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Lets talk about staves.

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  • Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
    If not stance changing maneuvers, other weapons need a paradigm shifting move that can push a fight into aggression. Otherwise, like Syden has said, fights become defense oriented and quite boring.
    For the record, I agree with this and think it would be the most interesting fix to the problem. However, it also is the most complicated, so I'm not sure if it's something that would be implemented. If we won't see changes like that across other weapons, then I feel that staves need to be "nerfed" to come into line with other weapons.
    [Success: 95, Roll: 5] Pharse swings a cestus-covered fist sideways, lashing out at you with the blades of his weapon, but misses. You use the broad head of your short whip to knock aside the attack with a brute-force swat.


    • Originally posted by Irisa View Post
      For the record, I agree with this and think it would be the most interesting fix to the problem. However, it also is the most complicated, so I'm not sure if it's something that would be implemented. If we won't see changes like that across other weapons, then I feel that staves need to be "nerfed" to come into line with other weapons.
      Disclaimer: Other than not wanting to return to the days of smacking NPCs with what amounted to a slightly heftier pool noodle (which is where staves were for much of TEC's existence), I have little interest in weapon mechanics, PVP, etc. I'm making the following suggestion because I first mentioned it to Elowynn and she's too blunt, mean and Toph-like to make it as "nicely" as she wanted. I initially refused, but after trying to convince her that she could LEARN diplomacy, for several minutes, I realized it was an utterly lost cause and agreed to post it myself.

      Above, when you were mentioning that you didn't feel the +1 to sspin would be a sufficient nerf to rebalance the weapon, my suggestion would be that there's no harm in testing it out. I feel the best way to go about such a change would be to test it OOCly first (like Japes did on one or more occasions) and if the tests prove positive, make the change in the game world and see how it goes. If it turns out the Street Fighter-like combo El feels is responsible for most of the staves imbalance really is the key part of the problem, then great, you're done. If not, look at other small, incremental changes, and make those as well.
      Originally posted by Mast3rmind
      Celtor and Vladmir combined are like the Legion of Doom. Or maybe the wondertwins, although I'd be worried if Celtor was as furry as Vladmir. *nods sagely*
      Xianna exclaims to you, "And even when unconscious you still attract beautiful women, you lecher!"
      Ravenlark pats you.
      Ravenlark says to you, "I promise not to abuse you in your sleep. Much."


      • I think some of my favorite suggestions from this thread were that if you have a move that changes your stance, you should not be allowed to change stance for 8-10 seconds. The +1 to sspin sounds good too.

        I don't like the idea that every single weapon gets a parting move. It makes very little sense for a weapon like knives to want to escape--everything in that should be designed with the idea of closing the gap and attacking. For that matter, I would suggest more advancing moves rather than parting moves for melee weapons that want close anyway. The disadvantage being if someone does a parting move, the opponent now has the ability to hit with an easy to land advancing move that might have an effect like knockdown. Currently, brawling has one of the only truly worthwhile lunging moves in the game. No one is using knives difficult to hit with, not a significant damage upgrade to the move, knife lunge to really close distance in high end PVP because it's never, ever going to land. This is the case with too many advancing moves in too many skill sets--I think all of them should be reduced to an 'easy' move and SP refunded to anyone who spent extra into the skills.

        Since pankration doesn't have one (and who doesn't want a buff for their main?), I'd say a flying knee should be a good one. Auto aims high by default, the description could read as follows:
        A man in a hooded cloak springs forward, bringing his rear leg up with his knee forward in a leaping strike! A man in a faceplate wrought into the semblance of a man suffers a bruise to his face. He is knocked down from the impact!

        A charging club overhead swing that has the potential of ripping an opponents weapon from the hand when blocked.

        I like cestii's double lunge, but if it doesn't already have the ability to work with rolling rise to get back to one's feet, then I think that that should be adjusted so it could.

        Swords is alright, just reduce the difficulty of sword lunge from average to easy. Nelsor has an ability to do some good damage on closing distance, I'm not sure if those should be reduced in difficulty due to that.

        I liked the axe suggestion already made in the thread, about a stepping slashing one that aimed low.

        Ciaran's posts in the threads have been spot on. Knives have a SIGNIFICANT 'to-hit' penalty compared to virtually every other weapon in the game. For a high DPS output weapon, in theory it should be able to connect a LOT and have reductions in defenses accordingly. Making them viable mainly against prone targets isn't... isn't quite the way that's supposed to be IMHO. As has been said many times in the thread, the changes to speed/MOS really felt punishing for knives more than nearly every other skillset. Those changes made the "slow but strong" weapons fast and strong, and the "fast but weak" weapons slow and weak. There has never been a corresponding stat skill that would help with the disadvantage of low strength to compensate for what weapons like knives lost during that. It seems like the easiest fix would be a stat skill that increases strength, allows the damage to be done as if you had that strength of low end exceptional or whatever it is, but not the ability to carry stuff as if you were that strength for balance purposes.


        • Off topic, but someone who is not lazy (not it) should start a thread for each weapon or make one giant "wish list thread" that gets updated regularly so these ideas are organized and not on a STAVES SPECIFIC thread. Just sayin'.


          • I'm all for testing out +1 or -1 RT to certain moves, but my concern is that adjusting speed can have some of the most drastic impacts on a skillset. It can literally take a skillset from garbage to OP. The second you reach a point where 1 skillset can land 2 moves for another skillset's 1 move, I think it gets to be trickier to balance.

            Before getting into my own suggestions, I think it's worth noting that there are tons of great ideas in this thread and no single right answer.

            One of my biggest issues with combat lately is how OP sweeps are in general. They seem by far more OP than feinting ever was. A feint leaves 1 area without defenses until you break it or counter by triggering an action. A sweep leaves all areas covered by 1 difficult block, lowers your defensive stats and requires 3-4 RT for you to stand before you can counter. I haven't tested in ages (RIP beta room) but I'm pretty sure crits while laying hit harder than crits while standing too. Even if you recover from a sweep, you can STILL leave the same openings of a feint. For these reasons I think sweeps in their current state should be extremely difficult to land successfully. I honestly think if whips' easy feint could be done at close range and instantly followed up by a multi-hitter that it wouldn't be as OP as sweeps currently are. Personally, I care less about the stance changing multi-hitters than I do about balancing sweeps.

            What I personally would LOVE to see, but have no idea how hard it would be to implement, is openings that remove % of your defensive RB. (Random numbers for example) Small openings = 25% RB decrease, Medium openings = 50% RB decrease, Large openings = 75% RB decrease, Huge openings = 90% RB decrease. Then recovering from sweeps or even being feinted could be more strategic without being match-ending scenarios. The keeping an eye out for where the openings are, maybe even combining a small low opening and a medium mid opening, would feel strategic and keep things interesting. I see much more opportunity for combat mechanics that can be tweaks by 1 or 2 percent than I do with mechanics that are more all or nothing like standing vs laying.
            A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
            A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
            A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.

            “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs


            • Basic gladii damage is subpar at best. Avros is random for damage itís either great or wtf. Nelsor is decent. No other weapon leaves gapping openings when missing plus requires multiple levels of skill sets to be average.
              "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


              • +1 to Staves SSPIN.
                Reduce rise failures from stave sweeps.
                Make every day Earth Day.


                • ------------------------------------

                  # = time in seconds

                  0: Gladiator uses any attack (most weapon attacks are MOS+2 at top end)
                  0: Staver SSPINs (MOS+1). Gets the more aggressive RB to do it, too.
                  2: Staver DSWEEP (MOS+1). Also gets the more aggressive RB to do it.
                  3: Gladiator would be out of his original RT. Meaning, gladiator did not have time to respond to the original SSPIN before the DSWEEP occurs. Gladiator now is swept, and the rise failure is very high. Gladiator now has additional RT from being swept, or has left openings.
                  4: Staver triplebashes.

                  Staver does a couple moves to cycle. Repeats.


                  +1 to Staves SSPIN.
                  Reduce rise failures from stave sweeps.
                  Say no to drugs.