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  • #91
    buff gladii please for the love of gods
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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    • #92
      Buff cestus.. stepping triple slash prz

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Kered View Post
        buff gladii please for the love of gods
        Avros Rapid Strike was recently sped up. That's enough to make swords OP again.

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        • #94
          Are tridents ever going to be worked on? Asking for a friend.

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          • #95
            Who has Japes' number? What can we bribe him with to come finish what he started? He was doing a great job adding to some of the skillsets, even testing the changes, but then dropped off suddenly before he was finished.

            A short term fix in the interom would be to simply REMOVE the complete failure of rolling rise (unless stunned, naturally) and just leave the slight chance to leave an opening. Maybe 25% of the time. Defensive sweep is just too accurate to allow for 1-2 free double hits for simply succeeding. No strength check, no nothing. Too overpowered

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            • #96
              "Avros Rapid Strike was recently sped up. That's enough to make swords OP again." As much as I would love to say yeah go Avros, everything leaves an opening, regular gladii damage is laughable at best, I know less ranks in spears and we are counting thousands and do more damage with a wooden spear than retalq gladii, something very wrong with that
              "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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              • #97
                I think in order to solve this problem we need to identify global faults/strengths in the combat system. Is staves OP or are the functions contained within it unique in a way that make it OP? I.e. multi-hitters, sweeps, back-forth stance dancing, etc.

                Are there ways to either
                A) mitigate those unique strengths by providing similar or new unique moves to the existing skill sets that counterbalance?
                b) Remove unique strengths of existing staves moves to bolster other skill sets WITHOUT punishing staves users. Elowynn suggested tactical openings.

                Are there logical changes we can make to other existing skill sets that need no explanation other than omg tridents sux buff mi?

                The fact of the matter is the GMs find staves to be in a good place based on the last response we got. So let's find ways to constructively level the playing field for other skill sets instead of trying to sway their opinions otherwise.

                Some suggestions:

                Tridents:
                They have three prongs. Lower damage on all stab/jab/piercing moves but have any move that uses the pointy side have a random multi-hitting mechanic. This allows multiple hits/crits and adds randomness to the damage.
                Sweep - Difficult sweep that can only be used from a retreated position. Why is a trident harder to knock someone over with and/or unable to sweep approached. Maybe someone can explain the physics to me. Possibly lower difficulty or add in a defensive sweep approached?
                Give back pitchforks as a real weapon and remove it as a practice weapon
                Reduce speed penalties on some skills IF realistic.
                Make some moves 1handed to allow for similar play to hoplite (trident wielding gladiators historically did use nets and shields)

                Whips:
                Maybe add a single handle block that only applies close range.
                Remove fast coil stance and apply bonus of sky circle to snares.

                Axe:

                Sliding slash - Historically axe wielding barbarians would charge cavalry and gut the horse to dismount them. A lunging slide aimed low that would leave you in the kneeling position.

                2hax:
                Spinning slash - A double hitting move that starts out at a distance and spins yourself toward the enemy. Would mesh well with falling strike
                More options for distance attacks.

                Grapples:
                Make them harder to avoid than just attacking or retreating. Retreating makes sense. Attacking someone charging at my belly shouldn't null the command.

                "Stance" skill sets

                Reduced sp cost for proficiency skill sets with higher prerequisites Maybe 75% of skill slot cost but raise requirements for skills. Shouldn't be as hard (or harder cause of how skill slots work) to train a proficiency as it is to train new weapon/trade.

                Knives - Unnerf newbie knives OR bring back sub mos attacks.

                Shields:

                Make shield charge usable by all shield using weapons

                Weapons in general:

                Make weapon material more meaningful. Speed or reforged boison has been king because you can't reforge retalq. Give purposeful choices to other materials. Retalq could be less raw than reforged boison but higher crit. Bronze could be sharper than iron but same roundtime. details would have to be looked at

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                • #98
                  Getting any combat changes are about as impossible as electing Bernie Sanders as president

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by herdias View Post
                    Are there ways to either
                    A) mitigate those unique strengths by providing similar or new unique moves to the existing skill sets that counterbalance?
                    What you're proposing, though, is more or less an entire overhaul of the combat system. Nerfing a few staves moves, and/or removing one of their sweeps, doesn't require the tweaking of a dozen other combat skill sets and subsets. Does it seem like there's available GM manpower to do a complete overhaul at this time? I've only been back a few months, but that doesn't seem to be the case - hopefully I'm wrong! But instead of adding, tweaking, and balancing moves for literally every other combat skillset, just to catch it up to staves, why not address the crystal-clear points already made in this post?
                    • Staves has three sweeps without overlapping success penalties. No other skillset even has two sweeps.
                    • Staves has three multi-hitters.
                    • Some of the stance up/down moves are inexplicably faster than manually changing stance. Other skillsets don't even have the ability to step up/down with attacks, and have to do so manually.
                    • As Elowynn points out, several staves attacks are pretty fast, and either grant additional mechanical bonuses, sweep, hit hard, or several of those things simultaneously.
                    The nerf-hammer is never fun for those who use those items/weapons/mechanics/powers/whatever, but but the whole point is that they're overpowered in the first place and need to be brought in line. While giving full stepping up/down skills to other sets - and other set-unique moves such as sweepstrike - would be ideal, it doesn't appear that's the realistic short- or long-term solution right now. Just my two sens.
                    Don't be fooled, Miri is a vegan.

                    Sicaslash: Parsnips are for girls.

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                    • There are interdependencies between all of them. Thatís why itís called a system. Look at knives for example. Adding in forced MOS completely changed the entire combat system by bringing slower weapons in line and basically made knives unviable. Iím all for balance but Iím skeptical that ďfixing just stavesĒ wonít have negative trickle down effects.

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                      • Originally posted by herdias View Post
                        There are interdependencies between all of them. Thatís why itís called a system. Look at knives for example. Adding in forced MOS completely changed the entire combat system by bringing slower weapons in line and basically made knives unviable. Iím all for balance but Iím skeptical that ďfixing just stavesĒ wonít have negative trickle down effects.
                        I'm confident fixing staves' OPness won't have overarching negative trickle down effects. And considering the abruptness in which the shield mid-chopping hole was "fixed", I don't think that kind of detailed analysis and simulations to combat impact are something we should hold our breath for. We/They adjust, test, learn and fix forward.

                        I think most remember when swords were the OP weapon of choice, they were the only skillset with stances, knockdowns, stuns, multiple multi-hitters, MOS attacks, weapon-freeing maneuvers, extra damage, kneeling blocks, etc. that could all be used back to back with no penalty or disadvantage whatsoever (save maybe the SP investment across multiple skillsets). I'd like to think that was fixed because of the realization that no 1 skillset should have all or even the majority of major advantages without counterbalancing disadvantages.

                        Just giving everything to everyone is not a strategic fix in the least and has as much thrill as up-entering sewer snakes. I'd like to think we all find it fair that every weapon should have a few strengths and a few weaknesses. Because of the nature of the game, yes all skills need a baseline for speed because a 7 second RT would let someone jump berserk and get double the RB and unless that 7 second RT move is a game ender, the disadvantage vastly outweighs the advantage. Anything speed related, stepping-stance related (i.e. massive changes in RB) or completely nullifying defenses (sweeps, feints and auto-stuns) really need to be balanced carefully or they lead to excessive advantages (aka Over Powered). Whips have an easy feint, but only at long range, as an example. Avros MOS rapid strike has the chance to drop your weapon.

                        Anyways, as a rule of thumb in my opinion, if something is easy to land, it probably shouldn't do (or be instantly followed by something that does) the most damage. If something hits hard, it probably shouldn't be the easiest to land. And if the GMs want to make something that does both those things, maybe it should be balanced by the attacked themselves leaving openings or being at a disadvantage. Just basic guidelines for balance in likely most games.
                        A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                        A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                        A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


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                        • Would slowing either all or at least some of the moves down not fix a good portion of the problem with this weapon? Would making the fangstave a second slower be a large enough change to see 30 characters unlearn and pick up clubs?

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                          • 1) +1 second RT to staves sspin. This makes it so that the sspin+dsweep+triplebash series needs to be done at strategically evaluated opportunities, not mindlessly spammed for big wins. There's no reason why sspin should be faster than a regular stance change, since it's a stance change AND defense penetrating multi-hitter in one.
                            2) -1 second RT from stance changes across the board so that anyone can follow up a stance change with an attack. This adds a unpredictability and danger component to PVP matches, like what Syden was advocating.The danger then becomes if you decide to use it to attack, you told your opponent you're open. Now a significant factor in a fight is mental, strategic. For example, you could be watching your opponent's rotation. You know he has a favorite big move. When he hasn't used it for a while, maybe he's gearing up with a stance change to use it. Time to prepare.
                            3) Rising from stave sweeps needs to be adjusted.
                            4) More weapons need stance-changing maneuvers. If not stance changing maneuvers, other weapons need a paradigm shifting move that can push a fight into aggression. Otherwise, like Syden has said, fights become defense oriented and quite boring.

                            I think #1 is the most glaring imbalance, and easiest and most necessary fix. The +1 second to sspin adjustment needs to be done, regardless of other combat changes down the line.

                            123513413

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                            • I think that if all four of Elowynn's suggestions were implemented, things would probably be in much better shape. While #1 will help, I am not really confident that +1 second to sspin alone will solve the imbalance. Staves need a more significant change or else other weapons & stance changing mechanics need to be updated to improve their comparative viability across the board.

                              There are a lot of ways the issue could be addressed, but I don't think that another minor tweak like that previous one is going to do the job. I think Dragaxus is right to point out:
                              Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                              if something is easy to land, it probably shouldn't do (or be instantly followed by something that does) the most damage. If something hits hard, it probably shouldn't be the easiest to land. And if the GMs want to make something that does both those things, maybe it should be balanced by the attacked themselves leaving openings or being at a disadvantage.
                              Maybe stepping moves should leave you unable to change stances for 8-10 seconds, similar to those crits that knock you into a certain stance. That would go a long way to offsetting the major advantage they get, and would prevent the sspin/dsweep combo. Generally speaking, if a move exists that allows you to instantly go into a more aggressive stance, the opponent needs to be able to take advantage of that stance opening, otherwise it is always going to outclass a weapon without such a stance-changing move.
                              [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.

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                              • Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
                                If not stance changing maneuvers, other weapons need a paradigm shifting move that can push a fight into aggression. Otherwise, like Syden has said, fights become defense oriented and quite boring.
                                For the record, I agree with this and think it would be the most interesting fix to the problem. However, it also is the most complicated, so I'm not sure if it's something that would be implemented. If we won't see changes like that across other weapons, then I feel that staves need to be "nerfed" to come into line with other weapons.
                                [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.

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