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Lets talk about staves.

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  • Lets talk about staves.

    The fact that probably 50% of the new veteran characters are stavers, and just about everyone in the game learns staves as a second weapon should attest that they are too strong. I know, I know. Any combat changes always comes with gripes. The only changes to combat lately has been the mass nerfing of bows (Still, why?) and so few people already used them, and I complained at Tale until he doesn't want to talk to me anymore, but now, next to no one uses them.

    Staves themselves have a strong offense and defense, but the main thing that gives them the edge in upper end combat is the nerf to rolling rise. Staves defensive sweep, despite the nerf, is still insanely accurate. If the target has a perfected rolling rise, it's about a 25% chance the rolling rise will fail entirely, and a 25% chance it will leave them with an opening. That means about half the time, they have an immediate opening for an arsenal of the strongest hitting triple attacks in the game. Any staver can use those openings to devastating effects. The crit rate on all 3 triple attacks are the HIGHEST of any weapon or maneuver in the game. I don't feel like I should feel crazy in thinking multi hitters should have weaker crits rather than stronger.

    EVERYONE IS LEARNING STAVES. THAT MUST MEAN ITS TIME TO LOOK AT STAVES.

  • #2
    Agree re: the utter ouch factor of rises.

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    • #3
      I agree, nerf them.

      Trained staves for a couple of months back in 2014, and I only had 100/80 staves when I went to the island.

      Iron capped staves are too fast. The subsequent multi hitters need to do less damage and have a decreased crit rate.

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      • #4
        I agree 100%. Stepping Spin+defensive sweep is literally OP. The set was already good before these due to the crazy parting attacks. I also think Multihtters across the board should have crit chance and quality reduced.

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        • #5
          Buff tridents.

          Three prongs. All jabbing and stabbing moves are triple hitters. Solved.

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          • #6
            Yeah. Staves have become a kind of perfect storm of all the best strategies and techniques that exist in the combat system. They were originally designed as a defense-oriented and support weapon, and they filled that role well. But over time many new skills and weapons have been introduced that have allowed them to become a jack-of-all-trades that is really the best-in-class for most of those trades.

            They've got one of the most solid defenses in the game with only a few blocks to train.

            They have three knockdown maneuvers, which is the most of any skillset. Two of those knock-downs outclass similar knock-down moves in most other skillsets (axe/club leg strike, trident/spear sweep) by being easier to learn and harder to block. The other one is capable of doing top-tier damage in addition to knocking the opponent down.

            They have the highest mobility with their parting moves and the greatest ease of changing stances of any skillset. Their mobility gives them a huge advantage because all of their moves besides the relatively unimportant longarm maneuvers are usuable at short or long range, which is a significant advantage over other skillsets such as tridents, spears, whips, or two-handed axes, which have to vary their distance to use some of their best moves. This advantage also allows staves to easily keep at a distance or close the distance when their opponent can't fight one way or the other.

            They have three triple-hitting maneuvers, which I believe is also the most of any weapon, all useable at any range. They also have access to top-tier damage with the introduction of the Altene Double-Mace. Previously, top-tier bruising damage was (IMO, appropriately) restricted to thematically more offensive weapons, like clubs, which have fewer other advantages.

            Personally I don't really think rolling rise is part of the problem - the knockdowns can still be dodged or blocked; rolling rise acts as a second line of defense against them, so it doesn't really matter if it's imperfect. But there are many other problems with staves. I'd love to see them return more to their defense and support-oriented roots.
            [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.

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            • #7
              I concur.

              #buffwhips
              .

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              • #8
                #canwegobacktooldgladii , i mean really gladii ugh
                "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                • #9
                  If only there was some kind of panel that would have tested staves a few years ago after all the big changes and claimed that they were insanely OP. You could even pick a color for that panel, and give them a pretty ribbon. Or, hold a tournament to test those changes where everyone had identical stats/ranks.

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                  • #10
                    Japes was making some great changes and solidifying / balancing skillsets, but I feel like he just threw in the towel and quit half way through.
                    The BRP was a great way (after all the bickering) to put the blame of combat balances on the players rather than giving the GMs more grief, maybe they should bring it back XD

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rinduck View Post
                      Japes was making some great changes and solidifying / balancing skillsets, but I feel like he just threw in the towel and quit half way through.
                      The BRP was a great way (after all the bickering) to put the blame of combat balances on the players rather than giving the GMs more grief, maybe they should bring it back XD
                      Well, we all pretty much said staves got way too boosted, then he boosted them even more with the sweep/stand RT changes. His heart was in the right place, but then he disappeared. Huge changes, like adding stance changing/multihitters, need to be followed up by months and months of tweaks or else you can pretty much guarantee something is going to be broken.

                      The huge pendulum swing of nerf/boost with years in between changes seems to create most of the problems.

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                      • #12
                        Significant changes have been made in the Staves skill set. The moves Stepping Spin and Defensive sweep both used to be a MOS attack, and the triple-hitting Stepping Spin could be aimed at specific locations which was changed to only allow it to be targeted High, Mid and Low. Without going into deep detail, defensive sweep has plenty of penalties on its own. In addition to those, Parting Smash saw a reduction in its round time due to abuses with an Altene Double mace. The move was way too fast prior to the change when using the Double Mace. Other skill sets have moves that can hit with similar accuracy as defensive sweep, and we are not likely to change that. If every skill set were the same, our combat system would be pretty boring.

                        As it stands, the staves skill set is mostly balanced in comparison to other skill sets. Every set has its own strengths and weaknesses, that that is what makes our combat system dynamic, and it is unlikely to change much. It is also unlikely that a new panel for combat will be created. That does not stop players from testing things on their own and providing feedback via @report or @request under suggestions.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pranzor View Post
                          Significant changes have been made in the Staves skill set. The moves Stepping Spin and Defensive sweep both used to be a MOS attack, and the triple-hitting Stepping Spin could be aimed at specific locations which was changed to only allow it to be targeted High, Mid and Low. Without going into deep detail, defensive sweep has plenty of penalties on its own. In addition to those, Parting Smash saw a reduction in its round time due to abuses with an Altene Double mace. The move was way too fast prior to the change when using the Double Mace. Other skill sets have moves that can hit with similar accuracy as defensive sweep, and we are not likely to change that. If every skill set were the same, our combat system would be pretty boring.

                          As it stands, the staves skill set is mostly balanced in comparison to other skill sets. Every set has its own strengths and weaknesses, that that is what makes our combat system dynamic, and it is unlikely to change much. It is also unlikely that a new panel for combat will be created. That does not stop players from testing things on their own and providing feedback via @report or @request under suggestions.
                          I'm not understanding why you insist on defending staves when 99% of the game agree's that they're over powered.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The_thief View Post

                            I'm not understanding why you insist on defending staves when 99% of the game agree's that they're over powered.
                            I am stating facts and giving a staff response on the topic of Staves in regards to the likelihood of it changing. What I insist on is ensuring that our combat system remains diverse and that every weapon is still unique in its use.

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                            • #15
                              if by diverse, you mean one weapon stands among the rest as extremely overpowered, even after the few tweaks you've made over the last few years, then yes. Staves are very diverse. I definitely appreciate the feedback from the staff, but if you could take a moment to review the changes to rolling rise, and how it gave staves a huge boost to staves in high end pvp combat, you might at least take another look at that? Staves tridents and spears are the only weapons in the game that can trigger rolling rise, and spears and tridents' sweep are extremely difficult to land in comparison to staves.

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