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  • #76
    Excessive basic ranks help to balance out agility. *beams*
    Amen to that.

    Tahngarth, Altene Hero

    WA name: Vanfanel

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    • #77
      *cackles, rubbing his hands together evilly*

      And to think I missed this delightful little set-to the first time around!

      Agility is the most important combat skill. It says it in the players guide. Period. Someone with inhuman agility will be an inhuman combatant. Someone with average agility will be an average combatant. *bows* I figured that one out by myself.

      Now, combat also has other things thrown in that have a factor. Speed, strength, and dexterity, and to a lesser part, perception, willpower, and endurance. All of which give other, lesser advantages. But still, agility is the main one.

      Here's something interesting. When fighting defensive, a grandmaster will have a signficantly better success to hit than someone unskilled. Which would imply that the opposite is also true, a grandmaster will be tougher to hit than an unskilled person, even when berserking. In my experience, this is true.

      Now, this agility discrepancy can be overcome with a lot of hard work. But if you're character is simply not naturally gifted as a warrior, you're going to have a tough time forcing it. And those who are naturally gifted will make you look like a chump much of the time. This holds true in basketball, which someone mentioned. I played a LOT, for several years. Shot baskets. Practiced dribbling. And know what? I still pretty much sucked. I love the game, but I had a couple of friends that didn't even play or practice much, and they took me to school pretty easily. One of whom was also about a foot shorter than me. I just don't have the natural ability. Part of it was offset by the work I put into it, but it was glaringly obvious.

      If you want to be the baddest fighter around, you can do that. Even if you are not naturally gifted. Why? Because of the obsticle course. Spend a couple thousand RPs and a couple of weeks, get your agility up there. We have the option to become whatever we want if we put the work into it.
      The Sunfish speaks.

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      • #78
        Don't flame Andrew, he's already flaming enough. JK

        Andrew makes pretty damn good posts, and he has brought up a point that is in the ever-ending controversial section that still needs to be tweaked: battle considerations.

        Yet, stats aren't skills - they're instinct/reactions and not calculated maneuvers. Sort of how an acrobat is better trained for flips than a neanderthal, though the neanderthal would be more suited to break rocks with a club (you get the point.. don't use this example in any replies, please 8). There's only so much that skill can do, whereas stats are something innate. So when considering that a person is harder to hit even when they're berserk (because of agility), it seems appropriate. Stats seem to be well balanced out and implemented.

        Thr problem is when there are superhuman characters with incredible stats. There should be a max on certain attributes depending on a person's ORIGINAL skill, like for speed for clubs and for strength for knives.

        I remember there was a character (let's call him Clark), that had every stat over or equal to above average, except the stats unnecessary for combat - i.e. Intelligence, Appearance, Charisma, etc. Basically, Clark was the neanderthal and acrobat in one. He was ecstatic while whispering to me why his character had the best combat potential and I totally agreed. I understand that there are athletes with raw talent, but no matter what weapon Clark chose, he had the potential to become the greatest wielder. Now that.. is absurd.

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        • #79
          Ummm..no.

          BEfore I start, I agreed with everything Bjergar said pretty much to this point.

          Originally posted by Bjergar
          I remember there was a character (let's call him Clark), that had every stat over or equal to above average, except the stats unnecessary for combat - i.e. Intelligence, Appearance, Charisma, etc. Basically, Clark was the neanderthal and acrobat in one. He was ecstatic while whispering to me why his character had the best combat potential and I totally agreed. I understand that there are athletes with raw talent, but no matter what weapon Clark chose, he had the potential to become the greatest wielder. Now that.. is absurd.
          No, it's not absurd. It's fiction. Fantasy. Or to put it another way, it's James Bond with no charisma, by the stats. Now --- how is he played? *shrug* I'll bet the individual plays him to be every bit as charismatic as James Bond. It's fantasy. The appeal of playing is in being able to be something you ordinarily couldn't be.

          I find the agility to be just fine. I think of it as natural skills not represented by numbers that you can see by the skill chart. Self-preservation is the basis for developing things like Armed Combat manuevers. I tend to think of trainers like Leda as one who has observed someone with a natural ability to dodge things, and working out a program by which others can approximate it for their safety.
          Brassy
          Originally posted by Max Powers
          There are a lot of options out there outside of screwing with rank bonus to accomplish balance. I am more worried about people getting bored of the game because there are zero roleplay goals to be had which leaves mechanical goals, and those are effectively being capped.

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          • #80
            It really does stop being an advantage when a character's basic is past 200. Basic is even cheaper than agility, but the GMs are rather relunctant to do anything so the abuse will continue.

            Viviana, allow all of us humble TEC players to thank you for having the foresight to say when an issue is a beaten horse. I mean, it does have a whole six pages..Could this be because one of your characters has rather good agility? Naw, of course not. Only us who are for change are whiny idiots.

            And, its about time for you to come back, Bjergar. We need Iridine top warrior to at least be literate.

            Andrew's player.

            Yeah, I love my high very good agility. So cheap. *beams*

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Andrew04
              .

              Viviana, allow all of us humble TEC players to thank you for having the foresight to say when an issue is a beaten horse. I mean, it does have a whole six pages..Could this be because one of your characters has rather good agility? Naw, of course not. Only us who are for change are whiny idiots.

              You're welcome Andrew. Since this is not the only thread on agility, I thought it needed pointing out. Sorry you couldn't get your agility higher than very good. I guess you need to work on it even more, just like the other rather high stats your character was created with. But I guess we can't have it all.

              I guess my point about perception is that agility is to combat as perception is to most non-combat skills. And above average mental and social stats won't help you one bit with non-combat. You actually need really high non-physical to be anything more than mediocre. And I think people really need to review what they know about the other physical stats effect on combat. I have messed around with different characters and found out some interesting things. The GMs don't advertise these things for obvious reasons. The best way I have found is to make a character with the same weapon, have them learn a few ranks of basics and a move, then hunt a little with them and delete them and create another character and compare.

              Viv

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              • #82
                *squints at Viv*
                Are you calling Macro a mediocre healer?
                *frowns*
                Macro

                There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not outside, not on other people. That comes afterwards, when you have worked on your own corner.
                - Aldous Huxley

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                • #83
                  Actually I think that initially high mental stats will help with healing but in the long run they will be a hindrance, much like with locksmithing, and outdoors basics.
                  The only area I can see that high mental stats can have a positive effect throughout your characters life is if he is a tailor.
                  Macro

                  There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not outside, not on other people. That comes afterwards, when you have worked on your own corner.
                  - Aldous Huxley

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Macro
                    *squints at Viv*
                    Are you calling Macro a mediocre healer?
                    *frowns*
                    No honey. Mediocrity is something you can overcome with training. Hmmm. Why does that sound familar? You have put a *lot* of work into him and now he is an excellent healer and a master physician to boot.

                    Viv

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Viviana
                      No honey. Mediocrity is something you can overcome with training. Hmmm. Why does that sound familar? You have put a *lot* of work into him and now he is an excellent healer and a master physician to boot.
                      OK. Fair point
                      Macro

                      There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not outside, not on other people. That comes afterwards, when you have worked on your own corner.
                      - Aldous Huxley

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Macro
                        Actually I think that initially high mental stats will help with healing but in the long run they will be a hindrance, much like with locksmithing, and outdoors basics.
                        The only area I can see that high mental stats can have a positive effect throughout your characters life is if he is a tailor.
                        See I don't see it as a hinderance ever. If you learn all the subskills and make sure you are successful in them a good part or all of the time before you drop your training moves to a success of 0, then how high you are in ranks really means nothing. If your goal is to teach, save up the sp before this point. To me, ranks mean nothing as long as you can succeed at the task. I don't know if I am making myself clear.

                        Viv

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                        • #87
                          Yes. But some of us don't like "saving up their sps" and may just want to teach.
                          I agree that ranks mean nothing if you can successfully carry out a task but if you raise your subs too high in some cases (say the success is zero) then you no longer gain sp from that move, ergo you are not gaining anything from being successful with that move.
                          With Macro for example my main aim was to get him to be successful all the time in most of his moves. It's just a bonus that in order to do this I had to bring the subs up to at least 10.
                          Macro

                          There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not outside, not on other people. That comes afterwards, when you have worked on your own corner.
                          - Aldous Huxley

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Um....I don't see how it's an abuse at all to train basics. It's how the system is set up, and no one is stopping anyone from training however they want to. Besides, it's a moot point because we've been told that soon, all basics will become like the tailoring basics, a reflection of your subskills.

                            Until then, it seems to be the most effective way to become a ferocious fighter. But since anyone can do it if they want, yelling "abuse" doesn't really seem to fit. Those that spend bazillions of sp selftraining basics are going to be out quite a bit when the change happens. *shrugs*
                            The Sunfish speaks.

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                            • #89
                              Besides, it's a moot point because we've been told that soon, all basics will become like the tailoring basics, a reflection of your subskills.
                              What does this mean? Basic is a high as your highest subskill? Same abuse if you just power-train an easy move... plus you'd get the benefit of basics AND a really high move.... I don't tailor, tried once and it hurt me brain.

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                              • #90
                                Best way to make a fighter is to self-train basic to impossibly high levels like 1000 so that you're able to fight in a normal posture. Basically you become unhittable and still have insane offense. Hopefully every fighter the GMs are forced to fix it.

                                Andrew's player.

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