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  • #76
    #MakeWhipsGreatAgain
    .

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    • #77
      #StillWaitingForWhipsMoves
      #IWillUnlearnStavesForNewWhipsMoves
      .

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      • #78
        Soon as they normalize gladii damage where’s my instant deaths with sap
        "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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        • #79
          You just need an Altene double-gladius, Kered.
          [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.

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          • #80
            my heart died inside
            "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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            • #81
              So....bump? Every staver won tonight. The cause? Rolling rise failures. The frequency in which rolling rise fails is simply too high. Half the characters in the game still use staves. Your mini nerfs do nothing.

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              • #82
                Um...I didn't win with a pillow stick.

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                • #83
                  Anything with a sweep is going to win, especially when you have a round time to stand up after being swept.

                  Staves: Sweep > triple bash > another kind of sweep > triple bash > another form of sweep > triple bash > did I mention sweep?
                  Spears: Sweep > Impale x 10000 (If you got the speed)

                  Heck, I remember Milizinivi training nothing but sweep and triple bash and taking out top tiered players while in berserk with just those two moves and he was trash with everything else.

                  I don't think PCs have a round time when it comes to standing from a stomp, which is silly since because it's kind of a "Sweep".

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                  • #84
                    Sweep itself is not a bad thing. It suits the weapon well - it was originally intended to be a support and utility weapon. It should have the best sweeps in the game.

                    The problem with staves remains their unique combination of triple-hitting and bi-directional stance changing maneuvers. Those combinations are unmatched by any other weapon skillset, and they're extremely lethal.

                    Staves are the only weapon skillset with BOTH a triple-hitting skill and an aggressive up-step maneuver. Furthermore, those two things are combined into a single skill, stepping spin, that does not have any high mid or low aiming restrictions. Furthermore, it's only average difficulty and it is quite difficult to block, both when it aims high by default and when it is aimed low. In addition, staves have two more triple hitting maneuvers, one of them that is very good, that can be used immediately after the first aggressive up-step triple hit. That means the opponent is getting surprised by an aggressive stance change and either suffers 3 - 6 hits before even being able to respond in any way or suffers 3 hits from stepping spin and then is immediately swept by defensive sweep and the staver returns to a balanced stance before the opponent can take advantage of their aggressive switch. Particularly those skillsets without stepping maneuvers.

                    Other skills with triple hitting maneuvers have fewer of them, have more restrictions around them, and cannot compliment them with stance-changing moves.
                    • CKF Triple cut is Difficult and it requires taking up a secondary skillset to use. It is defended by average and easy blocks.
                    • Avros Needle strike is Average difficulty but it goes against two easy defensive layers by default.
                    • Whips Sky Scourge is Difficult and it is blocked by an easy dodge and average blocks.
                    • Whips Lykatos' Scourge is probably the best non-staves triple hit out there. It is comparable to stepping spin except that: it has no stance-changing advantage and it cannot be aimed low (which is a big deal - many weapons have poor low defense, and low injuries are more likely to knock down opponents and end a fight).
                    The power of stepping spin in the TEC combat meta continues to be underestimated.
                    [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.

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                    • #85
                      Something does need to be done regarding this. Let us consider

                      Staves are tied for fastest weapon in the game.
                      Staves is 2nd in max potential damage per attack.
                      Staves have three triple hitters while most other weapons do not have any multi hitters.
                      Staves now have no defensive holes unique to them...or a "weak spot" to take advantage of.
                      Staves have three sweeps that do not suffer repeat penalty from each other.
                      One of these sweeps is specifically designed to defeat shields...meaning most 1h fighters have less defense against a sweep than a staver does with three times the effort put in for a 1h fighter.
                      Staves have an offensive and defensive stance change move while most fighting sets don't even have one.


                      Staves accomplishes this with two skillsets. While some extra sets can be argued as being supplemental to many 1h fighting styles, what cannot be debated is that 1h axes requires three sets, while knives and gladii require four.

                      Regarding the stance changing moves. Why is it faster to change your stance and hit something three times than just changing your stance? If anything it should be slower than manually changing stances. This one change will dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the standard stave beat down combo...THEN we can look if things need more balancing.

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                      • #86
                        I don't know why my posts keep being tagged as spam: reposting this.

                        That every single PVP staver goes for the same variation of this combo - a very fast stepping spin move, very fast d-sweep, moving putting their opponent in roundtime, and is then able to follow this up with a painful triplebash - is pretty telling. Every single one. And every single top-end fighter ends up learning staves, because of this very same 3-maneuver series -- personally, I'm trying to resist, but it's getting hard to ignore the utter domination factor of this series. This combination needs to have limitations.

                        - Being able to go aggressive (and utilize the aggressive RB) for a stepping spin is... weird, but all right. It should really use the RB of a normal maneuver. (Let's assume for simplicity's sake we're talking about going up from a normal stance.)
                        - Being able to utilize the aggressive RB for a d-sweep doesn't make sense with the above. One or the other should get the aggressive RB, not both.
                        - Being able to consistently d-sweep before an opponent can respond to a stepping spin is the largest imbalance.

                        The roundtime of Stepping Spin needs +1 second.

                        This leaves Stepping Spin as an aggressive stance-changing maneuver for a staver, but does not allow an immediate follow up with d-sweep within their opponent's roundtime. Should the staver time his Stepping Spin cleverly, however, it's still a feasible combo - just not a nearly guaranteed/insta-triplebash-to-the-face spammable move, x 10.

                        This is a 3 move maneuver that accomplishes many things. It should take time. It should take planning. Imagine: Opponent fumbles and drops his weapon. Staver now knows it may take Opponent roundtime (MOS+2) plus a little bit longer to pick up his weapon and rewield it = this is the opportunity for a stepping spin (now MOS+2) + dsweep + triplebash. In this scenario, the 3-move series took the player's timing, skill to execute.

                        Do we really want a buncha staver clones with the same 3 move combo just because it's spammable?

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
                          Do we really want a buncha staver clones with the same 3 move combo just because it's spammable?
                          Too late, already happening.

                          *Starts attack of the clones theme song*

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Tender View Post
                            Anything with a sweep is going to win, especially when you have a round time to stand up after being swept.

                            Staves: Sweep > triple bash > another kind of sweep > triple bash > another form of sweep > triple bash > did I mention sweep?
                            Spears: Sweep > Impale x 10000 (If you got the speed)

                            Heck, I remember Milizinivi training nothing but sweep and triple bash and taking out top tiered players while in berserk with just those two moves and he was trash with everything else.

                            I don't think PCs have a round time when it comes to standing from a stomp, which is silly since because it's kind of a "Sweep".
                            You're trash brah!!! Milizinivi trained some staves blocks too give me some slack

                            That was a different time too.... that was when spinstrike was MOS.. It was GLORIOUS. I am pretty sure Mili was the reason the roundtimes got increased the first time around. Oh, and also why we now have to pay rps for comas.

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                            • #89
                              The only way playerbase can get GM attention is to continue polite, constructive, informative discussion - about imbalances, or whatever the subject may be. With that said, I think it's important for folks to contribute to this thread - previous discussions on this topic went ignored for various reasons, and yet the three-series-combo in staves remains a gaping issue.

                              Only you can prevent forest fires.

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                              • #90
                                The best way to fix the situation is not nerfs but buffs to all other skillsets. Nerfs will just lead the game to boring defensive PVP. If all weapons have the ability to do stepping, defensive, parting and lunging maneuvers then it will make for some very interesting fighting. The GM's should be using staves as the baseline and bringing other weapons up to its level.
                                .

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