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  • #31
    Am I incorrect in concluding that arrow damage has been significantly reduced? Was some random side effect of Tale's cocaine (Caffeine. Meant to type that first, but hey.) induced coding?
    [Success: 5, Roll: 91] You quickstep backwards, leveling an aim with your bow while in motion. You fire an arrow from a matte black short bow with bronze knuckles and iron spikes at a Cineran foot soldier. An arrow connects with a satisfying *THUNK*. He suffers a deep puncture to his neck.
    This would have been a strong severe. That's with outstanding strength and the berserker trait, to an unarmored area with 150 parting shot
    [Success: 5, Roll: 71] You fire an iron-tipped arrow from a matte black short bow with bronze knuckles and iron spikes at a man with a crooked nose. An iron-tipped arrow connects with a satisfying THUNK. He suffers a severe puncture to his neck.
    With an iron arrow, that would have easily been a gaping wound.
    I'm seeing lower damage across the board. Was this an intended change?

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    • #32
      • A bug in the damage mod code of archery attacks that was causing a doubling of damage when taking an attack past 100 has been fixed so the transition stays within the outlined progression. A full word category leap in damage when taking the skills from 100 to 101 was never intended in the damage progression and the proper values are now being called.
      RIP archery

      Its interesting after all these years that a bug that signifcant has only just been fixed.
      .

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Syden View Post
        [LIST]
        RIP archery
        This. The footshot change I can kind of understand. The addition of quickshot, though seemingly completely pointless in real combat situations was a nice attempt at compensating for the training issues that the change brought about. The damage reduction is too much. Weather or not it was a 'bug' originally, the set depends on it. It's a "Glass Cannon" skillset, as you said. It's now BARELY capable of 5th tier damage. To most archers with menial strength, it's simply impossible.

        Please reconsider changing it back to the way it was. I have one of the few PC archers in the game that isn't a bandit, and I had learned staves BEFORE the change to be able to keep up with the damage of the other weapons. I might as well just unlearn the set completely. Goodbye archery.

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        • #34
          You all do understand that this is a short bow archery set yeah? short bows were never known for exceptional damage, the fact that it gave exceptional damage was always odd to me personally, with so little effort. Confirmation that it was a bug, doesn't change the fact that it was a bug that went unnoticed for 19 years.

          Most powerful offensive skill, that requires least amount of training, suddenly gets it's damaged balanced to what everything else puts out, and because it's a nerf, that goes along with a buff of a new move to compensate for other changes, people are saying archery is dead. 101/101 is nothing compared to what other people have to do, and considering how few skills you actually need to train in archery to be a total judge dredd, I'm personally glad that archery got fixed damage wise.

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          • #35
            Words spoken by someone who obviously hasn't put much time into an archer. I have a top end archer. I can go to the docks, in berserk, with insane ranks, and have a 40 to headshot something. If I get lucky and get a stun, others can capitolize. I can then simply pull out my double mace with 100 ranks in spin strike and have a lower success and pull off 3 fractrues. You want to talk about balance?

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            • #36
              On top of the bugfix: The last jump in progression is no longer 101. I did add another damage increase further up the rank scale for the truly dedicated archers. (Note, this is an addition, not a moving of the previous 'last' jump). This applies to all archery attacks. "capping" at rank 100, while other skillsets had their final damage increases further down the line wasn't really in the spirit of balance (I'm under the assumption this was because all the other skills have had more attention over the years and have steadily progressed, while archery was just given a few neat attacks piece-meal so it didn't stagnate completely.)
              Game Master Tale
              Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Creativity is putting tomatoes in a fruit salad to make mango salsa. Philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is actually a smoothie. Common Sense is knowing that no, ketchup is not a smoothie.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Tale View Post
                On top of the bugfix: The last jump in progression is no longer 101. I did add another damage increase further up the rank scale for the truly dedicated archers. (Note, this is an addition, not a moving of the previous 'last' jump). This applies to all archery attacks. "capping" at rank 100, while other skillsets had their final damage increases further down the line wasn't really in the spirit of balance (I'm under the assumption this was because all the other skills have had more attention over the years and have steadily progressed, while archery was just given a few neat attacks piece-meal so it didn't stagnate completely.)
                To what end, I don't see the point. More grinding for archers to reach the point where they were at yesterday?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by The_thief View Post

                  To what end, I don't see the point. More grinding for archers to reach the point where they were at yesterday?
                  I think The_thief has a very important point. I see no reason for archers to train to high ranks at this point, or to have archers at all.

                  I've had an archer alt in the past, both a primary and then eventually secondary skill. The costs, effort and extremely limited circumstances under which archers can train made ranking up the skillset require far, far more effort than "regular" combat styles.

                  With "decent" stats (say, Very Good across the board), pre-nerf footshot did not do a great job of keeping something pinned. You'd have to invest in, or roll for, strength to get better but still not very consistent results. This meant you'd have to hunt with a group, or keep "kiting" while braving the possibility of packs spawning on your face. When "kiting," you often ran the risk of something despawning before you killed it - this issue has been talked to with GMs so many times I'm already turning blue just thinking about it. In one fatigue bar, I'd use about 60-80 arrows. I could kill about 6 mobs if they didn't despawn before I managed to damage them down - often only 3 if I were slow. This meant I would have to use iron arrows to do decent damage. I'd have to hunt something that paid well enough to recoup my costs, as I'd lose about 60-70% of them due to being unable to head out to pull arrows (mos+3 or so? per arrow?) to replenish my quiver, or due to being chased out by mob spawn. Most of the time, it was a lot of effort to not really break even. I stopped hunting anywhere except the treehouse, where I could use reeds and steal them back from the mid-room archer. I still wasn't making very good money, so I learned staves.

                  I would estimate an archer that has just the very basics to hunt at the treehouse requires about 3000-4000 SP. A training plan of about 200-250 SP (it's a little more difficult to reach 250 without a 5 move rotation, and archers had a 4 move rotation to train with even before footshot got wonked out) a week would take about 4 months, then, to have an archer that won't hit friends, has a rotation, and can hit from some distance away. Or, in 4 months, I can have a tailor who can make dozens of talents a day on the boards, or a staver who is about 50/50 across the board in 5 maneuvers and a chunk of defenses. Good enough to do the caravans, hunt the Old City in beater clothes, sewers, and finish training at the Slave Ludus for excellent, safe SP.

                  More ranks in archery than the "very basics" do not do anything to dramatically improve the archer. The staver, on the other hand, has the potential to become top end. Archers already had very little long-term appeal. Their entire appeal was predicated on being an extremely fragile glass cannon. Without fat damage, I'm not sure my staver will ever pull out her bow anymore. She can already fight at range, doesn't have to berserk to hit things, doesn't cost her ammo to swing, her damage is higher...

                  I was going to reserve my thoughts here until after I've tested the changes for myself, but I see no reason to continue training a useless skill. I'm told archery should be considered a "secondary skillset" - is it? Eh... my stick swings for free, hits harder, etc...?

                  I'm disappointed these changes were made with no pre-nerf player input, and no meaningful discussion with players afterwards. Talking to you, Sceadu, not Tale here. When is the last time you spent any appreciable time playing a combat character? Or any character at all? It pisses me off that the -enormous- amount of time it takes for players to earn - yes earn - their way to a usable character is often just obliterated. This game is a patchwork of thoughtless bandaids.

                  I see why Tale considered the damage modifier a bug, but if it was a bug, it was still the one reason post-footshot-f*ckery that might have made having an archer still be worthwhile. If damage is still decent after your most recent change, Tale, I would be interested to hear, but I'm no longer interested in testing it myself.

                  I feel the staff, none of whom I believe have experience with archers from a player perspective, would benefit from listening to feedback from the few dedicated players who ARE willing to use their time to earn and dump SP into an obviously effed skillset. Rinduck's time is taken for granted if his feedback is being ignored.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tale View Post
                    On top of the bugfix: The last jump in progression is no longer 101. I did add another damage increase further up the rank scale for the truly dedicated archers. (Note, this is an addition, not a moving of the previous 'last' jump). This applies to all archery attacks. "capping" at rank 100, while other skillsets had their final damage increases further down the line wasn't really in the spirit of balance (I'm under the assumption this was because all the other skills have had more attention over the years and have steadily progressed, while archery was just given a few neat attacks piece-meal so it didn't stagnate completely.)
                    Tale says "...for all archery attacks...." But, if I recall correctly, Rapid Fire success/damage was based on ranks of Basic Shot. Could somebody clarify for me?
                    [color=dark yellow]Verbal Crushings[/color]
                           &nbsp ;[color=dark yellow]Now Serving #[/color][color=royal blue]7[/color]


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                    • #40
                      You're correct, Enlightener. Think of Rapid Fire Shot as a noncom skill that makes your char perform two Basic Shots without having to manually load in between, and with some extra success-altering math in there for funsies. Personally, I like to call it Slow-Mo Shot, since at top speed, it's a second slower than just shooting two Basic Shots (Or three Quick Shots).

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                      • #41
                        Parting shot is now significantly weaker than the rest of the shots. Considering the fact that you need to load and then retreat, you might as well foot shot or just fall back. This wasn't an overpowered move, and I don't understand why I wasted all those skill points self training to get to the new damage max just to find out that it is all a huge waste. Please stop picking on archery.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bruhast View Post
                          You're correct, Enlightener. Think of Rapid Fire Shot as a noncom skill that makes your char perform two Basic Shots without having to manually load in between, and with some extra success-altering math in there for funsies. Personally, I like to call it Slow-Mo Shot, since at top speed, it's a second slower than just shooting two Basic Shots (Or three Quick Shots).
                          Thank, Bruhast. Since you seem knowledgeable, can you address the change in the ranks-to-damage threshold change, as well? I don't know much about the mechanics behind the game, but I'd really like to know what Tale was talking about when he discussed "capping" and "new damage tier" etc..

                          Thanks!
                          [color=dark yellow]Verbal Crushings[/color]
                                 &nbsp ;[color=dark yellow]Now Serving #[/color][color=royal blue]7[/color]


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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Enlightener View Post

                            Thank, Bruhast. Since you seem knowledgeable, can you address the change in the ranks-to-damage threshold change, as well? I don't know much about the mechanics behind the game, but I'd really like to know what Tale was talking about when he discussed "capping" and "new damage tier" etc..

                            Thanks!
                            Archery's damage is similar to unarmed that is based off the skills rank rather than your stats as the primary benefit. Tale's change basically was due to a bug occurring where archers were getting too much damage due to a typo in the code. So, he fixed the said bug and then changed the damage to scale up to a higher rank level (My guess is 201) in order to try to make up for having to correct a bug. The previously cap for damage increase threshold was 101.

                            Basically though, to make it simple. With archery, at ranks like 31/51/101/201 for basic shot your damage will increase when using basic shot due to reaching the threshold. So, the more ranks you have in a skill the more base damage it will be capable of reaching, including when it factors in arrow type, etc. The above mention thresholds may be inaccurate, was just an example. I'm not sure anyone knows the actual thresholds, but you could ask around. If it's similar to brawling the ones I mentioned are probably close.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Enlightener View Post
                              I agree with GinaDana. I know that the GM staff is underpaid, overworked, busy and dedicated - so, I'm not trying to complain too much. However, the change to Footshot is significant enough to warrant a dialogue between staff and players, considering that what may seem to be a small change is actually a big deal to archers, considering how few attacks they have.

                              Here's an attempt at some constructive feedback: I've never seen an NPC nor PC fail to free themselves from a Footshot on the first try; how about since the range of Footshot has been nerfed, the power could be enhanced? Find a balance between a knock-down and an impale?
                              I like your idea, and I like the guy who suggested Thigh/Groin shot...

                              Both are good constructive ideas, to make the people complaining, happier.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bruhast View Post
                                You're correct, Enlightener. Think of Rapid Fire Shot as a noncom skill that makes your char perform two Basic Shots without having to manually load in between, and with some extra success-altering math in there for funsies. Personally, I like to call it Slow-Mo Shot, since at top speed, it's a second slower than just shooting two Basic Shots (Or three Quick Shots).
                                What is this 'Quick shot" skill?

                                I saw an archer shooting what seemed to be a quickshot, i asked him what it was and he didn't answer...

                                Fern doesn't teach any "Quickshot"

                                Is this a move that exists somewhere in the game, not taught by Fern?

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