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  • #16
    Get rid of contraband on hoods and masks and just let it be illegal to have your face covered
    .

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Syden View Post
      Get rid of contraband on hoods and masks and just let it be illegal to have your face covered
      This. This would be so much more fun if hoods weren't as stupidly illegal as they are currently. As it stands, it seems the default thing to do for criminals is wear a faceplate since they're across the board superior to use than a hood or a mask. Face protection as armor, doesn't get uncovered as easily, and unlike masks no one can grab them from you. My character has rarely run into someone wearing a hood, but has run into multiple criminals using a faceplate. He's never seen anyone in a mask, ever, due to the ridiculous risk associated with one. At the bare minimum, uncover should not have a chance of stealing someone's 50+ talent item that they're wearing when there is no real defense against it.

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      • #18
        I'd prefer them stay illegal, and gain the ability to hide body type. The reason being is to bring back the old days of fear with hoods. If hoods are made legal, they become the poor non fighter's dull faceplate. Right now the only people with the balls to wear hoods know how to keep them. Combine this with hiding body type, and you're sure to see some scary types pop up, unafraid of being id's because of their build.

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        • #19
          Remove the heat seeking Constable crowd mechanics then.
          .

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Syden View Post
            Remove the heat seeking Constable crowd mechanics then.
            And in general remove the amount of NPC Constables station around the city AND how many can be pulled out of a crowd.
            Tale responds from afar, "Decided to give out t-shirts to all the people I murder. Three so far. This way you can all say, "Tale murdered me! .....and all I got was this stupid t-shirt!!""

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Felisin View Post

              And in general remove the amount of NPC Constables station around the city AND how many can be pulled out of a crowd.
              Agreed. I think somewhere along the lines, NPC constables received a lot of tweaks so that they could deal with characters with several thousand combat ranks. The problem with that, is that by being able to deal with those fighters, has made it so that thieves or other weaker combatants stand no chance whatsoever. Most of the time if a newer character gets warranted for a weapon wield, they pretty much have to eat the charge and go to jail because the vast majority of PC constables can't fix it, and there's no way to reason/bribe/stop the NPCs short of going to jail. The heat seeking mechanic could stand to be toned down in general.

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              • #22
                anything other than eating the charge is resisting arrest.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ilkilyn View Post
                  I'd prefer them stay illegal, and gain the ability to hide body type.
                  Would this apply to regular cloaks, too?

                  The covered face ban was from a senator? that was killed what, 20 years ago RL? That's like a century in TEC time. Even now, Legio get all huffy if you wear a plate in the woods...when not in combat. Taking that a little far IMO.

                  And besides, what do the constables have to do these days? I remember when the "wine man" used to stand at the Toga in his mask and just drink and talk to people. It was fun, it was mysterious. If someone masked, hood, plated, committed a crime, they had to actually investigate, interview people, find clues, be vigilant, not be outside of their jurisdiction for the majority of their days. I used to play a constable, it was fun. Now, it's just laziness and relying on body type and height. Two of the most OOC ways of catching a bad guy.

                  It comes back to the issue of balance. Law enforcement needs a viable thing to chase. Those being chased need to have some ways of being successful and doing their craft. Then we can get into how those wielding healing magic should have to deal with more damage being done to people (maybe that can't be fixed as easy). Did someone say bring back Anatomy Lore? Not me. But you should.



                  <Tivan thinks aloud: No offense, I'd rather take it from behind by an eyeless humanoid from twilight...guess I'll get them myself.>

                  Haggard squeaks to MindThrasher, "My only regret about lanc dying...is that Kjel was at the toga.."

                  Fidellus whispers something to Lucarnes.
                  Carefully reading his lips, you make out the words "I liked it, but I have a thing for blondes in catholic school girl skirts

                  A woman in a slinky red nightgown flirts to you, "Bears are repulsive."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hoods and masks should definitely be made legal with the same status as faceplates. I'd be okay with hoods hiding body type too (regular non-hooded cloaks could do the same thing). The odds are already wildly in the favor of law keeping organizations. Even if all these changes were made it wouldn't be an unbalanced change. And after all this time I'd be interested to see what the change brings IG.
                    Don't tread on me.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Kjel View Post

                      And besides, what do the constables have to do these days? I remember when the "wine man" used to stand at the Toga in his mask and just drink and talk to people. It was fun, it was mysterious. If someone masked, hood, plated, committed a crime, they had to actually investigate, interview people, find clues, be vigilant, not be outside of their jurisdiction for the majority of their days. I used to play a constable, it was fun. Now, it's just laziness and relying on body type and height. Two of the most OOC ways of catching a bad guy.
                      I think at this point, sooooo many things have changed it's an unfair comparison. Just making masks legal will not revert changes to mechanics, skillsets or even size of playerbase that also made that type of scenario possible. Not everyone and their mother knew how to hide/sneak. Scripting was highly discouraged, there was less RP gain, it was harder to turtle up with less diminishing RB and more combat holes, players overall had less ranks, no one was cutting tongues, you could easily come back from a player PK, etc. Hell, the playerbase wasn't so small that everyone who bothered to try didn't know everyone else's characters via Facebook, Skype, Discord, etc.

                      I think it makes more sense to suggest changes with the intention of making them work in our current gameworld than trying to revive a long-gone past.
                      A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                      A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                      A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                      “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

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                      • #26
                        I'd like to echo many of the ideas already posted here. The over 90 rolls you get from some PP moves should be an effect you can train all the time. I'd also like to suggest that RT's drop with more ranks as well. I also echo the hood sentiments on hiding builds. I would also add that masks/hoods should be far harder to uncover across the board. Also not against them just becoming legal again.

                        I think the big problems with thieves come from a real lack of targets, or reason to use our skills. More than 50% of all skills in those 3 sets are pointless, or actually serve as a detriment to attempt to use while stealing. Currently, you're rewarded the most for finding a quiet place, running a track looking for traders, slicing their pouches, and repeating that endlessly until you delete or suicide yourself. We need something to aspire to beyond this.

                        I think the number one way to handle that is to increase variety of targets and loot available on NPC's. What I would personally suggest for this is introducing some sort of PP 'stat skill', that works like the basics for tailoring (Rises when you rank up your subskills). The higher this skill is, the more valuable the target is you draw from the crowd. You could also just rework PP basics to function like tailoring basics, and determine this based off your basics.

                        To go with that, you bump up the loot across the board on all NPC's, and create new NPC's archetypes and strategies to use your skills against. Also, bump up the fatigue drain on actual theft moves to match the raised value of loot. To echo what someone said earlier, you create 'strategies' that must be employed, using a variety of skills or people, to steal bigger prizes. High tier Patricians should be followed be entourages where you have to evade guards, high tier traders and merchants should pull carts with goodies in them... I would take this a few steps further, limiting your ability to steal from an NPC to a timed window, and incorporate the lower RT's with higher ranks suggested above.

                        Many of the skills right now across all three sets have some real problems. I think most of the revamp focus should be placed on PC Vs NPC theft here. The reasons we have so many restrictions on the way these skills work is because players don't like being stolen from. They don't like not having an actionable response. I'll try to go through some of the skills and offer some suggestions in the theme I've described above.

                        Knife lift and sword lift: currently only usable against a small variety of NPC's, and are only used to steal very specific contraband. You can get caught on rolls over success, while hidden, wearing two layers of cover. Put swords and daggers on many, many more NPC's. I might even consider combining both these skills into one (Weapon lift?) and having it open up to baldrics with more ranks. I even want to say with enough ranks you can steal bulky weapons out of backpacks.

                        Slice strap and cut and lift: basically the same skill, except one is clearly worse. You can do everything with slice and more you can do with cut and lift. Cut and lift is kind of this intermediate move you take until you can get slice right now. This is another one I'd strongly consider just combining into one move, or giving them more individual purpose. Maybe make it so cut and lift works on all containers, larger ones with ranks. And then maybe change slice to work on items that are held on with straps or cordage of some sort (Cloaks, sagums, paenula's, baldrics, etc)

                        Handoff and receive handoff :have next to no useful purpose. I would go with Ilkilyn's suggestions on this one. Right now, unless the object is small enough to palm, you can clearly see it in someones hands before attempting a handoff. Which begs the questions, why have it out or try to hand it off in a situation like that at all? I'd personally love it if handoff was changed to a 'plant' skill, and recieve handoff was changed to a 'detect plant' skill, i.e: The ability to slide something you have into someone else' belongings, or detect someone attempting to do it to you.

                        Quick Grab: A warrant waiting to happen. I'd like to see far more stuff grabbable than what's in someones hands. Grab should be a catch all for the dirtiest, quickest and riskiest way to attempt a theft, with a guaranteed warrant at the end. I'd also like to see the ability to grab someones hand, especially if it's wielding a bladed weapon.

                        City Stalk: Arguably one of the more useful setups, but next to no point in actual stealing. I think some NPC's should wander, as if they're on their way to collect something valuable. It would be great if you used this to follow higher tier marks for bigger payouts.

                        ground approach: Use to get by guards, should again. Right now it's just an 'appr' only one person see's. Some high value marks should have guards, and this should be useful in getting by them.

                        Street approach and drunken approach: no point in using either of these right now. Both have long Rt's, one's invisible, one has an obvious echo. And there's nothing you can accomplish here you can't already do with ground approach. I'd recommend either combining these two into a single 'stealthy approach', or incorporating them as requirements for specific high tier targets in specific scenario's.

                        fade away: Another one there's not a lot of point in using. It's only really useful for retreating while hiding, but there's no reward for going through the effort of doing all that work. Fall back is superior in 95% of occasions. I like this skill and wouldn't get rid of it, I'd just increase what it's usable for. Give it the same treatment as the approaches; Make it a requirement for maintaining stealth against high value targets.

                        Combat Assess: Lackluster. I tend to agree that this should probably just be moved to CM's. But if it did stay in Setups, this skill really just needs more color. I think ther'es a total of 6 different description echoes across all characters IG right now, with a variance of 0-21k ranks. This skill is primarily used for RP, and for judging the fairness of PvP fights. With a range like that though, it's not very effective. Tighten it up, triple the echoes, and make it far more accurate with ranks... staying in PP maybe even have it reveal more details that combat oriented ones.

                        Thief's look: This skill literally exists from a time when 'looking' at someone use to convince people you were a thief. It's alright, but it could use a lot more functionality. It would be great if this skill gave you a rundown of what could be stolen on a mark. With high ranks, you can establish what someone is carrying through layers.

                        Ear for Coin: I mean, it works, but why bother even using it? It's just a time sink right now. If you're stealing coin pouches you're likely to steal every pouch you find. However, if you increased the fatigue drain on PP moves and upped loot, waiting for a quality mark will be a lot more worth while and this skill could see some excellent use.

                        Draw attention: It's not practical to use it all. Like the moves mentioned above, make draw attention a requirement in stealing from some higher tier marks. I'd like to see this incorporated into NPC marks that would require 2-3 thieves to steal from for HUGE prizes. With higher ranks, have it so you not only spook, but you do it without the mark realizing you're doing it.

                        Sneaking / hiding: Simply put, these moves are just too difficult in most of the gameworld to justify even bothering with them at all. They don't provide any benefit to theft currently, either. Sneaking and hiding should be essential requirements in stealing from higher value NPC marks. I would also lighten some of the penalties across the game that effect these two moves from being pulled off successfully.

                        Watcher's Sense: I mean, who really knows if this works? Nobody ever learns this. This SHOULD be an all encompassing 'thief awareness' type skill that makes PvP thefts and sneaky skills more difficult to pull off. I don't know if anyone has actually verified if this is actually the case, though. If it isn't, it should be.

                        Stash: Not enough variance. I should be able to hide the entrances to stuff, or disguise larger objects with more ranks. Honestly, I've never taken this high enough to verify if you can already do that or not, but if you can't you should be able to.

                        Depending on how big of a job you want to jump into GM looking into this, I'd also recommend several of these skills for use in espionage jobs Collecting information and relaying it to buyers. There's a lot to play with here if someone wants to tackle it.

                        Here's a couple of links too, to some more involved ideas I and others have proposed over the last 20 years:

                        http://forum.skotos.net/forum/our-ga...8307-npc-theft
                        http://forum.skotos.net/forum/our-ga...-talk-burglary
                        http://forum.skotos.net/forum/our-ga...-theft-an-idea
                        http://forum.skotos.net/forum/our-ga...ng-suggestions
                        Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                        I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                        You mean it's true?
                        Originally posted by Phwoar
                        Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                        Originally posted by Elowynn
                        Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ilkilyn View Post
                          Skill to take an item out of a container silently (prepare for handoff)
                          Skill to put an item in a container silently (so you can walk away without them seeing "you walk away with their sword in your hand)
                          Skill to put an item in someone else's open container silently (Planting)
                          Quest-style missions for Franlius (special pouches that contain intel spawn on npc's), and Steps (BC wants knives/swords from Alati and vice versa for rep)
                          When Hidden, Drunken approach should generate a random room echo like sailor spilling a drink - and is only possible in bars!)
                          Draw Attention Should generate a random room echo based on that room. Rooms with no natural echos should just generate the standard current spook echo list.

                          Handoff as a command without a target should have your char sit in a roundtime waiting to handoff, with no room echo. Your partner would need to know already you're expecting them to come and get the item from you. This way, the hidden partner can <receive Ilkilyn> and receive your handoff by targeting you, the unhidden person. If noone receives the handoff by the end of a fairly long roundtime, you have to pass a second roll to see if anyone notices what you're doing.

                          Ear for coin should get two new echo's, currently I think it's limited to whether they have a talent or more, would be nice to see "has tens of talents on them!" and "must have a hundred or more talents on them!"

                          Combat Assess should -only- be effective on someone wielding a weapon, shield, or standing in a combat stance. I feel keeping combat ability a secret should be a thing as everyone seems to know combat assess these days. If you want to slyly find out how good someone is, you need to sneak into an area when they're fighting and assess them when they're fighting. When successful though, I think an additional echo should give you an idea of how -you- stand up against that person, such as "You think it'd be a fair fight against them" or "You could probably kick their butt" Also Combat Assess should be silent or high chance of being silent if you're hidden.

                          Stalk should keep your one pace -behind- your target always, so they have to look a pace behind them to see you. Keep the current roll per move to check if they see you. This would change stalk from being a "let me follow you to your domus door and then snatch your key" to "Let me follow at a distance and see where you're going, and then decide what my options are". Stalk should have a toggle-overt option, where you can try to be more stealthy at the risk of losing your target by only allowing stalk to work when there's a crowd or ability to hide in your next square. If there's not, you give up and stop following. Being overt continues following regardless even into hallways with no crowd or hiding chance, meaning you're clearly visible.
                          Tutuapp 9apps Showbox If stalking while Hidden, you should have to make a sneak chance on each room move, and fall out of hiding if you fail. You should however still be following that person at a one pace distance making rolls to avoid being seen by them. Others in the area may still see you stalking them at a distance..
                          .
                          I agree with you in this point: you give up and stop following. To be clear continues to follow, even in corridors without crowd or chance to hide
                          but you do not have to give up quickly and easily

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                            I'd like to echo many of the ideas already posted here. The over 90 rolls you get from some PP moves should be an effect you can train all the time. I'd also like to suggest that RT's drop with more ranks as well. I also echo the hood sentiments on hiding builds. I would also add that masks/hoods should be far harder to uncover across the board. Also not against them just becoming legal again.

                            I think the big problems with thieves come from a real lack of targets, or reason to use our skills. More than 50% of all skills in those 3 sets are pointless, or actually serve as a detriment to attempt to use while stealing. Currently, you're rewarded the most for finding a quiet place, running a track looking for traders, slicing their pouches, and repeating that endlessly until you delete or suicide yourself. We need something to aspire to beyond this.
                            I didn't want to quote the entire thing but nice run down of things. I mentioned the making masks and covers legal again because it'd likely require the least amount of effort on the GM side. In every modern game, the meta changes and players adapt. I believe in balance. Thieves should have skills that work and help them get away from the ever-powerful law enforcement. Characters should have some way to navigate around massive spawns of NPCs where number 7 is guarding number 4 but number 2 has approached you but is guarded by number 3. Someone please fix drunken approach or just move to CMs and call it a day! Lastly, maybe a skill is reintroduced to help someone get around combat guarding. I'm all about balance and I think this thread is getting at.
                            <Tivan thinks aloud: No offense, I'd rather take it from behind by an eyeless humanoid from twilight...guess I'll get them myself.>

                            Haggard squeaks to MindThrasher, "My only regret about lanc dying...is that Kjel was at the toga.."

                            Fidellus whispers something to Lucarnes.
                            Carefully reading his lips, you make out the words "I liked it, but I have a thing for blondes in catholic school girl skirts

                            A woman in a slinky red nightgown flirts to you, "Bears are repulsive."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              [QUOTE=Rupert;n1770579]
                              Watcher's Sense: I mean, who really knows if this works? Nobody ever learns this. This SHOULD be an all encompassing 'thief awareness' type skill that makes PvP thefts and sneaky skills more difficult to pull off. I don't know if anyone has actually verified if this is actually the case, though. If it isn't, it should be.

                              My thief has this skill set, like one or two ranks.. I have had one time where I sensed an archer character aiming his bow at me at a distance.. that was not long after the steps opened. never learned anymore and it has never repeated


                              "In my many years I have come to a conclusion that
                              one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." -- John Adams

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