially worthless, a bonus to my already maxed out speed. Then they removed the 200 cap and suddenly those were great picks, lucky day.

    In all likelihood, IF and when this trait revamp occurs, I'll stay the same. I know a lot of people are looking forward to picking up self-taught, which is tempting since everyone is all protective about their ranks and unwilling to share their knowledge, but I've been doing it the regular way for years now, why change? Not like anything I self-train at this point is actually going to make a big impact.

    The point of all my rambling about my personal character is this: Will revamping the trait system bring players back? Maybe. Will it make people interested in gladiating and blood spars again (something that is key to the identity of my character)? Possibly, but I feel we'll still have people complaining that a certain build is the best way to go. It also does nothing to address the fact that 8 out of 10 attendees are likely to be staves users. Will it open up alternate or meaningful story arcs? I'd like to think yes, but if all resources are spent un-tangling this muddled mess of traits, I'm inclined to lean towards unlikely.

    Everyone is very vocal about the topic at hand. I'm usually pretty quiet about things, but the direction the game is going, they are looking for feedback and I thought I'd throw mine in. There are a lot of things I want, but traits are not one of them.

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  • Ariden
    replied
    That's not how it should work though Pineapple. You should have the base stat that you can increase up to 200 flat. Then you have you add in the bonus of steady hands and you get to 220. However, you never pay for the increase above 200 because that is baked into the stat bonus.

    So in your example your base was 130, adding in your 20 point stat bonus, your actual is 150. You buy 70 increases to get yourself to 200 base, with your bonus you are at 220. Stripping away steady hands trait should drop you back to 200, no refund needed.

    Second scenario is you have finesse that gives you -15 to strength. Your base stat is 150, then you add in your trait bonus (which happens to be negative) and you are at 135. You then max your stat by taking 50 increases into strength and wind up at 185, but your base is at 200. You remove that trait and the bonus (which again is negative) disappears and then you are at 200 actual.

    This is how it should work and if so then there is no need to refund any rps spent because nothing is lost.

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  • pineapple_shoes
    replied
    I think we are looking at 2 slightly different aspects of traits.

    All traits have the base "potential" of 200. As in right now regardless of my roll I could go and buy with RPS traits up to 200. While My initial roll may have only placed me at 130 and the basic upgrades to 140, 6k RPS will take me up to the 200 points where I can always count on being... Unless traits are a factor.

    Having steady hands gives me the option to upgrade my dexterity to (just making this number up) 220. Which means that I had to purchase the 6k to get to the 200, as everyone can, but then payed another 2k more to get to the potential of 220 where steady hands allows me to go.

    I am concerned about the RP's spend taking stats beyond 200. If I do away with steady hands on an @re-trait then I have 20 upgrades I paid for, ran the courses on, but now will never get to access again. I no longer have a potential of 220 as a result of removing the trait and thus I will have spent rolepoints on a product I am no longer allowed to own. It is my opinion that for those point thresholds beyond 200 that are removed as a result of trait changes, that we should be able to re-distribute those stats, or get a RPS refund.

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