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Character Traits System Proposal

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  • pineapple_shoes
    replied
    I think we are looking at 2 slightly different aspects of traits.

    All traits have the base "potential" of 200. As in right now regardless of my roll I could go and buy with RPS traits up to 200. While My initial roll may have only placed me at 130 and the basic upgrades to 140, 6k RPS will take me up to the 200 points where I can always count on being... Unless traits are a factor.

    Having steady hands gives me the option to upgrade my dexterity to (just making this number up) 220. Which means that I had to purchase the 6k to get to the 200, as everyone can, but then payed another 2k more to get to the potential of 220 where steady hands allows me to go.

    I am concerned about the RP's spend taking stats beyond 200. If I do away with steady hands on an @re-trait then I have 20 upgrades I paid for, ran the courses on, but now will never get to access again. I no longer have a potential of 220 as a result of removing the trait and thus I will have spent rolepoints on a product I am no longer allowed to own. It is my opinion that for those point thresholds beyond 200 that are removed as a result of trait changes, that we should be able to re-distribute those stats, or get a RPS refund.

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  • TEC_Ghuan
    replied
    Originally posted by pineapple_shoes View Post

    As it is, some people have stats that allow them to go beyond the threshold of 200 all the way up to 240. However, in order to reach 240 you had to spend 4,000 rolepoints to be able to satisfy that potential. If a player were to remove the traits that allowed them to move beyond the 200 point threshold, I think they should have the option to retrieve their RPS spent and thus also have the threshold removed. The functioning point being that I will have spent 4k on stats that can no longer go as far as they used to. I'm not losing anything that I don't expect to lose, but it'd be great to be able to get a refund or redistribution of those stat points.
    Alright, now this makes more sense to me.

    So, in theory, if finesse + steady hands gave you +20% bonus that means that your base stat before the stat changes was at more or less 167. (167+20%=200.4) and you spent 4k RPs when in reality it should've cost you 3.3k, so if changes were to happen you would have lost 700 RPs.

    I could see people who have spent some RPs to max it out to receive some kind of compensation based on the difference in cost, but not a full reimbursement since you will get to keep what you earned. Your base stat was never at 200 to begin with. I'd be totally OK with people filing requests to get a reimbursement.


    EDIT: The above is no longer relevant. There was some confusion on Pineaepple_shoes' part. Please read Pranzor's post below for the detailed explanation of the system.
    Last edited by TEC_Ghuan; 05-16-2019, 08:18 AM.

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  • pineapple_shoes
    replied
    Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post

    Could you clarify this particular paragraph? The way I see it, based on what Siddhe has written above is that no matter what happens you will retain your base stat.

    Think of it this way: You have your base stat and your actual stat. Your base stat is your 0-200 number before traits are calculated. Your actual is your base stat + % bonus that the trait gives. Being given the ability to swap traits around would -never- impact your base stat. It would only make your 'actual stat' fluctuate. Say you have 240 dexterity as an actual stat. You swap out finesse + steady hands for Ox's grace and Berserker. You then end up with an actual dexterity base stat of 200 - % bonus of Ox's grace and you end up somewhere around 185. You just went from 240 to 185. You don't get to keep it at 240. You already reached your cap of 200, so you won't be able to overtrain the 185 and take it back to 200.

    This is how I understand the proposed scenario. Knowing this, I don't see any potential for issues to arise. All it does is allow the player to try different combos and see what works best with his character.

    That's the one thing I don't understand from your post when you say 'If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales...'

    Thanks!
    As it is, some people have stats that allow them to go beyond the threshold of 200 all the way up to 240. However, in order to reach 240 you had to spend 4,000 rolepoints to be able to satisfy that potential. If a player were to remove the traits that allowed them to move beyond the 200 point threshold, I think they should have the option to retrieve their RPS spent and thus also have the threshold removed. The functioning point being that I will have spent 4k on stats that can no longer go as far as they used to. I'm not losing anything that I don't expect to lose, but it'd be great to be able to get a refund or redistribution of those stat points.

    I would compare it similarly to when major skill changes have happened. I know when the swords change happened that separated styles and the ability to jump between them dropped, while some were upset by the friction of changing their combat style, most people were upset for a long time about having lost thousands of SP and hours as a result of now having to unlearn/untrain at a reduced cost and skill "buybacks" weren't offered. Most people would have agreed at the time that swords was too strong, but then losing other stuff seems like an affront to the player. My request is that, for at least a limited time if not permanently, there's a stat refund/redistribution option for stats that went above the 200 threshold as a result of stats that are lost as a result of stat-reroll-changes.

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  • Dewdropdoodles
    replied
    Lantraste, that's still not addressing the question I have, so perhaps I'm not specifying it well. I'll just leave it for now.


    Originally posted by Ariden View Post
    The problem that I can see are people being so eager to get out of bad traits that they jump the gun and get into another set of bad traits, which effectively wastes that free @re-trait. Then you are looking at thousands of RPs to change something about your character, that can be altered through time.
    I think that traits should be something that you should have to think about carefully anyway. I guess this just depends on how traits are going to be viewed as a whole though. Are they something that should be part of your character, or just essentially something that can be changed at will?

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  • TEC_Ghuan
    replied
    Originally posted by pineapple_shoes View Post
    Overall I like the ideas behind the change but I want to parrot a few of the already suggested concerns. If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales, it just creates a new level of min-maxing and skews the "competition" heavily in favor of those who have RP's to burn. Considering the ability to purchase StP, this can very well serve as a "pay to win" function. I believe the cost should be high (7-8,000 RPS or so) so as it serves as an option for characters, but with the major expectation being that the traits you select at the gen are the traits you carry for the life of the character. I know if this option was presented to me right now I would, without hesitation, begin banking RPs to make it happen and so it serves as an option to give players choice and agency.
    Could you clarify this particular paragraph? The way I see it, based on what Siddhe has written above is that no matter what happens you will retain your base stat.

    Think of it this way: You have your base stat and your actual stat. Your base stat is your 0-200 number before traits are calculated. Your actual is your base stat + % bonus that the trait gives. Being given the ability to swap traits around would -never- impact your base stat. It would only make your 'actual stat' fluctuate. Say you have 240 dexterity as an actual stat. You swap out finesse + steady hands for Ox's grace and Berserker. You then end up with an actual dexterity base stat of 200 - % bonus of Ox's grace and you end up somewhere around 185. You just went from 240 to 185. You don't get to keep it at 240. You already reached your cap of 200, so you won't be able to overtrain the 185 and take it back to 200.

    This is how I understand the proposed scenario. Knowing this, I don't see any potential for issues to arise. All it does is allow the player to try different combos and see what works best with his character.

    That's the one thing I don't understand from your post when you say 'If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales...'

    Thanks!
    Last edited by TEC_Ghuan; 05-16-2019, 08:19 AM.

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  • Ariden
    replied
    I like pretty much what everyone said so far with one exception. The cost to respec should be what was suggested: free, 1k, 3k. 5k. I understand that there are a lot of players that are willing to blow RPs to min/max their setup and that's fine. The problem that I can see are people being so eager to get out of bad traits that they jump the gun and get into another set of bad traits, which effectively wastes that free @re-trait. Then you are looking at thousands of RPs to change something about your character, that can be altered through time. Anyone remember when superstitious fears was a good pick? For people that don't have the benefit of being premium or bps 3k is an unusually high amount.

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  • Lantraste
    replied
    If you have steady hands and finesse right now and maxed out your dexterity your base would still be 200 just like those who maxed the stat before. The 20% modifier from those two traits would make your effective dexterity 240. It'd just go back to 200 if those traits were removed unless something buggy happened. You'd see the word level change the same way you see the word level change when laying down from a standing position.

    The changes made nearly two years ago were to the order of operations for stat calculations. The game imposed a hard cap of 200 no matter what and the 'stats' listing reflected only base stats and not modifiers. In the above scenario you would see a word level equivalent to 166 but your effective stat would be 200. When the changes were made it allowed the player to buy another 34 points worth of stat increases to bump their base stat from the previous 166 to the standard 200. This resulted in the training courses being haunted by a few "maxed" characters for a few days and a horrible balance issue ever since.

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  • Dewdropdoodles
    replied
    Originally posted by Lantraste View Post

    Traits currently apply a percentage bonus to your stat levels. That's why it's only taking 8 course completions to go up a word level in dexterity for those with steady hands and finesse. I'm sure it'll work just like it does now, where you take a 50% hit to speed on your stat sheet for being prone for example. Hope this helps.
    Right, I get that. I just mean how will changing traits affect the stats that we already have? If you get rid of a trait that increased your dexterity, and never upgraded past the initial level, will it decrease your word level? What if you DID upgrade past that? How will that change what you've already done? etc

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  • pineapple_shoes
    replied
    There's several challenges I see within the proposed system. For one, I believe the re-roll should be mandatory. You may potentially choose all of the same options, but without that safeguard it raises questions of equity/fairness across characters that mandating a re-roll seems to just solve. That way it also can't be used as a free-RP expenditure down the road when you've outpaced the stats you currently have and want to reset it.

    Overall I like the ideas behind the change but I want to parrot a few of the already suggested concerns. If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales, it just creates a new level of min-maxing and skews the "competition" heavily in favor of those who have RP's to burn. Considering the ability to purchase StP, this can very well serve as a "pay to win" function. I believe the cost should be high (7-8,000 RPS or so) so as it serves as an option for characters, but with the major expectation being that the traits you select at the gen are the traits you carry for the life of the character. I know if this option was presented to me right now I would, without hesitation, begin banking RPs to make it happen and so it serves as an option to give players choice and agency.

    To facilitate the idea of options, there should be perhaps a "cheaper" option that allows players to swap one trait for another. As Elowynn mentioned however, this can have a cascading effect on other things so perhaps this option requires some GM interaction.

    As well, In the immediate I believe it would be beneficial to offer some sort of "Refund" for stat overages that may happen. In the long run perhaps those things get lost but in the last nearly 20 years since traits were implemented, traits and stats have undergone drastic changes and with new options, it would make sense for people to want to change or otherwise customize their character/build. It would go a long way with the player base to know that someone who had a trait that granted +(x) to a stat that they then traded away, can be considered for a refund if that stat then falls below that threshold. While I realize this creates more work for the GM staff, the important elements in an overhaul like this is continued support and collaboration with the playerbase as well.

    I also want to echo the request of Lantraste and others in saying that more transparency of the traits would be desirable.

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  • Travius
    replied
    If this is the path forward, I believe the GMs should deal with players on a case by case basis and make sure they are evenly awarded.

    I think of Gydon as a recent situation. I know the only reason Gydon was chopped was because of traits.

    There are alot of us in that type of situation and we were under the impression that stats and traits would never EVER be able to be rerolled and therefor we chopped.

    I invest myself in the training of a character and this would be a real kick in the nuts for listening to the rules and adapting with them by creating new character.

    By evenly awarded, I mean a distribution of SP and RP based on characters that were chopped due to stats.
    Last edited by Travius; 05-15-2019, 09:05 AM. Reason: added RP to final line

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  • Lantraste
    replied
    Originally posted by Dewdropdoodles View Post

    As others have said, it would be nice to have some more details as well. How will this affect stats that we already have? Will it only affect maxed out stats? Starting stats? Stats that go over the threshold? etc I'm interested to see more conversation about this.
    Traits currently apply a percentage bonus to your stat levels. That's why it's only taking 8 course completions to go up a word level in dexterity for those with steady hands and finesse. I'm sure it'll work just like it does now, where you take a 50% hit to speed on your stat sheet for being prone for example. Hope this helps.

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  • TEC_Ghuan
    replied
    Originally posted by Dewdropdoodles View Post
    I disagree entirely about being able to switch at any time. I'd have to agree with Lantraste and Elowynn, the cost should be relatively high, and/or (preferably and unless the cost is high enough) a cool down feature where you can only swap after so much time. Traits are something that I see as something that should be mostly permanent to your character and many have ramifications to roleplay. It doesn't make sense in a roleplaying game for that to be regularly changing.

    Additionally, there's already an imbalance towards old account in regards to rp gain, given the number of BPs that used to be given out vs. those given out in more recent times. Having a low cost allows for some people to more easily change traits at will (ie: this is my beginning trait set, this is mid tier, this is endgame, etc etc). I don't mind the scaling up per use, but it should still be relatively high to begin with. In theory, I like Lantraste's idea of only being able to change once, however, I think if traits are going to be tweaked/adjusted more going forward, then the ability to swap should still remain. Or perhaps after 1 complete change, you have to change traits 1 at a time, which can then have a lower rp cost (and perhaps still have a cooldown period until you can do it again).
    I suppose I should have clarified. With a RP cost more aligned with the 2k-3k range and the time it takes to actually earn those RPs, it made sense in my mind to write 'at any time'. We shouldn't base any of the RP purchases on people who are able to earn 10 RPs per hour on premium because of all those Bonus Points they earned back in the days for simply attending events. Or people who spend insane amounts of time playing the game. If anything, the Bonus Point system should just be scrapped altogether to further balance out RP purchases, but that's an entirely different topic. :P

    I'd also be in favor of a 2-3 months cooldown or something similar without further increases in RP costs instead of it becoming a one-time RP option.

    Thanks for helping me clarify my stance!

    Btw, I love discussions like these.

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  • Dewdropdoodles
    replied
    First, let me say this is the type of communication that is a huge step in the right direction from the staff. The ability to give feedback about potential big changes BEFORE they happen is great for making the playerbase feel like they are heard. Thank you!

    Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post

    I like the idea of being to swap at any time. It allows you to try out different things and make your build the way you really want it to. It being super expensive isn't ideal. Allowing us to change frequently and try things out is really a welcomed change, in my mind. 5k-10k as proposed by Elowynn is also way too high. Most games these days allow us to easily re-spec our characters at very little cost. You still won't be able to do that in TEC, but you will be able to tweak your build via traits. How would it be unbalanced for people to switch traits frequently? If the traits themselves are balanced, there are no issues that I can see. Self-taught is the only possible one, but even then it is minimal due to RB diminishing gains.
    I disagree entirely about being able to switch at any time. I'd have to agree with Lantraste and Elowynn, the cost should be relatively high, and/or (preferably and unless the cost is high enough) a cool down feature where you can only swap after so much time. Traits are something that I see as something that should be mostly permanent to your character and many have ramifications to roleplay. It doesn't make sense in a roleplaying game for that to be regularly changing.

    Additionally, there's already an imbalance towards old account in regards to rp gain, given the number of BPs that used to be given out vs. those given out in more recent times. Having a low cost allows for some people to more easily change traits at will (ie: this is my beginning trait set, this is mid tier, this is endgame, etc etc). I don't mind the scaling up per use, but it should still be relatively high to begin with. In theory, I like Lantraste's idea of only being able to change once, however, I think if traits are going to be tweaked/adjusted more going forward, then the ability to swap should still remain. Or perhaps after 1 complete change, you have to change traits 1 at a time, which can then have a lower rp cost (and perhaps still have a cooldown period until you can do it again).

    As others have said, it would be nice to have some more details as well. How will this affect stats that we already have? Will it only affect maxed out stats? Starting stats? Stats that go over the threshold? etc I'm interested to see more conversation about this.

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  • TEC_Ghuan
    replied
    Originally posted by Lantraste View Post
    Can we expect some level of transparency on what does what? For example, Nimble Feet currently gives a 5% advantage to speed and agility. It'd be real nice of you guys to be very transparent on information like that since the vocal majority you're trying to please will be mostly comprised of the folks who weigh these things during a character build.

    I also believe the cost to swap traits should be prohibitively expensive to discourage people gaming the system. If it's only 1000 rps I'm going to pick up things like self-taught and endurance modifiers early on then straight stat modifiers once a certain rank level is reached. Making swapping a one time only thing would be preferred.
    I'd like that level of transparency as well. Not only for traits, but for the various choices that can be picked through the character generator. Being able to make a build should be a far better experience than it currently is. Having to spend years upon years to learn things is not ideal for new player retention. Allow them to make a smart and informed choice early on.

    I also thought about self-taught being a potential issue, but is it really? You will be able to learn ranks quicker, but while you are running the self-taught skill you won't have those stats advantages or some of the other advantages (like faster recovery, fatigue recovery, etc.). And with the current Rank Bonus and Stats mechanics, self-taught isn't the game changer it once was.

    I like the idea of being to swap at any time. It allows you to try out different things and make your build the way you really want it to. It being super expensive isn't ideal. Allowing us to change frequently and try things out is really a welcomed change, in my mind. 5k-10k as proposed by Elowynn is also way too high. Most games these days allow us to easily re-spec our characters at very little cost. You still won't be able to do that in TEC, but you will be able to tweak your build via traits. How would it be unbalanced for people to switch traits frequently? If the traits themselves are balanced, there are no issues that I can see. Self-taught is the only possible one, but even then it is minimal due to RB diminishing gains.

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  • Lantraste
    replied
    Can we expect some level of transparency on what does what? For example, Nimble Feet currently gives a 5% advantage to speed and agility. It'd be real nice of you guys to be very transparent on information like that since the vocal majority you're trying to please will be mostly comprised of the folks who weigh these things during a character build.

    I also believe the cost to swap traits should be prohibitively expensive to discourage people gaming the system. If it's only 1000 rps I'm going to pick up things like self-taught and endurance modifiers early on then straight stat modifiers once a certain rank level is reached. Making swapping a one time only thing would be preferred.

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