No Refund Policy = Unhappy Players

[Kazuto]

Sceadu responds from afar, "The game evolves and has evolved many times. People learn how to game the system and create balance issues that we have to correct. We cannot "refund" every time the game must evolve or it will be a never-ending process and there is no accurate way to even track that kind of stuff. I know this is not the answer you want to hear, but players must learn to evolve as just as the game must."

Honestly don't understand this part of the explanation. If this was beta or free to play I would understand, but its not and people have spent a lot of time and money on what they've worked on. GMs can compensate players every time they make an mechanics change with either RP/items and/or a refund and I don't see how doing so will create a never-ending process.

Whenever something that requires a refund don't do it for that one player personally, but do it for everyone. Accidentally sold your shield? Buy it back from the NPC now. Bought the wrong item? Return it to the NPC. Changes made to combat? Compensate everyone with RP or Full return "Unlearn".

Combat is getting a major overhaul recently, change the unlearn command to return full SP for everyone and anyone? So they'll get a lot of SP to raise skills again to find more holes in the mechanics isn't this better than the holes being found a few years down the road where we need another major overhaul causing players to cry out?

A few weeks back shop keepers had a ninja update where you no longer get to pick the quality of item you're buying, and half dozen or so people including myself bought average quality items. I don't see how this would create a never-ending process if you'll post "People who recently bought items will be refunded and hereinafter will not be refunded anymore". The thing that really made me mad is if I had just @proclaimed and caught a GM in a good mood I might've gotten a refund with no problem.

Keeping the players happy will be more important than just fixing things while leaving them with a bitter taste in their mouth. Everyone's enjoying the combat changes, but certain players are left out to dry. Gladii getting nerfed while cestus gets a boost will balance the game out, but its obvious the players will feel cheated. Change the unlearn command/slap a 100-500 RP gift to all players to keep them happy.

Character Generator/Traits will probably be overhauled sooner or later? I suggest allowing players to swap traits when this happens.

As for the players who's happy with their current situation just hope nothing changes that's not in your favor.

Well, this is just my two cent, and I haven't really been around ever since the shop keeper thing, and with all the recent changes I don't think I'll come back until things settle down or if the GMs plan on refunding people for changes. Honestly feel sorry for the players that's not only put in time/effort/money to achieve something just to get it stripped away with a few changes.

[jkidd]

Character Generator/Traits will probably be overhauled sooner or later? I suggest allowing players to swap traits when this happens.

This is a huge concern. Traits/stats get changed and everyone gets told to evolve again. Look, I and many others have invested a lot of cash. Not hundreds...THOUSANDS. For me personally: over one-THOUSAND dollars paying premium from 2009 to present. I paid premium from 2001-2005 off and on. I've invested a lot of money into my characters and to get porked over is a huge FU.

The Glads, inflexible, no refund policy, was the most negligent and grossly irreparable policy the GM's let occur. I agreed, the entire playerbase agreed, with the NEED to revamp combat, especially buffing weapons like Tridents and Cestii while nerfing the gladius. They have been great changes and they're ongoing. Awesome. Bout friggin time.

However, the changes completely disabled my characters ability to use two skillsets (Avros and Pardelian). It was not a "nerf" it was a complete mechanics change. Moreover, my character cannot evolve to be able to use those skillsets. <redacted...i dont need to result to name calling etc>. One year+ of hard-earned SP was shot to the breeze. The staff has never engaged in a conversation explaining why(one proclaim after it's been relayed to the playerbase doesn't count as a conversation). There was never a hint of compassion shown. I think the staff lost a lot of respect from the playerbase. Whatever.

Disclaimer: WEAPON nerfs are not a valid reason for an SP refund. MECHANICAL/FUNCTIONAL changes that disable skillsets/stats/traits SHOULD BE VALID REASONS. IMFO.

TL;DR. I honestly don't give two @$@#'s about how this post looks. Carry on.

[zeldaiscool]

unlearning no longer gives back any sp ? or are you both really upset over loosing a few sp each rank?

[zeldaiscool]

However, the changes completely disabled my characters ability to use two skillsets (Avros and Pardelian). It was not a "nerf" it was a complete mechanics change. Moreover, my character cannot evolve to be able to use those skillsets. Sceadu deserves a big #%! YOU. Honestly that's what he deserves. One year+ of hard-earned SP was shot to the breeze. You never engaged in a conversation explaining why(one proclaim after it's been relayed to the playerbase doesn't count as a conversation). You never showed a hint of compassion. You lost a lot of respect from the playerbase. Whatever.

Unless I completely missunderstood the changes you can still use it, just not all at the same time I believe. Need to use different shields.

[jkidd]

unlearning no longer gives back any sp ? or are you both really upset over loosing a few sp each rank?

I was selftraining Pardelian in 7th slot 11/13/15/17 per rank. I understand no way to compensate for selftraining, i'm cool with that. But then you factor in unlearning gets you half and rounded down. So Shield Sap, for example, I selftrained several ranks spent 30 sp per rank, got back 7 sp per rank. Avros and Pardelian sp = easily over 10k sp shot to #@@3.

Would you be fine with losing 10k combat sp on your character?

[jkidd]

Unless I completely missunderstood the changes you can still use it, just not all at the same time I believe. Need to use different shields.

Again, no one is going to carry around 3 shields. the secondary stances became a novelty. No IC reason to fight someone/thing with a secondary skillset = novelty.

MP says it best:

I agree to an extent, but this change isn't causing people to relearn the new 'power weapon'. A gladius with any one of the styles is still probably the three best weapons. This is allowing people to reuse the SP they have already worked hard to get. Is it possible to still use all three? Sure. Is it in any way interesting, effective, fun, or does it even make sense? No.

So why not just give them a ballpark refund? It really hurts no one.

Sceadu's comment about having to give refunds every time the game evolves is also nonsensical. Acting like we are getting major combat overhauls every few weeks, months, or even every few years is obviously just not true and shouldn't be the basis of his argument.

[Ilkilyn]

I was selftraining Pardelian in 7th slot 11/13/15/17 per rank. I understand no way to compensate for selftraining, i'm cool with that. But then you factor in unlearning gets you half and rounded down. So Shield Sap for example I selftrained several ranks spent 30 sp per rank, got back 7 sp per rank. Avros and Pardelian sp = easily over 10k sp shot to #@@3.

But you get like 2500 back to drop into recovery and the new BRR

[zeldaiscool]

I can see how that's frustrating but even at full sp that would I think be 15 total so say 8 sp per rank you unlearned I guess is the loss for the slot you are saying you had it in and for an impossible move.

Somehow I dont think the major frustration with people is the actual sp refund, its more likely the fact that the power moves from each skillset can no longer be rotated.

How much actual sp loss did you loose on your character choosing to unlearn those skillsets which you can still use, just not at the same time. Something makes me think that at an actual sp refund rate (which has never ever been selftraining refund) its probably going to add up to 3 months of cycles.

[jkidd]

I can see how that's frustrating but even at full sp that would I think be 15 total so say 8 sp per rank you unlearned I guess is the loss for the slot you are saying you had it in and for an impossible move.

Somehow I dont think the major frustration with people is the actual sp refund, its more likely the fact that the power moves from each skillset can no longer be rotated.

How much actual sp loss did you loose on your character choosing to unlearn those skillsets which you can still use, just not at the same time. Something makes me think that at an actual sp refund rate (which has never ever been selftraining refund) its probably going to add up to 3 months of cycles.

I couldn't care less about losing the moves for the sake of balance. I just want to use the SP I earned on something else.

I got over 7.5k sp at rounded down rates after unlearning. I would've gotten approximately an additional 8k sp if there was an actual refund. 8k sp is a lot.

Since trying to talk to Sceadu didn't work I sent an email to Shannon. It probably just reads nonsensical jibberish to him explaining SP/RPs/OHS etc. Traditional communication methods failed me though. Grasping at straws.

[zeldaiscool]

So to put it a different way that is very similar. If a character knows say whips, knives, and tridents. If trident takes a nerf and the person decides its no longer practice to use because of the nerf so its a waste carrying a 4 pound trident.

Do you feel that the gms should do a refund?

Because the reality of it thought hard to aggree with is, those sword skillsets you learned can still be used at any time you want, you just have to either A carry another shield on you, or B decide today I will use avros, or nelsor so I will take this shield.

Just playing devils advocate mostly here, but you have to understand that the two examples really are exactly the same.

[jkidd]

So to put it a different way that is very similar. If a character knows say whips, knives, and tridents. If trident takes a nerf and the person decides its no longer practice to use because of the nerf so its a waste carrying a 4 pound trident.

Do you feel that the gms should do a refund?

Because the reality of it thought hard to aggree with is, those sword skillsets you learned can still be used at any time you want, you just have to either A carry another shield on you, or B decide today I will use avros, or nelsor so I will take this shield.

Just playing devils advocate mostly here, but you have to understand that the two examples really are exactly the same.

No, it's not the same at all. You could never use tridents, whips and knives together. They're separate weapons. If you could use tridents, whips and knives together and one of them got disabled from the other... Then you deserve a refund for the disabled skillset. A character archetype was disabled.

[zeldaiscool]

No, it's not the same at all. You could never use tridents, whips and knives together. They're separate weapons. If you could use tridents, whips and knives together and one of them got disabled from the other... Then you deserve a refund for the disabled skillset. A character archetype was disabled.

I guess I just seen it differently when I just unlearned brawling. It was still a useable skillset I just decided it was no longer worth it so I ate the sp loss.

[jkidd]

I guess I just seen it differently when I just unlearned brawling. It was still a useable skillset I just decided it was no longer worth it so I ate the sp loss.

Yes, Mausx has brawling too. I don't think brawling should get a refund. It was a nerf not a disabled skillset.
Brawling 119 grand master 119 7.25


Kick 1 novice 69
Punch 1 novice 69
Slap 20 familiar 104
Head Butt 1 novice 46
Foot Stomp 101 grand master 131
Knee 1 novice 69
Knee Break 101 grand master 95
Bear Hug 1 novice 46
Swat Block 10 practiced 22
Face Block 1 novice 15

[Max Powers]

If there are tweaks (up or down) to single moves or a handful of moves, I don't really believe refunds are necessary.

When the base manner in which a move or skillset changes, there should absolutely be refunds. No ifs, ands, or butts.

The GMs have given us two arguments as to why they won't give refunds while I have seen a third one coming from the playerbase.

1. The SP will just be funneled into the flavor of the week set/move and the cycle will start over. Also, it is the fault of the players for trying to eek out every advantage they could and the moves were never intended like this.

2. It is impractical for GMs to offer refunds with every major overhaul.

3. The sets/moves are still 'useable'


All three of these have pretty much been shot down to one extent or another by multiple people. For me, this isn't one of those things where every single player in the game, past GM, current GM, and bystander needs to agree on. If it doesn't hurt anyone, doesn't take much time, and will keep LONGSTANDING and PAYING customers happy...why not have a GM spend a few hours to give some -ballpark- refunds.

After Pythen's skills were completely wiped due to a bug Wombat was able to give me a ballpark refund in under 10 minutes, and that was mostly because I was responding slowly.

[krisslanza]

SP refunds are nice and all but... SP isn't limited. It's not like even losing 8k SP means you suddenly can't just go earn 8k SP eventually anyway. SP is infinite. I can see a refund being given for something DRASTICALLY new - like saying "Okay you get ONE weapon and ONE style".

But in the case of the gladii change all the change did was prevent you from fluidly switching between all three on the fly. Nothing is stopping you from deciding to use Pardelain, Nelsor, or Avros. You just can't use all three at ONCE. You can, at best, flip between Pardelain/Nelsor and Avros/Nelsor now.

But hey, what do I know? Pretty much everyone on the forum hates my opinion anyway.