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Staves debate, take 57.

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  • Staves debate, take 57.

    In all of my years of playing a combat character, I've never seen such a huge outcry for a fix, just to be told that it's balanced and won't be changed.

    Staves have been OP for years now and it's time for it to change. Let me put it in to perspective, in case the GM's just don't look at character skillsets anymore.

    There are, off the top of my head, 3 characters that have over 20k TCR - All started with a different weapon. All now use staves as their primary weapon.
    There is a huge percentage of the playerbase that believes staves are OP.

    "I feel like this is a tweak that is needed, OUTSIDE of "weapon balancing"
    all the other stuff is fine and dandy, but this is an absolute necessity. it's like looking at a fixer upper and saying yeah, it'd be nice to get a contractor in for everything, that's what's truly needed - but goddamn if the house is on fire, ya really need to put that out first."

    Quote from a top end character and veteran player of the game...

    The sad thing about this, is that it shouldn't be that difficult to fix. We (the vast majority of the playerbase) aren't asking to re-code the entire skillset. We're asking for 1, probably 2 total attacks to have their round times increased. That's it. To be able to seamlessly fly through stances before I can even follow up with an attack, kinda seems broke. I truly seems broke. I don't think that's how it's suppose to work.. Why.. How would that seem to be fair? The 5 weapons I know on my main, none of them even have -1- stepping move, let alone 2 that can be done in a seamless motion.

    Here's some facts about staves currently.
    They have 3 sweeping attacks, 2 of which can not be risen from perfectly. The % is also pretty big. Likely bigger then any other skillset that has 1 sweep, not 2, cause that skillset doesn't exist.. and certainly not the skillset that has 3 sweeping moves, because that's only the staves skillset.
    They have 3 parting moves. 1 of which does top end damage, easily. No other parting move comes close.
    They have 3 triple hitting moves, besides the whip, knife, and needlestrike, no other weapon comes close to multi-hitters.
    They have the best defense of any polearm in the game.
    They have the ability to switch from bruising to slashing. Cool perk, but no real mechanical advantage, outside of being capable of making someone bleed from 8 places in 1 single fight (ask me how I know)


    All of these things.. Sure. Seem a little OP, but overall. That's balanced. I'll take it.

    What I can't understand is how you, the GM's think the ability to use a stepping move (triple hitter), that attacks in the more aggressive stance's rank bonus, and then, be capable of using a defensive move in a fluid round time, quicker then most people can get out of their current round time, is not broken.

    Pranzor is the GM in charge of combat, I heard? You say it's balanced? Why are all the top 5, maybe even 10 best combat characters in game switching to staves. That might be something that's not public knowledge, because a lof of those characters are wanting that to remain secret, but I'm not dropping any names, and I know it's true. There's a LOT of top end characters that use the stave. Why? Because it's a fun skillset? They picked up the whip/pankration/spear/axe/club/knife, all before they knew the stave. You mean to tell me that -all- of them thought that staves would be a fun skillset to pick up as a secondary weapon? The 10 other combat skills in the game didn't interest -any- of those players? Seems kinda... weird?

    Just fix the round time of stepping spin and dsweep, for the love of all things holy. It's been years, and dozens of posts and threads and @reports, just for them to be swept under the rug. You guys are making Seld a thing, and we're pumped. You fixed a decimal point that fixed catching massive fish. Cool. You guys are working on a trait system (which by the way, less people complained about, for like 3 weeks) and you guys are working on a solution. How about taking the 41 seconds to move a few numbers in the code and fix the RT's of one of the, if not the greatest combat inbalance that this game has ever seen.

    Detain was fixed.
    Ankle trap was fixed.
    Round strike neck was fixed.
    Chop mid was fixed.
    Stab and slash was fixed.
    Quickstring was fixed.

    The list goes on. These aren't things that completely altered how combat works within TEC, These are things that were broken. They were fixed. Some took way longer then others. Some took me getting caught afk scripting and banned for 5 years. Some took me and Jeanine doing nothing but ankle trapping in fights to annoy people. All of them were fixed.

    Again, it's not me, it's you. You the GM's, need to understand, that there's a LOT of players with extensive knowledge on the combat system, without even getting to look at the code, to know that SSPIN and DSWEEP are broken. Please fix.

    Sincerely; someone who's not going to proof read this message.
    Ty

  • #2
    Wait, so increase round times more for staves but leave the unarmed combat skill sets the way they are? Everything has holes. Staves are not perfect and I have had more than a staver. Still have 4 others. They already revamped sspin and dsweep twice. Perhaps your facing the characters with 20k afk ranks instead of normal characters.
    blank kills you with blank's bare hands.
    You are slain.

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    • #3
      point of interest... Tridents are awesome.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Copen View Post
        Wait, so increase round times more for staves but leave the unarmed combat skill sets the way they are? Everything has holes. Staves are not perfect and I have had more than a staver. Still have 4 others. They already revamped sspin and dsweep twice. Perhaps your facing the characters with 20k afk ranks instead of normal characters.
        Again, I'm not trying to alter the course of combat altogether. I'm looking at trying to see to it that the two stepping moves, offensive -and- defensive, can't be used before I even get an attack off.

        I can't go to the store and buy a pack of smokes without running in to 5 stavers that you just defended! Anyone get that reference? Also, I'm not calling you out Copen. <3

        I have a bandit staver. This change that the majority of us are wanting, would kinda screw up how he does things.. I play a brawler/pank and they have their advantages too. I'm not wanting to tweak every other skillset to make them level. I'm trying to throw water on a burning house before I think about what type of carpet to put in the bedroom.

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        • #5
          art has remarkable speed, and unless you have ridiculously low speed i.e. poor. he is capped at speed. due to the weight of the weapon which negated the entire point of that characters trait choice due to round time changes already. It's not a matter of changing it. Unarmed or ridiculously overweighted characters have no chance to react. I just see this all the time and usually keep my mouth shut on mechanical things. Double maces don't get used often because it's stupid slow even with better speed. Oh and reflexes puts pretty much every other person right there at the same speed as him so speed is not even remotely important. I see others attack faster than me all the time and I use the hell out of macros.
          blank kills you with blank's bare hands.
          You are slain.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'd like to hear from someone who doesn't main a staver too. I'd also like to know his ranks compared to Koppe's, and his stats, if they're close, I'd like to spar, even if it's friendly.

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            • #7
              You won't fix it by nerfing staves. You will fix it by buffing and rebalancing all the other skillsets up to the level of staves.
              .

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Syden View Post
                You won't fix it by nerfing staves. You will fix it by buffing and rebalancing all the other skillsets up to the level of staves.
                I don't get this. I mean, I do, but why take all that time and effort to get it up to par with a mechanic that is simply flawed, when you can just fix that flaw, simply

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                • #9
                  I've literally been saying it for years. Staves are insanely overpowered. Not even a little. They're unrivaled in every category. the accuracy of defensive sweep, and the nerf to rolling rise. Boom, fix that and they'd be at least reasonable

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                  • #10
                    Staves is massively op. The base problem is crits, staves gets its power from being able to land triple breaks doing 100hp damage. Crits while prone need to be massively toned. Dex bonus to crit quality needs to be replaced by strength. Dex should be chance to hit and chance to crit, strength should be base damage and quality of crit.Knives isn't OP because they only have one triple hitter and a few double hitters, which are all pretty damn hard to land, and knives doesn't have 3 sweeps so they wont be prone crits either.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tweninger View Post
                      I can't go to the store and buy a pack of smokes without running in to 5 stavers that you just defended! Anyone get that reference? .
                      I got it. Some people do learn the stave as a secondary because we like the weapon and not for PvP advantages.

                      I'll catch you on the flip side.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Our focus will likely be on making positive changes to other skill sets before making any negative changes. The priority remains on fixing the trait system, a result of a quick fix that had huge impacts on the combat system. There are currently no plans to make any negative changes to the staves skill set, and we do not plan on making all weapon sets entirely homogenous. As I have said before, the combat system is diverse and the hope is to keep it that way.

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                        • #13
                          There's a big difference between homogeneous and balanced. I love all the changes happening, and am excited to see what new possibilities the new traits system will bring, but combat balances are a living breathing thing. Bring back BRP!

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                          • #14
                            BRP would be sweet, but really we're asking for a small tweak on what's considered the biggest inbalance of any skill or skillset in the game.. One that's been tweaked, but not fixed. Keep tweaking it, and you're there. How long did it take to tweak the last dsweep fix? My guess is less then it takes for the GM's to find an excuse not to fix this.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pranzor View Post
                              Our focus will likely be on making positive changes to other skill sets before making any negative changes. The priority remains on fixing the trait system, a result of a quick fix that had huge impacts on the combat system. There are currently no plans to make any negative changes to the staves skill set, and we do not plan on making all weapon sets entirely homogenous. As I have said before, the combat system is diverse and the hope is to keep it that way.
                              Regardless of what else is done to nudge and tweak other weapons, how is the sspin/dsweep combo good for weapons balancing? This HAS to be changed, regardless of everything else. Why not now? You state that other things are a priority until weapons can be looked at as a whole, and that many other things are a priority first. That means weapons balancing is a long ways away. Why can't this small, unreasonably OP, unbalanced thing be tweaked in the meanwhile, since it's so clear?

                              To iteratire: sspin/dsweep. It is too fast. This happens:

                              ------------------------------------

                              # = time in seconds

                              0: Gladiator uses any attack (most weapon attacks are MOS+2 at top end)
                              0: Staver SSPINs (MOS+1). Gets the more aggressive RB to do it, too.
                              1:
                              2: Staver DSWEEP (MOS+1). Also gets the more aggressive RB to do it.
                              3: Gladiator would be out of his original RT. Meaning, gladiator did not have time to respond to the original SSPIN before the DSWEEP occurs. Gladiator now is swept, and the rise failure is very high. Gladiator now has additional RT from being swept, or has left openings.
                              4: Staver triplebashes, or spinstrikes, or pivots.

                              Staver does a couple moves to cycle. Repeats.

                              ------------------------------------

                              The damage stuff with staves is a separate issue (triplehitting moves in the competitively fastest skillset...), and can be looked at later. Whenever that later is appears to be a long ways away. Meanwhile, please change the RT to sspin/dsweep. This is not balanced regardless of what else is done to any weapon.

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