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  • #16
    If someone could provide a comprehensive list of all the barest basic needs of the average newbies that they seem to have trouble obtaining straight away, I'd appreciate it. For example: A (tin) weapon, boots, gloves, some padded armor, etc. Need a list for all skills (both combat and noncombat) and a separate list of all sundry/non-skill items (like torches, sacks, basic food, a waterskin, etc).
    Game Master Tale
    Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Creativity is putting tomatoes in a fruit salad to make mango salsa. Philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is actually a smoothie. Common Sense is knowing that no, ketchup is not a smoothie.

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    • #17
      Thank you Tale , here’s your chance folks chime in
      "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
        I can't speak to past changes that have been made that you feel steered the game away from a positive newcomer experience - mostly because you won't name them. I will say, however, I think the team has made it pretty clear that we're open to feedback. I obviously can't make you share your ideas, but if we don't know what people feel they are struggling with, we can't look at them to see if there need to be changes made.
        A lot of these changes that I'm speaking of have happened in the last 4 years and have been done by current staff members. A lot of these changes were also not even posted in the relevant update threads. That is one part of the frustration and the other is that these changes were clearly not well-thought out nor were they even tested in the actual gameworld. Anyone that would have actually tested these changes that were made would've realized within moments that they were not suitable for the hunting grounds' intended target characters. A lot of the problems are directly linked to the hunting grounds. I can formulate a more detailed post to share my experiences, but I'd highly recommend to whoever is interested in making changes to the newbie experience to play an actual solo newbie without relying on others (scavenging, gifts, lessons, etc.) to get the true experience. Don't start as a veteran character with that free 5 talents and random items either.

        Originally posted by Tale View Post
        If someone could provide a comprehensive list of all the barest basic needs of the average newbies that they seem to have trouble obtaining straight away, I'd appreciate it. For example: A (tin) weapon, boots, gloves, some padded armor, etc. Need a list for all skills (both combat and noncombat) and a separate list of all sundry/non-skill items (like torches, sacks, basic food, a waterskin, etc).
        I feel like this is missing the mark. The entire progression needs to be modified. Newbies don't need freebies. They have to earn it for themselves for a better experience, but how can you earn it if you are incapable of making any substantial amount of money using your actual skill/trade as you progress? I've got 375 ranks, no armor and no real way of making money other than to dive for pearls. I want to make some coin with my main skill without having to learn secondary skills. I don't want my newbie experience to be all about repeating the same boring tasks (hello newbie mission(s)) without any sense of progression.

        Like I said, I'll formulate a well-detailed post, but I still highly recommend for one of you interested in altering the newbie experience to play an actual newbie.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post

          A lot of these changes that I'm speaking of have happened in the last 4 years and have been done by current staff members. A lot of these changes were also not even posted in the relevant update threads. That is one part of the frustration and the other is that these changes were clearly not well-thought out nor were they even tested in the actual gameworld. Anyone that would have actually tested these changes that were made would've realized within moments that they were not suitable for the hunting grounds' intended target characters. A lot of the problems are directly linked to the hunting grounds. I can formulate a more detailed post to share my experiences, but I'd highly recommend to whoever is interested in making changes to the newbie experience to play an actual solo newbie without relying on others (scavenging, gifts, lessons, etc.) to get the true experience. Don't start as a veteran character with that free 5 talents and random items either.
          You know I heart you, but this is super vague. I may know some of what you're referring to, because you and I have talked often, but someone reading this thread probably couldn't guess your specific examples. What are these "a lot of changes," specifically? What hunting ground, within moments, is clearly an unintended error? Specific examples can lead to specific tweaks
          • I've played about half a dozen solo-TEC bottom-barrel noobs, and I find money making quite easy, and training accessible. However, I find opportunities for character-to-character engagement is low - I would love there to be more social events for exploring and hanging out. There. That's something specific.
          • I think ranks at least ranks 1-20 should be taught for free. Or, ranks 1-40 should be taught for free while a character has Newbie toggled on. Or, perhaps the Ludus (which already has a rank limit to enter), could teach 1-40 for free. There. That's something specific.
          • I think the danger of the aralex pits are far too easily wandered into by accident. Once you enter the lowest level, you often cannot leave without killing dangerous mobs that are capable of comaing you in a short time frame. If you've never been there, there's no way to know this is a trap you could get stuck in. These pits are attached by a supposed low level hunting ground (rat pits), and it is easy to wander too deep. The top level and mid level are nowhere near the same danger tier. At the very least, there needs to be a "secret lever" (or even, intimidatingly ominous lever) to push to enter the aralex portion, to give a sort of alert. There. That's also something specific.
          • I think the clothes destroying mechanic in the Old City sucks.
          • I think crazy man in the dumps needs to die already. Maybe hunting in the dumps could come with a smell you can't wash off for X days.
          • Destruction of skins from not having any skill in it should be reduced. Skinning as a noob used to be THE way to start slowly earning money.
          Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post
          I feel like this is missing the mark. The entire progression needs to be modified. Newbies don't need freebies. They have to earn it for themselves for a better experience, but how can you earn it if you are incapable of making any substantial amount of money using your actual skill/trade as you progress? I've got 375 ranks, no armor and no real way of making money other than to dive for pearls. I want to make some coin with my main skill without having to learn secondary skills. I don't want my newbie experience to be all about repeating the same boring tasks (hello newbie mission(s)) without any sense of progression.

          Like I said, I'll formulate a well-detailed post, but I still highly recommend for one of you interested in altering the newbie experience to play an actual newbie.
          ​​​​​​

          I think to throw around "hey, you don't even actually play," needs to be based on fact. Previous GMs had explicitly said he/she hasn't played the game in X number of years. We haven't heard that from the current staff; that's an unsupported assumption.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Tale View Post
            If someone could provide a comprehensive list of all the barest basic needs of the average newbies that they seem to have trouble obtaining straight away, I'd appreciate it. For example: A (tin) weapon, boots, gloves, some padded armor, etc. Need a list for all skills (both combat and noncombat) and a separate list of all sundry/non-skill items (like torches, sacks, basic food, a waterskin, etc).

            For everyone:
            - Unlimited sacks could be super cheap, or free, for when newbie is toggled on. I know about the library trick, but real noobs wouldn't. I use sacks to go scavenge and drag stuff to the junk buyer.
            - So much yes to the waterskin.
            - A ratty sagum or paenula.

            In addition:

            Outdoors/Hunting:
            - A fishing pole

            Healers:
            - Surgical scissors/knife. (And I think some sort of blade in hand should be required to cut stitches already.)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post
              I feel like this is missing the mark. The entire progression needs to be modified. Newbies don't need freebies. They have to earn it for themselves for a better experience, but how can you earn it if you are incapable of making any substantial amount of money using your actual skill/trade as you progress? I've got 375 ranks, no armor and no real way of making money other than to dive for pearls. I want to make some coin with my main skill without having to learn secondary skills. I don't want my newbie experience to be all about repeating the same boring tasks (hello newbie mission(s)) without any sense of progression.

              Like I said, I'll formulate a well-detailed post, but I still highly recommend for one of you interested in altering the newbie experience to play an actual newbie.
              With all due respect...you don't know what my 'mark' is, let alone weather what I'm currently working on will hit it or not. Nor do you know how many times, or when the last time I've 'played a newbie' was.

              Immediately criticizing someone who just asked for assistance in coming up with information needed for Project D because as far as you're aware, they are not working on Project B instead right this moment is not productive for either project. Nor does it foster further communication and desire to continue soliciting feedback. If someone volunteers to pick up trash on the side of the road to better the community, you don't criticize them for their choice and yell at them to scrub graffiti instead. For all you know, that's next on their list, or they're just waiting for someone to come back with a proper scrub brush.

              Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
              For everyone:
              - Unlimited sacks could be super cheap, or free, for when newbie is toggled on. I know about the library trick, but real noobs wouldn't. I use sacks to go scavenge and drag stuff to the junk buyer.
              - So much yes to the waterskin.
              - A ratty sagum or paenula.

              In addition:

              Outdoors/Hunting:
              - A fishing pole

              Healers:
              - Surgical scissors/knife. (And I think some sort of blade in hand should be required to cut stitches already.)
              Excellent start to what I was after, thank you! Also, your suggestions for other newbie-friendly changes that you think might be helpful are most appreciated. Also, thanks for making them suggestions and not telling me what I need to do. Some people might be surprised how much easier it is to get behind politely worded suggestions as opposed to telling someone what 'needs to be done' or what they 'need to be doing'. Keep those suggestions coming in, please!
              Game Master Tale
              Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Creativity is putting tomatoes in a fruit salad to make mango salsa. Philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is actually a smoothie. Common Sense is knowing that no, ketchup is not a smoothie.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TEC_Ghuan View Post
                I feel like this is missing the mark. The entire progression needs to be modified. Newbies don't need freebies. They have to earn it for themselves for a better experience, but how can you earn it if you are incapable of making any substantial amount of money using your actual skill/trade as you progress?
                Not to give too much away, but this is exactly why Tale asked for this information - and it has nothing to do with freebies. There are a number of updates currently being made to enhance the newbie experience, and by proxy, to lower-level hunting grounds.

                Comment


                • #23
                  In my experience of starting noobs in recent history the biggest problems I've had have been with money. I agree that it's easy to make, it's more taking the time out of what you want to be doing because you have to that takes away from the experience for me. If I go to the ludus at the start of cycle and train, I won't even be able to finish a fatigue bar before I hit the 200 SP cap. Then I'll have to spend the next hour I play diving for pearls, and hopefully I'll have enough to pay for my next lessons. I could go scavenge too, but we're also looking at an hour or so investment there. I'm not saying you shouldn't have to work for money, I just would like to see the process more streamlined. The best word to describe it as it is now might be 'clunky'. You kind of have to love the game already to go through it.

                  The ludus is nice with the lessons at half price it offers, but it would be really nice to see the ranks taught doubled at least, paying for lessons early on (Especially if you take an uncommon weapon) Can add up pretty quickly, and then that one diving trip you were taking before is now two.

                  I really like the way that the thief mission guy works when it comes to how he teaches, and if that's possible I think it would go a long way towards helping the initial gap. You do something along the lines of what you're pursuing, and you get rewarded with X ranks/SP. Or maybe As you graduate up the tiers of the ludus, the trainer there rewards you with one of the pieces of armor you're going to need (Lorica, helmet, etc) so you don't have to go make coin to buy that too.

                  The other gap I find isn't necessarily for new players, but more for when you leave the ludus (750 ranks). There ARE places you can go that fill this gap nicely, but I feel like all of them you kind of have to go out of your way to take advantage of, and some of them aren't great options if you're not wielding the right weapon. The ones that come to mind for me are Franlius, RV dumps, and the burnt villa. The 'limbo' that exists at this point I feel stretches out to about 1250 ranks, again depending on weapon, and is hard to beat because while you have options in those hunting grounds, they're very far away from each other. So now you're looking at travel time, money time, and training time. Either that, or you tough it out for 600 and finish your homework ranks. This obviously works, it's just not very engaging.

                  Perhaps the sweet spot comes with something like hunting ground specific jobs/quests. We seem to run into the problem a lot of a high ranking character going into a low level hunting grounds and cashing in on the profits, which gets the profits nerfed in turn for the new characters. Maybe instead of having the money in what you pick up, it's in what someone else asks you to do, then you can just set a rank cap and keep high ranking players from doing those jobs/quests. Sorry this is vague, I'll try and come up with some more specifics on this, just food for thought for now.
                  Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                  I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                  You mean it's true?
                  Originally posted by Phwoar
                  Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                  Originally posted by Elowynn
                  Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Adding free VC1 characters to premium accounts was a good step in the right direction. This should be expanded to the first few, let's say 5, characters on a new account. The potential for abuse is so low and so blatant that it shouldn't be a huge issue. I wouldn't risk my account standing over 25-50 talents.

                    Those sets of leather armor that are often sold in a specific color would be a good start for a combat character. This could maybe be added to the VC lounge for a small fee. Would allow characters to jump to slightly more difficult targets without having to grind out diving, mending nets, etc.

                    I can't speak to the actual newbie experience because it's been years. If things like aux chat are dead though this is really bad for the game. Perhaps allow accounts of a certain age the ability to apply for access to answer questions without typical IC aux access. If actual new people can't get in touch with experienced players for real-time help we can't expect to keep them around.

                    Point new accounts to the wiki if this isn't already being done. This is a GOOD resource, better than anything that has ever existed for this game. It's something I use on a weekly basis still.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hey guys lets try to keep everything positive , we are all wanting the same thing best experience and how to bring new people and some simple small ideas that could help.

                      I like simple easy things, maybe a small note : with simple directions on it or generalized :Mark will show you a list of generalized areas, toga bank etc. Weapons/xyz trainers can be found in the bronze lane area, you can walk to there. Outdoors folks you want to practice in this area etc.
                      Seems dumb but a here's where to go might help?
                      Thanks Tale for looking into this, and Siddhe for keeping the direction in the right way

                      "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        the problem with the game directly linking you to the wiki for things like typing help, it's an unofficial wiki, and doing that would make it official, which would also mean a lot of it would have to come down for some reason.

                        I'd offer some suggestions on how to improve the new player experience, but all I could offer is stuff to help the new character experience, once you're old and grey and actually know the game and what you're supposed to do.... it's still a PITA to start a new character, but at least you KNOW how to do it. A lot of new folk don't even know what to do, or how to ask... maybe teaching that in the tutorial ship would be a right start... how to ask for help?

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                        • #27
                          I think this has slightly divulged into 2 different topics, as starting a new character and being completely new to the game are very different beasts.

                          For brand new players:
                          I agree with Oz that the landing page is a big turnoff for new people coming in and as Lantraste mentioned, pointing newbies to the wiki, especially the "getting started" part would be really helpful. If someone is completely new to MUDs, the game can just be overwhelming, so being able to easily find the basics outside the game would help new players to "dive right in" more easily. The boat tutorial is helpful, but I think expanding upon it (if that's possible) would be the most beneficial thing for brand new people. ie: (I don't remember if it's included in the tutorial, but making sure players know they can use/how to use aux chat so they can get help from players in real time).
                          Originally posted by Atilu
                          You'd probably be happier if you just didn't come to the forums.
                          Nicarus says to you, "Ya should shadow me an' keep track o' things. We can call it tha Dew-y number-ic system or somethin'.... have to work on that"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Lantraste View Post
                            f things like aux chat are dead though this is really bad for the game. Perhaps allow accounts of a certain age the ability to apply for access to answer questions without typical IC aux access. If actual new people can't get in touch with experienced players for real-time help we can't expect to keep them around.
                            I like this suggestion. Broadening the number of people who are constantly accessible to help with aux questions is a good move. Current aux and trustees could have discretion to kick unhelpful people out (or temporarily mute them.)Even the worst players, though, don't tend to mess with real new players. I'd even go so far as to say aux channel could be 1) open to anyone, and 2) toggleable if you don't wanna listen to that chatter during your own RP, and 3) if you abuse it, aux/trustees can boot or mute you.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dewdropdoodles View Post
                              I think this has slightly divulged into 2 different topics, as starting a new character and being completely new to the game are very different beasts.

                              For brand new players:
                              I agree with Oz that the landing page is a big turnoff for new people coming in and as Lantraste mentioned, pointing newbies to the wiki, especially the "getting started" part would be really helpful. If someone is completely new to MUDs, the game can just be overwhelming, so being able to easily find the basics outside the game would help new players to "dive right in" more easily. The boat tutorial is helpful, but I think expanding upon it (if that's possible) would be the most beneficial thing for brand new people. ie: (I don't remember if it's included in the tutorial, but making sure players know they can use/how to use aux chat so they can get help from players in real time).
                              I really like this idea, and I'd suggest that the 'tutorial' feeling carries on through the NPC's you interact with after you get dropped off at Phaedra. Some options maybe being able to say hi to them and ask them questions, maybe have them explore lore you go on to ask players about, maybe offer jobs. I'm not sure how difficult this process would be, but having this ability with all NPC's would be amazing. I think True noobs need to be given the opportunity to explore the game themselves instead of landing on tracks, and having the climate be interactive as you fumble around might simulate something similar to what we all stumbled into with hundreds of players around us. I'd liken the atmosphere to something like Skyrim, where you don't have to pick up the plot and go for the main story (Diving, SP at Ludus), you can lose yourself in the sidelines (Asking Peggo about Tucheans).

                              Edit: Maybe it could be something like an @bank menu, but for NPC's. You type in @rp and you get a prompt that lets you know things you can ask about, jobs you may be able to acquire, relationships the NPC might have information about, or want to gossip on, etc. The question is, is a system like that too out of place in TEC?
                              Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                              I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                              You mean it's true?
                              Originally posted by Phwoar
                              Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                              Originally posted by Elowynn
                              Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                              Comment


                              • #30


                                I've added a note you'll see at the bottom of help files (or generates in your game window if you use a client that does the pop-up thing) that provides a link to the wiki for more info, maps, guides, etc as well as a disclaimer that labels it the "UnOfficial" wiki and that it is entirely player generated and maintained by dedicated players.

                                I'd planned to release that with some other newbie friendly content, but in all honesty it's too good a resource to not provide immediately.

                                Note: This will be removed if the wiki ever becomes toxic, wildly inaccurate in terms of mechanics, or the website is ever shut down in order to preserve player's experiences.
                                Game Master Tale
                                Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Creativity is putting tomatoes in a fruit salad to make mango salsa. Philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is actually a smoothie. Common Sense is knowing that no, ketchup is not a smoothie.

                                Comment

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