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  • Character Traits System Proposal

    After significant back and forth, we're ready to share the updated traits system framework proposal. Your constructive feedback is welcome and encouraged. Once players have had time to share their feedback, and staff has had the opportunity to review it and incorporate where appropriate, we'll be back with a more detailed version of the framework, including traits.
    1. Traits themselves will get attention. The under-utilized traits will get particular attention to make them more interesting/viable. New traits will be added.
    2. National trait offerings will be expanded. They will not be stat-related, and as they will have no point value, everyone can select one (possibly more) for free.
    3. The amount of traits you can have at once will be increased. As an example, you may be able to select up to four positives, a neutral, and up to four negatives (depending on overall point value).
    4. Everyone will receive a free, one-time use of @new-traits. This will be optional.
    5. You will be able to re-trait a character at any time, through RP- or StP-spend. These costs will scale depending on the number of times used. As an example your first paid @new-traits use might be 1k RPs, then 3k RPs, etc. Final numbers TBD.



  • #2
    #4 and #5 You have 100 percent made me personally happy and given everyone a level playing field Bravo
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

    Comment


    • #3
      I'd first like to start off by saying I like this. I'm more interested to know if we @new-traits how it'll effect our current stats, and if we'd have the ability to see how it effects our stats before we choose to accept or deny the new traits.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is great. I too would like to see some type of echo or menu before accepting the change. This is an awesome step in the right direction. You have the potential to bring people long gone back with this. Bravo.
        Originally posted by Arconn9
        First time I used Sabinus today, since my old main got Cuttongued. So was the IC event for his change; was it him getting hit in the head repeatedly by someone? Because I think he's a retard now.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
          After significant back and forth, we're ready to share the updated traits system framework proposal. Your constructive feedback is welcome and encouraged. Once players have had time to share their feedback, and staff has had the opportunity to review it and incorporate where appropriate, we'll be back with a more detailed version of the framework, including traits.
          1. Traits themselves will get attention. The under-utilized traits will get particular attention to make them more interesting/viable. New traits will be added.
          2. National trait offerings will be expanded. They will not be stat-related, and as they will have no point value, everyone can select one (possibly more) for free.
          3. The amount of traits you can have at once will be increased. As an example, you may be able to select up to four positives, a neutral, and up to four negatives (depending on overall point value).
          4. Everyone will receive a free, one-time use of @new-traits. This will be optional.
          5. You will be able to re-trait a character at any time, through RP- or StP-spend. These costs will scale depending on the number of times used. As an example your first paid @new-traits use might be 1k RPs, then 3k RPs, etc. Final numbers TBD.

          #1: When you say that new traits will be added, will these include the ability to modify all of the stats equally as we see fit? For example, we have finesse + steady hands which give a big boost to dexterity, but we only have Ox's grace that gives a bonus to strength. Will a new trait be added to boost strength further on par with those two stacks? Will it be even across the board, allowing us even more freedom in manipulating our bonuses?

          #2: This is a tricky one because no matter what is done, some nations may be perceived as the better choices and others may be neglected due to mechanical benefits -if- the traits are exclusive to a certain nation. Would it make sense to rework National Traits into something else? Like an Innate Trait category where you could choose one free trait that is not exclusive to a nation and could help you specifically to your chosen profession (gladiator, soldier, crafter, trader, etc.)? As an example, the Aestivan's Natural Builder trait could fit in that category, but would no longer be a national trait. It would be a trait that could help you in your Tailoring endeavors since they are crafted items. Innate ability to craft things. Just an idea.

          #3: This will open up more avenues for defining your character and I love it. It will likely become even more interesting with the addition and fine-tuning of traits. Will the National Traits be counted toward this total?

          #4: This is great. This is exactly what everyone has asked for when it comes to traits.

          #5: In regards to the Illiterate trait, would it make sense for someone to suddenly become illiterate after years of being able to read/write? I could see this trait being removed (it makes sense to be able to learn how to read/write), but I couldn't see it being added for a character who has already shown those abilities.

          Once again, thanks for reaching out to the players both for their feedback and for the heads up. This is, hopefully, the way things will always be done going forward. Thanks Siddhe!

          Comment


          • #6
            questions: when you say no point value, and then later say up to four positives... do the national traits count against those four?
            What's the plan for people who have maximized their stats with role points, and course work, or story points, and then change traits so that maybe now they have a bonus to dex instead of a bonus to agility... do they keep the over 200 agility, and can now get over 200 dex on top of that? What about the old characters who have 200 everything, and then change traits to pick up a bonus, do they lose stats that they paid for, or do they keep them? How about if they don't change traits, do they get to keep stats they don't qualify for, but paid for?

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            • #7
              This peek into the GMs' thoughts so far into the traits rehaul is super encouraging. This collaborative method might take longer, spur both useless and not so useless discussion, and the eventual finalized plans will probably not satisfy absolutely everyone, but I'm stoked to see the door to communication cracking open. Kudos.

              1) How will stats be affected by trait rerolls? What happens to someone with 215 dex when they lose Steady Hands? What happens to someone with 165 dex when they lose Steady Hands? Does overage go inert? Does overage get the RPS spend refunded?

              This could open up a whole mess. I assume, I very much hope that: sub-200 stats are not affected when a stat affecting trait is removed, because (my hope is) that stats are solidified upon character roll, and not artificially boosted by traits. GMs, is this the case? If not, how will this be addressed?

              Suggestions:
              a) Removing traits should not affect sub-200 stats.
              b) Overage goes inert when a trait raising max to over 200 is removed.
              c) Overage does not get refunded in rps, because it can be re-activated if the trait returns.

              2) Traits inherently are meant to solidify a character's personality, with some permanence. For folks' personalities to change overnight is going to be... odd. The onus will have to be on each player to RP this, successfully or not, on their own. However, I feel that there should still be mechanical restrictions on switching out traits willy nilly.

              Suggestions:
              a) I agree that the first reroll should indeed be free to, so that the playing field is accessible to everyone.
              b) I would prefer traits be swapped one at a time, to more "organically" reflect characters' slow personality changes. I realize this is difficult, as sometimes swapping a trait has a cascading effect (for example, trading Mountain Lungs for Athletic leaves an extra point, which the player will want to utilize.)
              c) Trait rerolls after that should be far more expensive than 1000. I think 5000, or even 10000 is far more suitable. Changing a character's whole build should be a -big deal-. By charging a lot, folks would be rightfully discouraged from "casually" changing their characters' personality just for minmaxing purposes. If costs a lot, it needs to be done carefully and with much prep. The bad downhill effect of traits being cheap to reroll is that someone like me (a powergaming minmaxer), well, I'm gonna take Self Train every time it's convenient to me, and swap out Illiterate only when I'm in constable recruitment (or whatever, just an example) ain't in session. That's...weird, bad gaming of the system.
              d) I suggest a cooldown period between rerolls and trait swaps. Perhaps 1 IG year. Perhaps 1 IRL year. Thoughts, folks?

              The discussion is interesting. I look forward to checking back for more folks' input, and GMs' eventual finalization of a plan. Overall, looks promising. Cheers all around, folks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Maybe I am on the other side on this one.

                Do you know how many characters I deleted and how many time I started over because I have been told over and over that this will NEVER happen?

                Also, powergamers rejoice, you now will NEVER be caught, giving me little to no incentive to continue.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Can we expect some level of transparency on what does what? For example, Nimble Feet currently gives a 5% advantage to speed and agility. It'd be real nice of you guys to be very transparent on information like that since the vocal majority you're trying to please will be mostly comprised of the folks who weigh these things during a character build.

                  I also believe the cost to swap traits should be prohibitively expensive to discourage people gaming the system. If it's only 1000 rps I'm going to pick up things like self-taught and endurance modifiers early on then straight stat modifiers once a certain rank level is reached. Making swapping a one time only thing would be preferred.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lantraste View Post
                    Can we expect some level of transparency on what does what? For example, Nimble Feet currently gives a 5% advantage to speed and agility. It'd be real nice of you guys to be very transparent on information like that since the vocal majority you're trying to please will be mostly comprised of the folks who weigh these things during a character build.

                    I also believe the cost to swap traits should be prohibitively expensive to discourage people gaming the system. If it's only 1000 rps I'm going to pick up things like self-taught and endurance modifiers early on then straight stat modifiers once a certain rank level is reached. Making swapping a one time only thing would be preferred.
                    I'd like that level of transparency as well. Not only for traits, but for the various choices that can be picked through the character generator. Being able to make a build should be a far better experience than it currently is. Having to spend years upon years to learn things is not ideal for new player retention. Allow them to make a smart and informed choice early on.

                    I also thought about self-taught being a potential issue, but is it really? You will be able to learn ranks quicker, but while you are running the self-taught skill you won't have those stats advantages or some of the other advantages (like faster recovery, fatigue recovery, etc.). And with the current Rank Bonus and Stats mechanics, self-taught isn't the game changer it once was.

                    I like the idea of being to swap at any time. It allows you to try out different things and make your build the way you really want it to. It being super expensive isn't ideal. Allowing us to change frequently and try things out is really a welcomed change, in my mind. 5k-10k as proposed by Elowynn is also way too high. Most games these days allow us to easily re-spec our characters at very little cost. You still won't be able to do that in TEC, but you will be able to tweak your build via traits. How would it be unbalanced for people to switch traits frequently? If the traits themselves are balanced, there are no issues that I can see. Self-taught is the only possible one, but even then it is minimal due to RB diminishing gains.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      First, let me say this is the type of communication that is a huge step in the right direction from the staff. The ability to give feedback about potential big changes BEFORE they happen is great for making the playerbase feel like they are heard. Thank you!

                      Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post

                      I like the idea of being to swap at any time. It allows you to try out different things and make your build the way you really want it to. It being super expensive isn't ideal. Allowing us to change frequently and try things out is really a welcomed change, in my mind. 5k-10k as proposed by Elowynn is also way too high. Most games these days allow us to easily re-spec our characters at very little cost. You still won't be able to do that in TEC, but you will be able to tweak your build via traits. How would it be unbalanced for people to switch traits frequently? If the traits themselves are balanced, there are no issues that I can see. Self-taught is the only possible one, but even then it is minimal due to RB diminishing gains.
                      I disagree entirely about being able to switch at any time. I'd have to agree with Lantraste and Elowynn, the cost should be relatively high, and/or (preferably and unless the cost is high enough) a cool down feature where you can only swap after so much time. Traits are something that I see as something that should be mostly permanent to your character and many have ramifications to roleplay. It doesn't make sense in a roleplaying game for that to be regularly changing.

                      Additionally, there's already an imbalance towards old account in regards to rp gain, given the number of BPs that used to be given out vs. those given out in more recent times. Having a low cost allows for some people to more easily change traits at will (ie: this is my beginning trait set, this is mid tier, this is endgame, etc etc). I don't mind the scaling up per use, but it should still be relatively high to begin with. In theory, I like Lantraste's idea of only being able to change once, however, I think if traits are going to be tweaked/adjusted more going forward, then the ability to swap should still remain. Or perhaps after 1 complete change, you have to change traits 1 at a time, which can then have a lower rp cost (and perhaps still have a cooldown period until you can do it again).

                      As others have said, it would be nice to have some more details as well. How will this affect stats that we already have? Will it only affect maxed out stats? Starting stats? Stats that go over the threshold? etc I'm interested to see more conversation about this.
                      Originally posted by Atilu
                      You'd probably be happier if you just didn't come to the forums.
                      Nicarus says to you, "Ya should shadow me an' keep track o' things. We can call it tha Dew-y number-ic system or somethin'.... have to work on that"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dewdropdoodles View Post
                        I disagree entirely about being able to switch at any time. I'd have to agree with Lantraste and Elowynn, the cost should be relatively high, and/or (preferably and unless the cost is high enough) a cool down feature where you can only swap after so much time. Traits are something that I see as something that should be mostly permanent to your character and many have ramifications to roleplay. It doesn't make sense in a roleplaying game for that to be regularly changing.

                        Additionally, there's already an imbalance towards old account in regards to rp gain, given the number of BPs that used to be given out vs. those given out in more recent times. Having a low cost allows for some people to more easily change traits at will (ie: this is my beginning trait set, this is mid tier, this is endgame, etc etc). I don't mind the scaling up per use, but it should still be relatively high to begin with. In theory, I like Lantraste's idea of only being able to change once, however, I think if traits are going to be tweaked/adjusted more going forward, then the ability to swap should still remain. Or perhaps after 1 complete change, you have to change traits 1 at a time, which can then have a lower rp cost (and perhaps still have a cooldown period until you can do it again).
                        I suppose I should have clarified. With a RP cost more aligned with the 2k-3k range and the time it takes to actually earn those RPs, it made sense in my mind to write 'at any time'. We shouldn't base any of the RP purchases on people who are able to earn 10 RPs per hour on premium because of all those Bonus Points they earned back in the days for simply attending events. Or people who spend insane amounts of time playing the game. If anything, the Bonus Point system should just be scrapped altogether to further balance out RP purchases, but that's an entirely different topic. :P

                        I'd also be in favor of a 2-3 months cooldown or something similar without further increases in RP costs instead of it becoming a one-time RP option.

                        Thanks for helping me clarify my stance!

                        Btw, I love discussions like these.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dewdropdoodles View Post

                          As others have said, it would be nice to have some more details as well. How will this affect stats that we already have? Will it only affect maxed out stats? Starting stats? Stats that go over the threshold? etc I'm interested to see more conversation about this.
                          Traits currently apply a percentage bonus to your stat levels. That's why it's only taking 8 course completions to go up a word level in dexterity for those with steady hands and finesse. I'm sure it'll work just like it does now, where you take a 50% hit to speed on your stat sheet for being prone for example. Hope this helps.

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                          • #14
                            If this is the path forward, I believe the GMs should deal with players on a case by case basis and make sure they are evenly awarded.

                            I think of Gydon as a recent situation. I know the only reason Gydon was chopped was because of traits.

                            There are alot of us in that type of situation and we were under the impression that stats and traits would never EVER be able to be rerolled and therefor we chopped.

                            I invest myself in the training of a character and this would be a real kick in the nuts for listening to the rules and adapting with them by creating new character.

                            By evenly awarded, I mean a distribution of SP and RP based on characters that were chopped due to stats.
                            Last edited by Travius; 05-15-2019, 09:05 AM. Reason: added RP to final line

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                            • #15
                              There's several challenges I see within the proposed system. For one, I believe the re-roll should be mandatory. You may potentially choose all of the same options, but without that safeguard it raises questions of equity/fairness across characters that mandating a re-roll seems to just solve. That way it also can't be used as a free-RP expenditure down the road when you've outpaced the stats you currently have and want to reset it.

                              Overall I like the ideas behind the change but I want to parrot a few of the already suggested concerns. If the cost for rerolling ALL stats starts low and scales, it just creates a new level of min-maxing and skews the "competition" heavily in favor of those who have RP's to burn. Considering the ability to purchase StP, this can very well serve as a "pay to win" function. I believe the cost should be high (7-8,000 RPS or so) so as it serves as an option for characters, but with the major expectation being that the traits you select at the gen are the traits you carry for the life of the character. I know if this option was presented to me right now I would, without hesitation, begin banking RPs to make it happen and so it serves as an option to give players choice and agency.

                              To facilitate the idea of options, there should be perhaps a "cheaper" option that allows players to swap one trait for another. As Elowynn mentioned however, this can have a cascading effect on other things so perhaps this option requires some GM interaction.

                              As well, In the immediate I believe it would be beneficial to offer some sort of "Refund" for stat overages that may happen. In the long run perhaps those things get lost but in the last nearly 20 years since traits were implemented, traits and stats have undergone drastic changes and with new options, it would make sense for people to want to change or otherwise customize their character/build. It would go a long way with the player base to know that someone who had a trait that granted +(x) to a stat that they then traded away, can be considered for a refund if that stat then falls below that threshold. While I realize this creates more work for the GM staff, the important elements in an overhaul like this is continued support and collaboration with the playerbase as well.

                              I also want to echo the request of Lantraste and others in saying that more transparency of the traits would be desirable.

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