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  • #31
    Originally posted by Syden View Post
    Kudos to the changes.

    Bring on Whips Parting Slash and Stepping Scourge!
    That is a great idea!
    .

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    • #32
      Cross block now stops mid chops/smashes... wow Avros is really useless now. Also, glad to see with all the issues cesti have, removing them when walking past NPCs was taken care of.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Ilkilyn View Post

        This is to reduce randomness and make it more clear that your actions are what's giving the bonus, so knowing what moves are front and what are back is important during PVP, and you don't feel like you get screwed when you get a +1 instead of +19

        Overall I don't think Knives needs much of a change, my knifer feels well balanced and is just moves like backhand I feel I should be able to do a bit more reliable damage on instead of hoping for a crit. Faceslash change is just coming from the fact that I hate the idea of repeat bleeds from the same spot to cause a ko. Knives should make you bleed from 20 spots, not 20 bleeds from the same one. Knives for me has always felt like a, feint here then crit slash there kind of set, so faceslash to stun, and then a real hit from backhand or markhad to follow makes more sense. Faceslash would be more superficial compared to solid damage to the body from the follow up
        There's a dramatic -20-30 point difference in accuracy for Knives versus every weapon that is mid-tier to high even with back-to-forth motion. You're talking about a weapon that basically force aims into the enemies 'best' defensive layering with every single best attack they have. Yeah, Knives still have their strength like destroying prone enemies. But, to say they're balanced with how bad their overall accuracy is means you need to beta room compare them to every other weaponset at similar ranks. Outside of chop or just really far behind enemies, Ciaran literally can't land a single attack without a 95 outside of chop. This isn't just a 'top tier' thing. The majority of other weapons, even some on the lower tier totem can do better in a top tier fight in accuracy.

        Pretty sure I even have straight 95s on Brudox at this point and Knives are virtually a complete counter to his weapon because of his bad slashing/disarm defense.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ciaran View Post

          There's a dramatic -20-30 point difference in accuracy for Knives versus every weapon that is mid-tier to high even with back-to-forth motion. You're talking about a weapon that basically force aims into the enemies 'best' defensive layering with every single best attack they have. Yeah, Knives still have their strength like destroying prone enemies. But, to say they're balanced with how bad their overall accuracy is means you need to beta room compare them to every other weaponset at similar ranks. Outside of chop or just really far behind enemies, Ciaran literally can't land a single attack without a 95 outside of chop. This isn't just a 'top tier' thing. The majority of other weapons, even some on the lower tier totem can do better in a top tier fight in accuracy.

          Pretty sure I even have straight 95s on Brudox at this point and Knives are virtually a complete counter to his weapon because of his bad slashing/disarm defense.
          Truth flows from his finger tips.

          Also, I think a larger issue is a lack of speed vs power balance. Slow weapons aren't really that slow in most cases, so weapons that in theory rely on speed and utilities don't really have an advantage over "slower" ones. Some weapons have no real way to open someone up other than going zerk/aggressive (without the benefit of a stance changer) and hoping for the best, this wouldn't be an issue if tankier weapons weren't also swinging at the same speed but with more power. Also, triple hitters being faster and or the same speed as similar single hitting moves in the same skill set while bringing more damage to the table has always been baffling to me.

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          • #35
            Staves got a boost and "chopping" weapons got a nerf? I am so confused.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by lykatos View Post

              Truth flows from his finger tips.

              Also, I think a larger issue is a lack of speed vs power balance. Slow weapons aren't really that slow in most cases, so weapons that in theory rely on speed and utilities don't really have an advantage over "slower" ones. Some weapons have no real way to open someone up other than going zerk/aggressive (without the benefit of a stance changer) and hoping for the best, this wouldn't be an issue if tankier weapons weren't also swinging at the same speed but with more power. Also, triple hitters being faster and or the same speed as similar single hitting moves in the same skill set while bringing more damage to the table has always been baffling to me.
              I approval of this message. Virtually everything you said was correct. Knives are literally the same speed as virtually 75% of other skillsets with absolutely no accuracy, and no ability to fix the lack of accuracy without going aggressive to get more than likely blown apart before they can blow you apart. Doesn't help there's a billion stuns like edge, pard stun counters this further, or attacks like ankletrap/sweeps. Knives have absolutely no 'good' way to make up for it. If they were at least still MOS they could get more attacks in to remotely make it fair. Knives is plain and simple a dps weapon, they have no sweeps, no real stuns, no real disarms. All they can do is attack and hope for a critical. And, considering I have gone 30-31 attacks on someone in a 1v1 before and only got one critical, which was from stomp.. not like Knives have a real crit rate, in fact I firmly believe even with Cineran national bonus, knife might have one of the worse crit rates in the game.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Max Powers View Post
                Staves got a boost and "chopping" weapons got a nerf? I am so confused.
                It's not really a boost, if you're commenting to defensive sweep. It makes it no longer spammable to fix your stance without reapproach, it forces you to use stepping spin before using defensive sweep for a smooth fighting pattern. It also makes it a lot less easy to spam sspin on a down enemy. On top of all of that, unless you're banditting in a group, it basically makes you auto retreat with your best sweep to let them walk off now. In a few small cases the parting for defensive-sweep is a benefit, but overall, its a nerf. Going to be annoying as crap in PvE too in big groups of npcs.

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                • #38
                  Things just keep getting worse and worse.

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                  • #39
                    Kudos to the GMs for listening to feedback and making some changes. I hope we can keep this discussion productive; I don't think the GMs are trying to ruin anyone's lives here. The combat system is never going to be perfect, but I think in general it's in a pretty good state. Staves were called out in this thread because they stand out as a weapon that seems unfairly imbalanced toward the very top right now.

                    Sounds like the change to Defensive Sweep will help a bit. We'll see what happens after that change has been out in the wild for a while. I'm a bit more leery about the block tweaks that were included with this batch of changes, but I haven't tested them so I'll reserve any final judgements for another day. My initial thought is that having some defensive holes, as long as they're not too numerous, is a good thing - those holes tend to be what make certain specific weapon match-ups interesting in PvP, and it's rare that they throw the entire fight. For example, the chop mid hole is one that's been around forever, and it did seem to be important to a good number of skillsets that don't have a lot of other good offensive tactics. As a whip-user who has chop mid as my main defensive hole, I have seen it give certain fighters a better chance to hit me, but I can't say I ever felt that it was so overwhelming that it unfairly threw a fight in my opponent's favor. That hole seemed like a good one to have around. I don't have as much experience with whirling block in PvP, so I'm not sure how significant that change is.

                    I do agree that certain weapons, such as knives, used to have a speed advantage, and they seem to have lost something. From my experience I don't think they're in a horrible spot compared to other weapons right now, though. If we want to focus on fixing the least powerful weapons, knives are not the weapon I would choose. Thinking back... the equalization of roundtimes across weapons I think was something that was done to make it so that feints weren't overpowered fight-winners for faster weapons, wasn't it? If so, I think the better way to represent speed in the current combat system is to give the "faster" weapons more double and triple-hitting strikes. And to limit the number of those for the "slower" weapons, while still keeping the actual roundtime similar across weapons, as it is now. If we wanted to go more down that road, I agree that it might be worth considering changing stepping spin to a double-strike. But I'm not sure exactly what changes would be needed in that world on a broader level.
                    [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Syden View Post
                      Give all skill sets stepping parting and defensive moves.
                      That is the smartest thing ever said on these forums.
                      .

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                      • #41
                        I think Doublecut and Whirl should auto-aim high for knives.

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                        • #42
                          Can we give basic gladii a triple hitter a step back attack a face stunner a triple bash knock down and a snare hook
                          "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                          • #43
                            #MakeBasicGladiiViableAgain
                            #GiveWhipsAPartingMoveAndSteppingMove
                            #WeLoveCombatChangesKeepItUp
                            .

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                            • #44
                              This made me laugh
                              "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ciaran View Post

                                I approval of this message. Virtually everything you said was correct. Knives are literally the same speed as virtually 75% of other skillsets with absolutely no accuracy, and no ability to fix the lack of accuracy without going aggressive to get more than likely blown apart before they can blow you apart. Doesn't help there's a billion stuns like edge, pard stun counters this further, or attacks like ankletrap/sweeps. Knives have absolutely no 'good' way to make up for it. If they were at least still MOS they could get more attacks in to remotely make it fair. Knives is plain and simple a dps weapon, they have no sweeps, no real stuns, no real disarms. All they can do is attack and hope for a critical. And, considering I have gone 30-31 attacks on someone in a 1v1 before and only got one critical, which was from stomp.. not like Knives have a real crit rate, in fact I firmly believe even with Cineran national bonus, knife might have one of the worse crit rates in the game.
                                I agree that Knives should have some moves reduced by 1 second rt, but not all. Other than that I disagree with most of the sentiment here. Shield sap for stun, pushaside for disarm. And the critical part... seriously??? my knifer doesn't even have over 200 dex and crits more than twice as often as my "strong" character. Because of this, he can do equal or more damage because of markad slash, doublecut and whirling slash and double critting the body and faceslash critting the face. You want the multi's to aim high or something? why? so they hit the hands and arms and those crits do less damage?

                                And btw, when 2 HAX and knives go berserk against each other, knives win. Why? Crits and stuns. Your faceslash will stun far more often than my sap. Your random crits will knock down, change my stance, stun me, disarm me, etc. All my hits just do base damage. Check my out my last fight vs Amyn, this is exactly what happened. Despite me getting devestating cut after devestating cut, fractures to the head, that base damage is NOT what it seems to be, while those knife crits took 20-40 hp per attack and most often also changed something else like disarm.

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