By Order of the Senate

[Irisa]

I think this change makes a lot of sense from an OOC perspective. Something obviously needed to be done because of the problems with the existing system. It sounds like it will be a good process in most cases and will improve criminal prosecution for everyone involved.

My main qualm with this is a semantic one - the way it was presented in game, and some of the underlying details. The senate order begins with the phrase, "The practice of conducting trials has proven to be a wasteful burden to the Republic of Iridine and its officials," which seems more motivated by the OOC issues than by justifiable in-game logic. This feels like it defies the rooted history of Iridinian justice and turns the idea of the Republic somewhat on its head.

I would have preferred a more subtle semantic wrapper for this change; maybe one that still maintains the idea and possibility of justice by trials, even if trials do not happen (or very rarely happen) in practice. For example, maybe the Legate and Decurion could have the responsibility of making an "initial evaluation" of criminal cases and making recommendations to the Senate about follow-up actions (which could, theoretically, still include a trial). There ought to be some provision that still maintains a semblance of the public transparency and input; something that suggest the public could influence an important case and, with enough outcry, influence the senate to bring the case to trial, even if the force of that influence goes against the initial evaluation of the Legate or Decurion.

To me, the idea of public engagement in the legal process and the justice system is a core part of the lore in a semi-historical Roman-based role-playing game. Probably on a similar level of symbolic importance as something like the Colosseum.

[The_thief]

I agree, trials should still happen and it should be determined case by case. The island offers a fair alternative though, and I think that is the idea behind this.

[roast]

I completely understand the need to make life easier on criminals and law keepers. It's insane trying to get a trial to work, especially when the players involved can't make schedules align or refuse to log on. It makes sense OOCly noting that. ICly, well, the arguments are before you to digest. I have decisions to make for my characters and it pains me to know which way they are going to go, but RP hard or go home.

[herdias]

I concur with ArchMagi on the principle of the matter but also understand the case being made for an expedited process. The trial system is broken and results in much angst, anguish, frustration, and burnout and it needs to be addressed. The leverage point utilized to address it though, I feel, destroys a key component of the game's lore, Iridinian values, and it's system of government that is what it has fought to defend since expelling the Kings.

What is being asked of two players and the "Senate" in this case is a total violation of The 12 Tables and the system of government that exists within the game. The 5th Table is now revoked. The Third table is now a joke as a law (changing/revoking the 5th Table) was made without process and by a body without legislative authority. The Senate debates and highly recommends, the Comitias handle making laws. This matter of convenience at the expense of lore and history is not acceptable. Bypassing the entire legislative, checks and balances, and executive network the Republic created would not only be an egregious violation of the way the Republic is supposed to run, but a violation of the core principles the Republic stands for and a very serious violation of the principles many patricians, Consuls, and Senators have historically stood for.

ArchMagi and Kered are right. The action taken has drastic consequences. It proves that now, in Iridine, there is a precedence for bypassing the system of government and ignoring all the systems in place since the kings were overthrown. I do not believe this was addressed and, honestly, it can not be addressed in a few strokes of the keyboard. When, O Nelsor, do you mean to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us? When is there to be an end of that unbridled audacity of yours, swaggering about as it does now? Oh what times? Oh what behavior!

Roast nailed my IC concerns on the head. Is the Senate so far corrupt that not one house stood up against the tyranny of these changes?

My new VC is Altene born and earned his citizenship. With these changes, citizenship now means squat. It was a 15 credit phoenix guard free pass.

And what about patricians? Let's say Scyro gets charged of treason...does he as a wealthy patrician now have the same rights as a dirty cineran foreigner in regards to the Twelve tables?

OOCly I have no problem with the changes. ICly there are huge political and sociological undertones for subverting a millennia of tradition and morals of a republic state.

[Stonespyder]

Echoing some of what's already been said, I agree with and support the ideas behind the change from an OOC perspective and definitely see and look forward to the benefits of having an exile island 100%. But I also agree that the way it was introduced from an IC perspective was baffling on so many levels already mentioned in this thread (roast laid it out very eloquently). I'm still kinda astounded they went this route IG, and while I won't list point by point, my only conclusion is that this is the first step towards a new era of Iridine society as a whole. Which is a huge deal, and also opens up a whole new storyline, one with an epic scope. If this wasn't the intention, I think it could have simply been handled better IG by saying "in lieu of a trial, most bandit cases will end with the new review process. The Office of Urban Justice still holds ultimate oversight and can hold a trial if deemed necessary." which would have added all the benefits without removing Justices, courts, one of the Twelve Tables, jobs for still active patricians, a foundation of the Republic, etc. etc.

But my real burning question is how did the Senate wrestle the position away from Lucian Allende? Unless he had a literal aneurysm and died when he heard they were giving his powers to two commoners, I don't see how his personality as dictated for almost a decade would have ever let him give up his signet ring.

[roast]

But my real burning question is how did the Senate wrestle the position away from Lucian Allende? Unless he had a literal aneurysm and died when he heard they were giving his powers to two commoners, I don't see how his personality as dictated for almost a decade would have ever let him give up his signet ring.

I had not even thought of that. You provided an IC Solution to me though. Lucian, the stunned and angry Patrician that he is, upset at the new power in the hands of Plebs and new power being centralized by Nelsor, leads a Tiberius Gracchus-like hunting mob, wielding every imaginable implement, through the forum. The mob of Allende supporters and clients murders everyone and anyone Nelsor, tossing them into the Invex, until personally beating Nelsor to death with a table leg. Then we can do exactly what you just said and implement a system that solves this OOC issue with more IC justification and means, once the blood has dried.

Juicy real event for those interested, as Plutarch tells it, " Now, the attendants of the senators carried clubs and staves which they had brought from home; but the senators themselves seized the fragments and legs of the benches that were shattered by the crowd in its flight, and went up against Tiberius, at the same time smiting those who were drawn up to protect him. Of these there was a rout and a slaughter, and as Tiberius himself turned to fly, someone laid hold of his garments. So he let his toga go and fled in his tunic. But he stumbled and fell to the ground among some bodies that lay in front of him. As he strove to rise to his feet, he received his first blow, as everybody admits, from Publius Satyreius, one of his colleagues, who smote him on the head with the leg of a bench; to the second blow claim was made by Lucius Rufus, who plumed himself upon it as upon some noble deed. And of the rest more than three hundred were slain by blows from sticks and stones, but not one by the sword."

[Elowynn]

I think what Stonespyder, Roast and Irisa have said about the IG reasoning being rather tortured for the OOC tweaks are spot on. There is very much something to learn here about how to approach shifts from Roman inspired lore - with respect and appreciation. I also think it is our responsibility as players to stand up for lore and immersion, if that is (hopefully still) important to us. I would also like to see more acknowledgement of lore, tradition, and period role play.

That said, however, the cries of "tyranny" in the above respect seem to be mingling with the cries of "tyranny" stemming from a little bit of misunderstanding.

- I don't think all trials are being done away with. Just "banditry" etc. related trials where the outcome would, more likely than not, have been exile or death. So what Stonespyder says here is correct:

I think it could have simply been handled better IG by saying "in lieu of a trial, most bandit cases will end with the new review process. The Office of Urban Justice still holds ultimate oversight and can hold a trial if deemed necessary." which would have added all the benefits without removing Justices, courts, one of the Twelve Tables, jobs for still active patricians, a foundation of the Republic, etc. etc.

I agree that is a much better IG reasoning - rather than giving the oversight to the Senate directly, which makes much less sense. However, what you're saying (other than the IG name for "GM oversight") is a correct explanation of what has happened IG. Only "bandit" related trials are being expedited into Cullaiden exile requests.

- That said, "banditry, etc." trials were the most frequent seen in the game world by players. Would it be a stretch to imagine there are still other types of trials going on, the same way we imagine thousands of NPC inhabitants leading their daily lives?

- At no point did anything if the Senate's decree state Citizenship was no longer a consideration for anything. At the very least, it is my IG experience Citizenship factors significantly into both accusing and sentencing. Nothing in the decree changes that as far as I'm aware.

On another note - some of my less philosophical and more practical IC concerns are these:

- The Island seems to be a desired sentence, rather than a deterrent. Did the Senate consider this will just encourage more bandits to misbehave rather than less?

- As before, the IC method for an accused to defend himself is cumbersome. A specialist to streamline the defense process, IG, such as a criminal lawyer, seems very difficult to actually arrange IG. The Legio doesn't even have a window for a criminal to speak with someone from the outside world, like the Station does. We've asked for things for prisoners to be able to write and communicate - like parchment/pens in the cells,or some kind of warden able to announce in thoughts when a prisoner wants to speak with someone. Are these things worth implementing?

[Kjel]

Given the random topic the Senate considered, maybe they'll allow hoods and masks to be legal again. Not like folks have been asking for that for a lonnnnnnnnnng time.

[Tyril]

I missed the event but this sounds awesome, one of my characters who has been considering starting an uprising can now dream of being king of the island and forming a small army..though I'm sure his dream will be mechanically impossible it will still be cool rp.

[Abeldor]

The idea to send people to the island is great.
I can understand OOCly this new system and I am not surprised the staff takes such course of action.
But the way it is introduced IG doesn't make any sense. We are facing an obvious lack of understanding of Iridine's political system (like it or not highly inspired on the roman republic).
Such change could happen... but not like that and it should have been a HUGE storyarc.

[mikeand]

Can someone post the actual decree? I looked/asked around IG and couldn't find it to read, maybe I looked in the wrong places?

[mikeand]

It's all a plot to fire them! lol...

04-06-2014, 11:22 PM


For your reading pleasure....

Subject: From the Desk of Lucian Allende
---
Celeres Illryia,

Recent events have been brought to my attention in the handling of the arrest
and trial of the citizen Synodia Canius and the events leading up to and
following. I must say that these reports are disturbing on many levels.
While the fate of a criminal such as herself is beneath me, the way in which
my assistants handle themselves and appear in the public eye is very much a
concern of mine. As it appears, yourself and Assistant Steward Noraetis have
openly conspired to defraud the republic by providing executable prisoners for
games, regardless of how you must get them. This, I cannot overlook.

As of this moment, consider yourself relieved of your position as my
assistant. The Senate has agreed to not file public charges as long as this
incident is not publically flaunted to bring further attention unto this
office and your transgressions.

Justice Lucian Allende

I'd be angry if it wasn't so hilariously ridiculous. What can you do - besides laugh - when you're accused of masterminding a death camp for criminals scheme?

[Elowynn]

The discrepancy between the new decree and what Mikeand posted is pretty glaring.

I don't think it's too much for players to ask that the gameworld makes sense - from legal, philosophical, principle-based viewpoints.

it has been an arguably necessary stretch for characters to justify "some bandits (NPCs) can be killed, beheaded, piked by anyone, but some (PCs) can't, and you'll get in trouble for hunting those." Less of that, and more IG consistency would be go a long way, especially for characters like Methodios, and many other characters who want to believe in the Senate/system.

I think a hard look at maintaining IG believability is pretty key when it comes to making a game like this last - and I think that's both a staff and player responsibility.

[Ryzen]

I don't really see the big deal why some people are angry about it. There's still plenty of checks and balances via the staff and the system largely remains the same. What really eats me is how people behave when it comes to criminality, or confrontations with others, and the consequences that may occur.

Gone are the days where people were actually legitimately scared of something, where shivers would run through your spine from being in the wrong area at the wrong time. I feel like now people think too much into the mechanics and how something can or cannot actually hurt them. The only real fear people have is 'gear fear' (fear of losing their items), and less of the potential IC consequences. Yes, we know someone cannot really hurt you much beyond breaking a bone, cutting your tongue out, or possibly actually getting a PK ticket after multiple, and I mean MULTIPLE confrontations. Where is the suspension of disbelief anymore? Do we simply lack imagination now? Do we know too much about the mechanics? If someone says "I'm gonna cut yer fingers off if you talk." Well, you know they can't actually do that... so do you care about their threat realistically? I'd say getting a tongue cut out is the worst thing another player can do to you on the initial confrontation (maybe those should be more regulated as well). This part may have sounded a little off-topic, but it's one of my major frustration with the games and kinda the source of how some people have been acting OOC'ly about this announcement, and how it kinda fell into a player quitting by being fed false information.

Now I'm seeing people saying that they'll just become a bandit and get a simple island vacation. I hope there's something a lot more than that. We don't really know the actual rules behind the banishment. Are those banished going to have to participate in the next culling? Will they be given an opportunity to win and restore their freedoms, or will they simply be obstacles for the contestants? Will they be killable?

Maybe the senate really is trying to push an agenda here and people are onto something. I think that'd actually be quite cool and another step forward for the game, but I think the focus of some of the anger is in the wrong place. I'd like to see some more details come out of this and see where it takes us.

I think some of y'all might be in for a shock when they get to Cullaiden and see what it's all about. Hope you like walking for hours on end.

[Kered]

"- The Island seems to be a desired sentence, rather than a deterrent. Did the Senate consider this will just encourage more bandits to misbehave rather than less?"

"it has been an arguably necessary stretch for characters to justify "some bandits (NPCs) can be killed, beheaded, piked by anyone, but some (PCs) can't, and you'll get in trouble for hunting those." Less of that, and more IG consistency would be go a long way, especially for characters like Methodios, and many other characters who want to believe in the Senate/system."

This is me, not the change occly, I get it automation is the way to go, x amount of lawmakers x hours x law breakers = never going ot happen.

Again I have approached IG concerns through the proper channels, my frustration is, we just encouraged more bandits to break the law with a new life on austrilla, which may or may not be death or it may be life. But I see it as this, the senate decree was sponsored by people who want Iridine to be weaker, and go from there.