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  • By Order of the Senate*

    So going forward, we no longer have trials, bandits still get to stay alive now they get to go to the island, and if you have a corrupt head of either law force they have only senate (gm) balance? I get it, GM's want more hands off, and understandable. I just can't understand 1. Why? A bandit wearing a plate or a bandit with fuzzy spear is still a bandit 2. We put faith in two players today whats gonna happen tommorow if they are gone?
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

  • #2
    I think you are being over dramatic..

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    • #3
      I don't think he's being over dramatic. We just gave two players the power to permanently PK anyone in the gameworld based on their personal judgement calls. In a perfect world where corruption didn't exist that'd be swell and dandy.

      What's stopping the BC or Rats from bribing the Legate to kill a rival?

      What's stopping a zealous Decurion from creating a personal holy war on all Undone in the Steps?

      What's stopping either of them from a potential genocidal purge of the City for all Cinerans?

      And what happens when/if either of their characters die or quit the game. Crime runs rampant? We give someone else the power to do so? Who decides that?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by herdias View Post
        I don't think he's being over dramatic. We just gave two players the power to permanently PK anyone in the gameworld based on their personal judgement calls. In a perfect world where corruption didn't exist that'd be swell and dandy.

        What's stopping the BC or Rats from bribing the Legate to kill a rival?

        What's stopping a zealous Decurion from creating a personal holy war on all Undone in the Steps?

        What's stopping either of them from a potential genocidal purge of the City for all Cinerans?

        And what happens when/if either of their characters die or quit the game. Crime runs rampant? We give someone else the power to do so? Who decides that?
        I agree, he is being over dramatic. Those two players already had that power ingame by warranting them with a holding charge for them to be then sentenced by a Justice. Now they just submit the evidence to the Senate and they decide if they need to go to the island or not.

        1. What's to stop the BC or Rats bribing a Justice to kill a rival? Which HAS happened before.
        2. I dont see how this one is relevant?
        3. That would make a great storyline but whats stopping them from doing that now anyway? The Senate still has to agree that they can send them to the island.
        4. The next lot of people are promoted and the GM's jump on their senate characters and tell them how it should be.


        .

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        • #5
          GMs repeatedly said to try to express that the Senate Decree did two things only:

          1) Gets rid of the 2-3 hour event that is a live trial. We were told that the evidence, preparation, review by GM NPCs, all remains exactly the same. The authority of constables/legio has not increased or decreased in any manner. Before and after this decree, the Station/Legion are the entities that get a request for a sentencing going - what comes from the Station/Century is a request, it is not a judgment. However you wanna describe it IG (Patrician Justice, Senate Death Review Panel, whatever) - the GMs in charge of this game are who ultimately decide which bandit-characters get sent to the island. If Nerwintok and Elowynn were to have a corrupt evil uber-baby tomorrow who becomes Legate/Centurion, corrupt uber-baby's requests for a Cullaiden transfer would still be decided by our same GMs. GMs decide. Not a player character.*

          This also means No more 8-12 month period for the criminal to sit around in jail by himself. Legio/Constables try our very best to book it to the cells whenever we see a criminal in custody on WHO. But I imagine it is still plenty boring to do the same interrogation RP over and over. This always fades because of mutual lack of interest from all players involved. Instead of making criminals sit in jail while schedules are matched up, and things become forgotten, a Cullaiden process is supposed to be much faster and does not require X number of players/GMs to be awake for 3 hours at exactly the same time.

          2) Gives criminals the chance to live or die, away from everyone else. Cullaiden is no paradise. I wanna say I heard most Cullaiden tributes die to mobs in gruesome and horrible deaths rather early on. That stuff isn't being taken away from the place. Can they eek out a living? Yes. Will it be easy? No. And they'll do it far, far away from others players.

          This is an attempt at balancing the opportunity to continue the character, while still dishing out IG justice.

          ------------

          What we're told is that this is supposed to be 1) less wasteful of GM/players' time because trials always dragged out into enormous amounts of waiting, 2) a nifty way for bandits to get to continue on PVP island. Nothing about the review process has changed - except the IG explanations. Player characters are not imbued with the power to send people to the island on their whims.

          Do I agree with the IG explanations for why the Culling happened? That the Island is somehow less costly than a trial? No. But I see from an OOC perspective that this is meant to cut down on crappy RP (extensive jailtime) and promote new opportunities (PVP island.)

          ------------

          * Does it make sense to say that "review by the entire Senate" as opposed to a single Justice = conservation of resources? Not really. But that's the IG explanation we're given to try to communicate IG that GMs are the ones deciding who goes to Cullaiden.

          Comment


          • #6
            Mechanically it's sound. I even think it's pretty awesome.
            The way it was given in game was kind of silly. The decree was pretty free with wording and did make it seem like an over-reach of two position's powers. The restrictions of remaining in character also did not make it easy to fully explain, more so when considering the reasons the characters were given. I appreciate your giving us some clarity, Elowynn, via your post.

            I think the player concerns are mostly over-blown. I look forward to the decision process being faster for these players. It's one thing for a GM to have observed a character earning a free boat ride and approving an action. It's another to have them set aside several hours for what is usually a boring series of horrible pauses. I have high hopes for this making an interesting justice system run smoother. I think in this forum or otherwise out of the game world we'd all like some more information. One thing I immediately think of is the trial provided a means for the player to indicate if they'd even bother continuing the story of an exiled character. VC awards or not, I hope that this process includes the player of the criminal in indicating a punishment. It seems like a loss to send a character to an island to be deleted versus opening up an RP avenue in an execution if the player isn't going to keep going. In fact, does this affect the current policy for "Justice PK" VC awards in any way?

            Different characters will have different reasons for their reaction. Bear in mind in that a lot of these characters have been through and seen some utterly ridiculous stuff. Given the presentation of the decree (and considering what they were given to work with) I can see some reaction in game is warranted. The IC reasoning left some to be desired in this case I think, but I also think that given the nature of the game and its living status this can be smoothed out with time. I must admit that executions and the visibility of criminal justice in the game is something that will suffer. They have been very influential to characters in the past, and reminders like heads on pikes have sparked some good conversations that taught characters about the history and stories of yore. I hope that this isn't completely lost in favor of this new method.

            I for one welcome the new Cullaiden overlord and king of bandit island. (Do they get to bring their stuff!?)

            Comment


            • #7
              I'd love a log, but from the sounds of it, ic, nelsor is doing his best to return to the age of kings, and assume power that isn't his to assume. I mean we have two consuls, and they're the ones in charge, not the senate. Sounds also like the removal of trials, is removing the justice process, and the rights of the accused to defend themselves.

              Comment


              • #8
                So I'll give you two views none to me seem over dramatic at all
                IG wise to Kered - villians (you super bad guys bandits) already have ever advantage between one step ahead catch up, react, hiding (search is worthless now) basically everything on your side, now Hey instead of being put to death like every other bandit nope go to an island where you may or may not die because the republic thinks resources are wasted on a trial but we will put you on a boat. Previously we would just behead you and move on. Secondly IG there is reasoning when you have only 2 people in charge to question both of them and history why I'll leave it at that. (This is not a knock to Tok or Elow's players as I love them both they are great people but they are the ones who invented this not the gm's the senate decree if i recall hearing correctly)

                OCC : I like the idea for certain crimes, i think hey this is great, but you are removing the entire justice part of if we actually catch a bad guy and i think thats kinda crappy. I have been the guy sitting in jail for 6 months real life, I know the idea of a trial and how it works without mine, I know it sucks but I also know it was for a crime not commited. I get it, I dont think its a bad idea, i think as a player who every month has a new bandit of the month, it's disappointment. But if this frees up GM's to finally answer @requests for players and Orgs great, mine are still waiting from last year
                "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArchMagi View Post
                  I'd love a log, but from the sounds of it, ic, nelsor is doing his best to return to the age of kings.
                  I concur with ArchMagi on the principle of the matter but also understand the case being made for an expedited process. The trial system is broken and results in much angst, anguish, frustration, and burnout and it needs to be addressed. The leverage point utilized to address it though, I feel, destroys a key component of the game's lore, Iridinian values, and it's system of government that is what it has fought to defend since expelling the Kings.

                  What is being asked of two players and the "Senate" in this case is a total violation of The 12 Tables and the system of government that exists within the game. The 5th Table is now revoked. The Third table is now a joke as a law (changing/revoking the 5th Table) was made without process and by a body without legislative authority. The Senate debates and highly recommends, the Comitias handle making laws. This matter of convenience at the expense of lore and history is not acceptable. Bypassing the entire legislative, checks and balances, and executive network the Republic created would not only be an egregious violation of the way the Republic is supposed to run, but a violation of the core principles the Republic stands for and a very serious violation of the principles many patricians, Consuls, and Senators have historically stood for.

                  ArchMagi and Kered are right. The action taken has drastic consequences. It proves that now, in Iridine, there is a precedence for bypassing the system of government and ignoring all the systems in place since the kings were overthrown. I do not believe this was addressed and, honestly, it can not be addressed in a few strokes of the keyboard. When, O Nelsor, do you mean to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us? When is there to be an end of that unbridled audacity of yours, swaggering about as it does now? Oh what times? Oh what behavior!
                  Nothing much to say.

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                  • #10
                    To address the OOC concerns: The staff will still be reviewing all attempts to exile someone.

                    As for the IC concerns, address them ICly.
                    Game Master Sceadu

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                    • #11
                      "As for the IC concerns, address them ICly."
                      I have attempted in IC ways and with @request my friend, nada so far
                      "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                      • #12
                        Frankly, I would have addressed them in game if I didn't die at such an inconvenient time, by jumping nelsor at the announcement, and doing my best to beat him up, for multiple reasons. Kill him if I could manage it. But Parlin's dead, so couldn't do that. I'm surprised nobody tried to stand up to an obviously corrupt politician who was destroying the republic, and all it stood for.

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                        • #13
                          Nelsor never showed Parlin, it was only Tok and Elowynn
                          "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                          • #14
                            Will bandits get a chance to fight in the culling and earn their way back to iridine?

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                            • #15
                              I think this is freaking awesome and I had this same idea. As a player who has had multiple trials, I can say that they are a giant waste of time for defendant, all the evidence is stacked against me, i'm revoked of my lawyer rights, never stood a chance to get anything but executed or exiled any ways.

                              The idea that this will be abused is absurd. They already have god mode NPCS and holding charges/unlimited additional warrants for that. If anything its an additional resource for RP. " We catch you again and you're going to the island scum!"

                              I think the island is great, but will need a lot of repairs if we are actually sending people there again.
                              The grass lands contain no grass to gather, the forests have no critters to catch no branches to harvest etc. Lots of little things.

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