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  • #61
    The cost of training is more meant to be a 'money' dump to drain talents from the game on purpose. The reality is, new players can't even remotely afford it. It's a firm deterrence from any truly new player wanting to play the game.



    There's also the oddness of certain trainers being vastly unranked compared to other skillsets. I'm still dumbfounded how the 'Nelsor' trainer only teaches to 50 ranks in a city built around gladiators in a way. There's a reason we dont see a lot of weapon diversity and its not just on the lack of combat balance for some weapons.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Felisin View Post

      So you would rather it be difficult for new characters of even new players to get lessons for all the under utilised skills?

      Hey, welcome to TEC. Oh you want to use a Trident to fit in wit the Character type you are going for? Sure spend many hours looking for a trainer or spend many hours grinding away to earn enough coin to buy those 10 combat ranks.

      If you remove pointless barriers it will increase people's gaming experience... I also expect that the total money spent on buying lessons from NPC's is rather insignificant... at the current cost it takes 8t to take any ability to 100 with an NPC trainer. So if you can't find someone to teach you from our already limited playerbase... then you are pushing crap up hill with a fork.
      You appear to be intentionally conflating two different things. 1) Speed in which you can raise levels and 2) base access to trainers and skills. The two are not at all related. I like the idea of adding more trainers to increase access. It'd allow players to "get their foot in the door" with the base knowledge.

      But reducing training costs does nothing to increase access to skills. Reducing training costs makes it easier and faster to min/max your training by being more efficient with your sp. That's about players wanting to level up faster; it has nothing to do with access. And in a game like TEC, in which you're supposed to spend months and years honing and crafting your character, speed leads to quick burnout and is not what we want. You want to train faster? Make a friend.

      I don't know what percentage training costs accounts for in terms of denar sinks, but it's clearly not enough. Players have tons of money, and too much leads to rapidly inflating prices, particularly for mechanic-neutral customization of equipment and items. That's kind of thing that should be more accessible (read: cheaper) to enable rp and general customizable enjoyment of the game. But as it stands now, a new player has to price-compete with those who have thousands of talents in the bank; THAT pushes new players out more than having to slow down your training because you self-train. I mean, we even have a trait "self taught" that reduces the burden further for those who do want to self-train.

      It's actually a very good thing that you can't go from 0-1000 in a week in a subscription-based, rp-based game. Slow down and earn coin to spend or make a friend.
      Those who are afraid of the dark have never seen what the light can do.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Syden View Post
        I don't know what weapon you wield or who you play, but I and lots of other people train everyone who asks, for free. I'm also sure there are lots of people who will help you get a better weapon.

        I do agree though, the gold cost of training is pretty high. I have been training cestus this year and because there are hardly any PC cestus wielders in game, it costs me 12talents to take a move from 0 to 80. Multiply that by the 15+ moves I've had to learn and i've spent 180 talents just on cestus lessons this year. There is no way a new player can do that.

        #ICantWaitForNewWhipsMoves
        You're complaining that it takes 180 talents to take 15 moves to 80 in a year?

        1) Selftrain. No costs to that if making isk is a problem. The only mandatory cost is the first rank (2.5 denars a move...).
        2) Don't choose a skill with so few wielders if you want to do something fast and cheaply.
        3) If you DO want to be one of the only cestii-wielders, then be prepared to absorb an opportunity cost for that.

        A new player absolutely can do it. They just can't do it as fast as another weapon wielder. A new player without any patience cannot do it.It's called making a choice, folks.

        This argument really boils down to, "I don't want to pay a voluntary cost because I don't want to slow down my training. Nor do I want to burn a positive trait in chargen for something that would take away from my min-maxing my combat character." Really?

        Trust me, folks, the ramifications of having no denar-sinks are FAR worse.
        Those who are afraid of the dark have never seen what the light can do.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by brokenlantern View Post
          I want to chime in as a new player, and say the cost of training and event experience last night almost lost a paid player. I can't really participate in the community because of having 100's of skill points I can't use because there is no trainer, and grinding 1,000's of denars a day doesn't work because I also can't get armor or other things they character needs to progress.

          All week, I had been waiting for a role-play opportunity for my character, and I attend an event where I'm put against someone with a full suit of armor, with non-starter weapons and every hit for them is a 5 and for me is a 95. Then get mocked as if it's my fault I'm not spending any time training on weapons. I then try to join a group of players who are going on an adventure, and I can't, because it becomes a discussion about how one side wants to do something my character can't handle. So was back to the ludus to play alone...

          I am still at this point considering canceling my subscription, I can't do anything but fight on the same island and dive for the same pearls
          With my new characters, do you know how I make most of my coin? I go to the Traveant and scavange armor from corpses after a TM muster. Or I go to the alleys and ask for the pouches and daggers from those fighters who don't take them. For one, I simply skinned the wings from gulls, shells from crabs, pelts from pups, and meat from snappers on the island. Earning coin isn't very hard in this game, if you know how to do it. Any of those three can more than cover your initial training costs until you can survive the caravans between Iridine and Blackvine.

          Hell, even sign up for the caravans and run at the first sign of trouble. You just need one attempted attack (not even a successful attack!) to earn your pay with the caravan drover. You can pick up loot from any of the drover's or hired guards' kills.
          Those who are afraid of the dark have never seen what the light can do.

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          • #65
            So, the solutions are either to play the game as a Solo game doing self training, or become a beggar constantly asking every person you see to give you items or things?

            I'm not saying there shouldn't be a grind for skills, but the grind should be where it belongs, in the weapon and not the cost of training. I would rather spend a week fighting to go up 10 ranks, than spend a week swimming to go up 10 ranks

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Catuluscaesar View Post

              With my new characters, do you know how I make most of my coin? I go to the Traveant and scavange armor from corpses after a TM muster. Or I go to the alleys and ask for the pouches and daggers from those fighters who don't take them. For one, I simply skinned the wings from gulls, shells from crabs, pelts from pups, and meat from snappers on the island. Earning coin isn't very hard in this game, if you know how to do it. Any of those three can more than cover your initial training costs until you can survive the caravans between Iridine and Blackvine.

              Hell, even sign up for the caravans and run at the first sign of trouble. You just need one attempted attack (not even a successful attack!) to earn your pay with the caravan drover. You can pick up loot from any of the drover's or hired guards' kills.
              So, I could go and play a cheaper game with visuals if I wanted one where I exploited the mechanics to play it. I thought this was a role-playing game, so no, I wouldn't expect a drover to pay me if I ran at the first sign of trouble.

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              • #67
                Get yourself a cheap knife from the junk shop, kill animals and take their skin/hide/pelt/shell... sell it to caprarius, you'll get enough money to train, through fighting, doing that, even if you don't know how to skin.
                Learn hunting and get better at skinning to earn more money from fighting.
                Make friends with people, there are a lot of new vet characters out there right now due to an influx of death fairly recently, make friends with them, and they can help you, even if that help is just having a good time with someone. Sure they'll probably be better than you, but not by a large amount. Clubs went out of style when rubico died, so, yeah, not a lot of people know it to teach it. Sorry, but there is at least one other person who's pretty good in clubs.

                Don't think of it as being a beggar though, everyone needs help sometime, no man is an island unto himself. Even the top tier guys still ask for help sometimes, for something.

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                • #68
                  There are plenty of ways to make coin in that shouldnt require non stop swimming (which im told is agood money maker) several are mentioned above as well are just get folks together and go skinnig
                  "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Catuluscaesar View Post

                    You're complaining that it takes 180 talents to take 15 moves to 80 in a year?

                    1) Selftrain. No costs to that if making isk is a problem. The only mandatory cost is the first rank (2.5 denars a move...).
                    2) Don't choose a skill with so few wielders if you want to do something fast and cheaply.
                    3) If you DO want to be one of the only cestii-wielders, then be prepared to absorb an opportunity cost for that.

                    A new player absolutely can do it. They just can't do it as fast as another weapon wielder. A new player without any patience cannot do it.It's called making a choice, folks.

                    This argument really boils down to, "I don't want to pay a voluntary cost because I don't want to slow down my training. Nor do I want to burn a positive trait in chargen for something that would take away from my min-maxing my combat character." Really?

                    Trust me, folks, the ramifications of having no denar-sinks are FAR worse.
                    I don't know what happy pills you took today, I wasn't really complaining, I was agreeing with the earlier poster. It wasn't a year it was about 10 weeks but details don't matter. I took the leap of faith and learned cestii so I could be that guy that trains everyone who wants to use it and so far I have 3 people who constantly come to me for lessons.

                    Kudos to me and let me know when you want me to test these new whip moves Pranzor



                    ​​​​​​
                    .

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                    • #70
                      Wait wait wait Syden, how do you get more whip moves, where is my gladii love! This is clearly a plot
                      "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                      • #71
                        Lets try not to drive the thread too off topic. Great changes overall, and headed the right direction for sure. I really like stance changing moves, and they're an excellent way to add to the fluidity of combat. I feel like 'stepping chop' are a bit more realistic than some of the game changers like stepping spin or defensive sweep, however. Would be nice to see more stance changing moves trickle into each skill set over time.

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                        • #72
                          Let me break this down...


                          A lot of changes hit us at once, possibly without proper testing beyond a beta arena thing that lasted what... a couple weeks? Let's go over these changes and the problems that they have presented.

                          1) In August of 2013 stepping maneuvers begun to be added to the game after 17 years of existing meta. Some weapons got two, some weapons got one, some weapons got none. How is that fair? Whips, Knives, Cestus, and Swords were all left with their nuts dangling in the wind. Now you have people running around with barely trained staves, able to glide in and out of triple hitting someone with stepping spin in 1+mos with an iron capped stave, to stepping back down within 1+mos. This doesn't give those folks any time to react, especially those who have to spend 2+mos manually changing stances at max speed.

                          2.) In September of 2013 the Speed Mechanics were changed. This was major change in terms of lessening the effect of max outstanding speed to those with stat skills. It effectively removed MOS moves, making certain folks like knives feel like they got the shaft on their tin weapons.

                          2) In March of 2014 Franlius re-opened along with weapon reforging (there's also the Nehal enchanting for those without metallic weapons) effectively destroying the meta that existed where retalq were king of damage. Coupled with the speed changes and people now able to get a reforged +10 damage weapon, this also provided yuggeeee changes to the meta.


                          Minor notes, but still major to some (probably missed some things but these stand out):

                          - Stomp became 25% harder to knock down while wielding a weapon and an additional 25% harder to knock down while also wielding a shield.
                          - Avros and Nelsor were reduced to dung status with the shield changes and Nelsor leaving openings while actually using a shield and not holding their sword with two hands.
                          - Bows were nerfed to utter uselessness.
                          - Roundstrikes were nerfed to zero damage at some point as well, due to one person abusing it. Not sure if this has been fixed yet as I haven't been afforded the opportunity to test.



                          To clarify,

                          - I don't think we can simply delete reforging/enchanting (even though it was taken away once before), the new weapon damage meta is here to stay and I don't think it really affected much besides the min-maxers clamoring for a +1 and a slight boost in dmg.

                          - The speed changes sorta were for the better, but I feel it made some weapons imbalanced with the way triple hitters work (i.e. staves). It enabled me as a staver who trained for a couple months before I quit back in 2014, to go to the island and defeat a couple people whom I probably should have gotten thrashed by. It's case in point to the imbalance of that weapon in general from speed and...

                          - Stepping moves. This was the biggest issue to me. I feel that everyone should at least get ONE stepping move, if this kneejerk change to the long standing combat balance is going to stay. I feel that if you're a defensive minded skillset you should get a down-stepper, offensive minded skillsets should get an up-stepper. I don't think that staves and spears should have two stepping moves going in either direction. Why does axes have two upstepping moves? Just give everyone ONE move. Start with a step up for whips and knives. Or just delete all the stepping moves in general because they weren't properly tested from the start.

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                          • #73
                            I would actually have to agree with a lot of that. Brawling/pank and knives got hit hard during the speed re-work. They were one of the few skillsets that could boast more than one or two MOS attacks. Both skillsets have been suffering since.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Rinduck View Post
                              I would actually have to agree with a lot of that. Brawling/pank and knives got hit hard during the speed re-work. They were one of the few skillsets that could boast more than one or two MOS attacks. Both skillsets have been suffering since.
                              I almost completely forgot about unarmed, considering Jeanine was unarmed for quite a while. At least the knees and strike and rise got sped up by a second, so things seem to be getting a bit better here and there for the unarmed skillsets. I might end up picking it up as a secondary on my noob one day. Still probably best to rpalm someone's neck repeatedly when they're stunned and grounded, though.

                              I would love to see the BRP make a return, but listen to each other a bit more this time.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Rinduck View Post
                                I would actually have to agree with a lot of that. Brawling/pank and knives got hit hard during the speed re-work. They were one of the few skillsets that could boast more than one or two MOS attacks. Both skillsets have been suffering since.
                                I pretty much agree with both of you, which is rare.

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